Meet the next President of the United States

[Keorythe]

Nah, that's fine. I just think the usual language("The US has gone crazy! etc.) is overblown and silly.

To be fair, pretty-much every English-speaking country is to the left of the USA so they have a point.

Can you name any speaking country that is to the right of the USA?

The problem is you're wrong. It's not about whether or not you're right wing. You can be right wing without the insane shit that comes out of the republican core. The actual American system is not really that far right wing - certainly not enough to say "the US has gone crazy" especially considering how much flexibility they have from state to state. So claiming that herschel's remark is wrong because they actually are right wing is totally the wrong approach and doomed to failure. Saudi arabia is a p. good example but I'm sure there are many.

It's insane because of things like Herman Cain and Rush Limbaugh, because of freedom fries and 9/11, "i live close to russia so I'm good at foreign policy", Barack "Hussein" Obama the closet muslim who's not really a citizen, intelligent design should be taught in schools, HPV vaccine gives you brain damage, commercials for a presidential nomination where the guy takes a long cool drag off his cigarette at the end, and man someone help me with this list because it's huge.

None of these things are necessary to be a right winger. They're just fucking insane and stupid.

The US has an absurdly nasty indoctrination problem, and unsurprisingly it stems from the deep evangelicals and is largely religiously based. It's hilarious to see people be so bitter about Islam/Muslim nations when the core of American fundamentalism is EASILY as crazy, even if they're not as outright violent they're absolutely pathetically ignorant.

While I can agree that there are some hard core fundamentalists that could match some of the Islamists, trying to make it sound like it's a common thing is really stretching it. Mostly I blame Southern Baptists.

Everything Frug posted has nothing to do with indoctrination and everything to do with laziness or different point of views. For the most part, the West is willing to believe what they want to believe and find the outlets that feed them their desired information despite various free media outlets. I just saw the fascism post by Bart which was largely a bunch of verbal diarrhea using terms he really didn't understand and associating them in ways that didn't really make sense especially when compared with some of the demands coming out of the OWS. And yet he get +1's out of it. No one really questioned it and are going to believe what they've been told to believe. Indoc is alive and well with both sides right now but how it's used is across the spectrum.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

While I can agree that there are some hard core fundamentalists that could match some of the Islamists, trying to make it sound like it's a common thing is really stretching it. Mostly I blame Southern Baptists.

It's common enough in some areas and to some points of view to cause American politics to be a circus.

Everything Frug posted has nothing to do with indoctrination and everything to do with laziness or different point of views. For the most part, the West is willing to believe what they want to believe and find the outlets that feed them their desired information despite various free media outlets.

Which...is...indoctrination. In the sense that they are given a set of beliefs or predispositions to something and refuse to believe anything else. The republican AND democratic parties, but MORE the republican party right now, says things that are quite often just on the face of it totally untrue. Things that anybody with half a brain could look at and on their own figure out is political propoganda (or which has, sometimes literally, a competing point of view located one click away or even side by side)... and yet they will call anything other than their chosen belief false.

yes I may be overstating the number of people who are truly susceptible to it, but its extremism (on both sides, to be fair), which requires cognitive dissonance almost, which is bringing the govt. to a halt.

[Don Rumata]

I just saw the fascism post by Bart which was largely a bunch of verbal diarrhea using terms he really didn't understand and associating them in ways that didn't really make sense especially when compared with some of the demands coming out of the OWS. And yet he get +1's out of it. No one really questioned it and are going to believe what they've been told to believe.

Quoting for awesomeness. So much resentment, so much butthurt, so much projection... Really lays bare the core issue, namely, lots of people in America simply lost the ability to comprehend intelligent, well-presented arguments. Or, more accurately, never had it in the first place.

[Tarminic]

yes I may be overstating the number of people who are truly susceptible to it, but its extremism (on both sides, to be fair), which requires cognitive dissonance almost, which is bringing the govt. to a halt.

One of the most impressive examples of cognitive dissonance in american politics is the fact that most Objectivists are also religious fundamentalists.
"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil"-The Bible
"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction."-Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

[Don Rumata]

One of the most impressive examples of cognitive dissonance in american politics is the fact that most Objectivists are also religious fundamentalists.
"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil"-The Bible
"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction."-Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

This is why I disagree with Barth on his thesis that Republicanism is akin to Fascism. You can blame Fascism for lots of things, but at least, at its core, it's message "Strength trough unity" is consistent. Fascism emerged as a response to humiliation of Germany and Italy in WWI, it's message was the opposite of "Liberal" ideology of Liberté, égalité, fraternité, it was "neo-tribalism", "us vs. them" mentality. Nazis were modern equivalent of Spartans (who are, ironically, are lionized by modern media, that conveniently forgets the fact that Spartans were nothing but bunch of over-militarized, misogynistic slave owners). They were serious about making themselves and their country strong, of course, at the expense of other countries.

Republicans have no intention of making their country strong, they are only interested in making themselves, as individuals, rich. Fascists built autobahns and made trains run on time. Republicans are against federal highways and railroads. All this "support the troops" bullshit is just bunch of pudgy middle-aged males with small dicks trying to live their dreams of being virile warriors by sending other people to die. Just look at those comical "militias" in Midwest or South for proof. At least Nazis fought for what they believed in. Republicans make others fight their little wars.

Modern Republicanism is just a relic of Cold War, a distorted mirror image of Communism, and just as nonsensical. Just like die-hard communists were convinced that in the future, there would be no money, Republicans are convinced that the future IS money, and nothing else. It is not a rigorous philosophy, it is just bunch of slogans and "common-sense ideas" designed to appeal to most selfish, uneducated people in one specific country.

Fascism, on some level, can be rationalized. Republicanism cannot.

[Reed Tiburon]

this thread

[Keorythe]

Which...is...indoctrination. In the sense that they are given a set of beliefs or predispositions to something and refuse to believe anything else.

Ok maybe it was semantics. Indoc falls under not allowed to believe while refusing to believe would still fall under free will. Many people will seek an echo chamber rather than challenge their views constantly which is more due to apathy than indoc. Indoc, you're given a set of core belief and are not allowed to deviate. Period. This is hardly something that is showing up more on the right unless you are talking strictly about religion which have some core tenets set in stone.

One of the most impressive examples of cognitive dissonance in american politics is the fact that most Objectivists are also religious fundamentalists.
"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil"-The Bible
"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction."-Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

This is why I disagree with Barth on his thesis that Republicanism is akin to Fascism. You can blame Fascism for lots of things, but at least, at its core, it's message "Strength trough unity" is consistent. Fascism emerged as a response to humiliation of Germany and Italy in WWI, it's message was the opposite of "Liberal" ideology of Liberté, égalité, fraternité, it was "neo-tribalism", "us vs. them" mentality. Nazis were modern equivalent of Spartans (who are, ironically, are lionized by modern media, that conveniently forgets the fact that Spartans were nothing but bunch of over-militarized, misogynistic slave owners). They were serious about making themselves and their country strong, of course, at the expense of other countries.

Just a point. Romans. Not Spartans. They believed themselves a resurgent Roman empire. They even co-opted some of their symbology and uniform standards. And to be honest they followed the Roman principles pretty clearly.

The Support the Troops message is a universal message and is a throwback to the old Vietnam hippy "baby killers" stance on things. Especially as the hippies are grown up and it's their kids who are going off to war. The whole militia movement has nothing to do with support the troops or the wars in Iraq/Afghanistan as they've been around long before the Cole was even bombed. Nor did they even amount to any significant numbers. After Oklahoma, most cleaned up their act and purged themselves morphing into the whole Disaster Preparation movement with the very extreme butthurts leaning towards tiny WROL types.

Maybe you should just stick to one liners? Leave the verbiage to Bart.

[Don Rumata]

Just a point. Romans. Not Spartans. They believed themselves a resurgent Roman empire. They even co-opted some of their symbology and uniform standards.

You are confusing Nazi Germany and USofA. I suggest you take a look at the reverse of old American dime. Notice something interesting? This bunch of sticks tied up with ribbons? Know how it's called? It's called fasces. The same one as in fascism. Next time they show House of Representative, take a look at the flag. That's fasces on the either side of it. Long before Nazis were emulating the "symbology and uniform standards", American "Founding Fathers" were imitating Roman Republic much, much closer, down to Senators, plantations and, yes, slaves.

Leave the verbiage to Bart.

I'll admit, I do not have the benefits of them fancy book-learnin' that Bart has.

[Tyrus Tenebros]

Ok maybe it was semantics. Indoc falls under not allowed to believe while refusing to believe would still fall under free will. Many people will seek an echo chamber rather than challenge their views constantly which is more due to apathy than indoc. Indoc, you're given a set of core belief and are not allowed to deviate. Period. This is hardly something that is showing up more on the right unless you are talking strictly about religion which have some core tenets set in stone.

I suppose taking your definition I would more accurately say that "because the religious right is more used to being indoctrinated (by their religion), they are more receptive to people who would like them to "take it on faith" so to speak, in other arenas as well." Being close-minded and ultra-defensive of their beliefs and "what is right" is far more second nature than it is to people who are not highly religious.

In fact, if you want to get right down to it, the ability to deny obvious falsehoods and produce cognitive dissonance is absolutely core to the evangelical system: re: dinosaurs, non-believers not being struck down, the bible mentioning some really awkward-to-believe-in-passages (it is disgraceful for women to speak in Church 1 COR 14:34-35) yet also having to be the absolute truth of god. This completely prepares them to believe another party willing to take advantage of that mental state to enforce more "infallible" ideas upon them.



I stand by "easily indoctrinated" as a pretty convenient and understandable shorthand for this phenomenon, but if you want to get semantic I'll get more specific And again, both sides have their loonies, the Republicans have just made acquiring loony votes an institutionalized thing. The religious right's modern social agenda has NO PLACE in codified law whatsoever in the United States and it prevents me from voting from the Republicans at almost any cost. Something about enforcing a particular moral code through law and simultaneously waving a flag for the "Land of the Free" makes me rage.

[Spaztick]

Today I learned Republicans are like Fascists if Fascists were lazy quitters. The irony of that is physically painful for me. I can feel it in my sternum.

[Sponk]

Retiring member of Congress Barney Frank on the House under Republican rule:

"It consists half of people who think like Michele Bachmann and half of people who are afraid of losing a primary to people who think like Michele Bachmann and that leaves very little room to work things out."

[Herschel Yamamoto]

Everything Frug posted has nothing to do with indoctrination and everything to do with laziness or different point of views. For the most part, the West is willing to believe what they want to believe and find the outlets that feed them their desired information despite various free media outlets.

Which...is...indoctrination. In the sense that they are given a set of beliefs or predispositions to something and refuse to believe anything else. The republican AND democratic parties, but MORE the republican party right now, says things that are quite often just on the face of it totally untrue. Things that anybody with half a brain could look at and on their own figure out is political propoganda (or which has, sometimes literally, a competing point of view located one click away or even side by side)... and yet they will call anything other than their chosen belief false.

yes I may be overstating the number of people who are truly susceptible to it, but its extremism (on both sides, to be fair), which requires cognitive dissonance almost, which is bringing the govt. to a halt.

I think it's more accurately termed an echo chamber. Indoctrination is forcing your views on others, an echo chamber is where you set things up so that the views you already have go unchallenged.

yes I may be overstating the number of people who are truly susceptible to it, but its extremism (on both sides, to be fair), which requires cognitive dissonance almost, which is bringing the govt. to a halt.

One of the most impressive examples of cognitive dissonance in american politics is the fact that most Objectivists are also religious fundamentalists.
"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil"-The Bible
"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction."-Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

Yeah, objectivists scare me. It's such a flagrant cult of personality, but yet they recoil in terror if you accuse them of being religious. A lot of their views have a grain of truth to them, and there's value to having a devil's advocate to challenge the basic assumptions of moral systems, but their fixation on Rand is really creepy(just like Rand herself, of course).

[Dogbeast]

August 1988 interview...sounds similar to 2011 tbh.

Skip ahead to 2:10 for talk about Federal Reserve and Inflation.



And yes, I support this man.

[Maximillian]

Perhaps the greatest irony is that China and the Russian Federation are far, far closer to Bart's definition of fascism that the US Republicans.

Probably the smartest comment I ever heard about the difference between the modern hard left and the hard right is that the hard left will put major differences aside to gain power, and then turn on each other, while the hard right will tear itself apart over single issues (say The Right to Life).

That is why i don't think the Republicans stand a snowball's chance in 2012 - they simply can't put their differences aside long enough to get behind a moderate just-right-of-centerist (in US terms) candidate to win the election and then fight it out over policy differences. Instead they are fighting it out now and its ugly and every battle loses the eventual ticket winners more and more of the base. Obama and Hiliary Cliton were able to put obviously bitter personal differences aside to win, the Republicans just don't have it in their natures at present.

Maybe another 4 years away from levers of Government will knock some sense into them - its not who YOU find acceptable, it's who the millions of American voters finds acceptable that will win you elections.

[Frug]

While I can agree that there are some hard core fundamentalists that could match some of the Islamists, trying to make it sound like it's a common thing is really stretching it. Mostly I blame Southern Baptists.

It's common enough in some areas and to some points of view to cause American politics to be a circus.

Everything Frug posted has nothing to do with indoctrination and everything to do with laziness or different point of views. For the most part, the West is willing to believe what they want to believe and find the outlets that feed them their desired information despite various free media outlets.

Which...is...indoctrination. In the sense that they are given a set of beliefs or predispositions to something and refuse to believe anything else.

The problem here is you're responding to one of Keoryethe's rage posts where he's trying bludgeon away things he doesn't like. To say the kind of inflammatory rhetoric that comes directly from media outlets is "laziness" and "different point of views" is just a little transparent, isn't it? Obviously it's a different point of view. Or at least I hope it's a different point of view than most people here. It's also, obviously, a lot more than that.

Likewise the dismissal that it's not very common, as if it makes no difference that it's coming from some leading figures of the movement and a particular news agency.

Not sure why you're bothering. He's mad about Barth's earlier rant and feels the need to start defending his worldview here too.

[Cassiuss]

August 1988 interview...sounds similar to 2011 tbh.

Skip ahead to 2:10 for talk about Federal Reserve and Inflation.



And yes, I support this man.

Best man for the job and sadly the lame stream media says nothing about him.

This is the US's saving grace and of course the propaganda machine will reelect Obama...

[fig]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-IvckPzn8M

Ron Paul on why he supports the Citizens United ruling and why he thinks corporate lobbying should be unrestrained.

[Exortius]

Ron Paul is a joke, the term "lame stream media" is a joke, calling republicans fascists is a joke. Lots of jokes in this thread.

[Lief Siddhe]

have no idea what's going on in US politics atm, but that Ron Paul grandaddy has some smart things to say for a republican, or actually for a politician of any party. It's funny to see the oposing candidates/interviewer foaming at the mouth and almost accusing him of supporting Al-Qaeda just because he said "well, our policy towards these countries in the last 20 years caused some of their extremists to hate us so much that they want to kill us, it's common sense."

[Sakura Nihil]

Best man for the job and sadly the lame stream media says nothing about him.

This is the US's saving grace and of course the propaganda machine will reelect Obama...