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Thread: Star Wars Episode IX, The Rise of Skywalker

  1. #441
    Duckslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilalaunebör View Post
    Luke is good at some things and shit at others, doesnt get anything for free (except Bens help, for plot reasons we are told later),
    He's a superlative X-Wing pilot based on absolutely zero training, a natural with the Force (remember he's able to use the Force to retrieve his lightsaber in the ice cave with literally no training), has an X-Wing that nobody seems to mind him borrowing and going all the way to Dagobah with, and I'm pretty sure they never paid Han Solo for the trip to Alderaan.

    Rey continually fails at her Jedi training and is saved in the first film by a literal deus ex machina.

    Both characters have very similar traits and yet one gets shit on and one gets excused. There's a reason for that.
    Luke was not a superlative X-wing pilot.

    He was good enough to go to the academy. However his actually piloting was not the best. He never flies the Millennium Falcon. During the Death Star attack in A New Hope he is a subordinate pilot. First he stuffs up his strafing run and "gets a little cooked but I'm ok" He shoots down one Tie Fighter but then gets one on his six that he can't shake and is saved by Wedge. During the trench run all he does is fly straight. Even then Vader would have killed him if Han hadn't returned at the last moment. He only makes the reactor shot because Ben tells him to turn off the targeting computer and use the force.

    In the empire strikes back he gets shot down during the battle of Hoth, crashes his X-wing into a swamp on Dagoba, then flies to the cloud city.

    In Return of the Jedi the only time he flies is an imperial shuttle right at the end.

    Han (asteroid field) and Lando (inside the second Death Star) are both better pilots than Luke is shown to be.

    In fact Luke's story is one of being over-matched and relying on others for rescue right up until the final battle with Vader. And it is Vader who saves Luke from (AND KILLS GOD DAMN IT) the Emperor.

    In fact all the Characters in the original three movies at some point had to be rescued by the actions of the other main cast members.
    Luke is constantly being rescued. He is nowhere near a Mary Sue

  2. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilalaunebör View Post
    Luke is good at some things and shit at others, doesnt get anything for free (except Bens help, for plot reasons we are told later),
    He's a superlative X-Wing pilot based on absolutely zero training, a natural with the Force (remember he's able to use the Force to retrieve his lightsaber in the ice cave with literally no training), has an X-Wing that nobody seems to mind him borrowing and going all the way to Dagobah with, and I'm pretty sure they never paid Han Solo for the trip to Alderaan.

    Rey continually fails at her Jedi training and is saved in the first film by a literal deus ex machina.

    Both characters have very similar traits and yet one gets shit on and one gets excused. There's a reason for that.
    Luke was not a superlative X-wing pilot.

    He was good enough to go to the academy. However his actually piloting was not the best. He never flies the Millennium Falcon. During the Death Star attack in A New Hope he is a subordinate pilot. First he stuffs up his strafing run and "gets a little cooked but I'm ok" He shoots down one Tie Fighter but then gets one on his six that he can't shake and is saved by Wedge. During the trench run all he does is fly straight. Even then Vader would have killed him if Han hadn't returned at the last moment. He only makes the reactor shot because Ben tells him to turn off the targeting computer and use the force.

    In the empire strikes back he gets shot down during the battle of Hoth, crashes his X-wing into a swamp on Dagoba, then flies to the cloud city.

    In Return of the Jedi the only time he flies is an imperial shuttle right at the end.

    Han (asteroid field) and Lando (inside the second Death Star) are both better pilots than Luke is shown to be.

    In fact Luke's story is one of being over-matched and relying on others for rescue right up until the final battle with Vader. And it is Vader who saves Luke from (AND KILLS GOD DAMN IT) the Emperor.

    In fact all the Characters in the original three movies at some point had to be rescued by the actions of the other main cast members.
    Luke is constantly being rescued. He is nowhere near a Mary Sue
    This is why it baffles me when people say that TLJ "ruined his character," when his entire story is riddled with failures and the other two Jedi he knew turned into weird lone hermits too. Yoda probably milked swamp bats, but I guess seeing him do that would have also ruined his character somehow.
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  3. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    A T-16. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/T-16_skyhopper

    Not an X-Wing at all.

    It's comparable to the X-Wing in the same way that a Fiat 500 is comparable to a Ferrari Testarossa.
    I'd prefer the Fiat tbfh

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  4. #444
    Donor Pattern's Avatar
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    Seems painfully apparent now in retrospect...


    I guess star wars is now going to be about bloodlines and nostalgia. So... I'm going to bail. Used to love star was just for the spaceships alone, but while the prequel trilogy excelled at introducing all the wild and wonderful stuff, even the Mandalorian can't move beyond tie fighters and sandcrawlers.

  5. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruri View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lilalaunebör View Post
    Luke is good at some things and shit at others, doesnt get anything for free (except Bens help, for plot reasons we are told later),
    He's a superlative X-Wing pilot based on absolutely zero training, a natural with the Force (remember he's able to use the Force to retrieve his lightsaber in the ice cave with literally no training), has an X-Wing that nobody seems to mind him borrowing and going all the way to Dagobah with, and I'm pretty sure they never paid Han Solo for the trip to Alderaan.

    Rey continually fails at her Jedi training and is saved in the first film by a literal deus ex machina.

    Both characters have very similar traits and yet one gets shit on and one gets excused. There's a reason for that.
    Luke was not a superlative X-wing pilot.

    He was good enough to go to the academy. However his actually piloting was not the best. He never flies the Millennium Falcon. During the Death Star attack in A New Hope he is a subordinate pilot. First he stuffs up his strafing run and "gets a little cooked but I'm ok" He shoots down one Tie Fighter but then gets one on his six that he can't shake and is saved by Wedge. During the trench run all he does is fly straight. Even then Vader would have killed him if Han hadn't returned at the last moment. He only makes the reactor shot because Ben tells him to turn off the targeting computer and use the force.

    In the empire strikes back he gets shot down during the battle of Hoth, crashes his X-wing into a swamp on Dagoba, then flies to the cloud city.

    In Return of the Jedi the only time he flies is an imperial shuttle right at the end.

    Han (asteroid field) and Lando (inside the second Death Star) are both better pilots than Luke is shown to be.

    In fact Luke's story is one of being over-matched and relying on others for rescue right up until the final battle with Vader. And it is Vader who saves Luke from (AND KILLS GOD DAMN IT) the Emperor.

    In fact all the Characters in the original three movies at some point had to be rescued by the actions of the other main cast members.
    Luke is constantly being rescued. He is nowhere near a Mary Sue
    This is why it baffles me when people say that TLJ "ruined his character," when his entire story is riddled with failures and the other two Jedi he knew turned into weird lone hermits too. Yoda probably milked swamp bats, but I guess seeing him do that would have also ruined his character somehow.
    Because the other jedi he knew that went hermit did it to protect the legacy of the jedi order and it's philosophy and to watch over him growing up respectively. The reason it ruined his character is that they didn't give up, and neither did he until Johnson got a hold of the reigns. Luke in the original trilogy is a study in optimism and perseverance paying dividends, in TLJ they just decided lol he's a cynical failure now because they forgot (or couldn't be bothered) to write a fucking plot.

    I guess star wars is now going to be about bloodlines and nostalgia. So... I'm going to bail. Used to love star was just for the spaceships alone, but while the prequel trilogy excelled at introducing all the wild and wonderful stuff, even the Mandalorian can't move beyond tie fighters and sandcrawlers.
    don't worry, Kennedy and all her cronies are getting axed this year, Filoni and Faverau who've done an absolutely stellar job with the mandalorian setting the exact right tone and hitting every single note are going to be taking over.

    Seriously if you haven't, go watch the mandalorian, that's what star wars is going to look like from now on, and it's damn good looking.
    Last edited by DevilDude; January 2 2020 at 10:46:36 PM.

  6. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDude View Post
    Because the other jedi he knew that went hermit did it to protect the legacy of the jedi order and it's philosophy and to watch over him growing up respectively. The reason it ruined his character is that they didn't give up, and neither did he until Johnson got a hold of the reigns. Luke in the original trilogy is a study in optimism and perseverance paying dividends, in TLJ they just decided lol he's a cynical failure now because they forgot (or couldn't be bothered) to write a fucking plot.
    Going in reverse order here, Johnson did write a plot, you just didn't like it. It's extremely similar to Obi-Wan's experience with Anakin actually - master takes on an apprentice, sees him turning to the dark side, struggles with the idea of killing him before he turns, ends up hurting him worse and ensuring his downfall, then runs away and hides because the galaxy goes to shit and they couldn't stop it. And at the end of TLJ Luke does persevere, and his optimism is restored, and it's the end of his journey only this time he didn't just fail and then get rescued, he failed and then set things right by his own hands.

    And where in any of the original films is it ever implied that Obi-Wan and Yoda were "protecting the legacy of the jedi" or watching over him growing up? Obi-Wan lives on Tatooine and Luke knows his name but literally calls him a strange old hermit, and it's pretty clear from their meeting that it's the first time they've ever interacted. Sure Obi-Wan told Luke he should become a Jedi and gave him Anakin's lightsaber, but it's not ever stated or implied that he had some sort of plan for doing this, or that he'd ever run in to Luke at all if R2 hadn't been sent on a delivery quest. If you want to pretend that Obi-Wan was somehow saving Luke from Tuscan Raiders his whole life or secretly helping him bullseye wamprats with the force go right ahead, but that's not on the screen.

    (related side note, I just watched the Harmy 2.5 despecialized edition of the first film and holy moly is it gorgeous)

    Seriously if you haven't, go watch the mandalorian, that's what star wars is going to look like from now on, and it's damn good looking.
    Eh, I'm on board with calling it Meh-delorian. It's far far better than Rise of Skywalker in my book but it's also a pretty rote story, and the final episode was so unevenly directed that I was honestly shocked when I saw it was done by Taika Waititi. He's usually rock solid and Thor: Ragnarok remains probably my favorite Marvel film of the whole stable. It does look really damn good for a TV show, it reminded me of ST: Discovery that way, and I agree that the tone feels right. But during the prison break episode when the guy said "I'm putting together a team" I almost said out loud to no one "You son of a bitch, I'm in!" then had a good laugh.

    Hopefully they're just going through the "we have to establish the character and universe" phase this season, I'd like to see them take it somewhere a little more interesting going forward.
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  7. #447
    Donor Pattern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDude View Post
    The reason it ruined his character is that they didn't give up, and neither did he until Johnson got a hold of the reigns. Luke in the original trilogy is a study in optimism and perseverance paying dividends, in TLJ they just decided lol he's a cynical failure now because they forgot (or couldn't be bothered) to write a fucking plot.
    This is a prime example of the idiocy of TLJ haters.

    It's not like there were many fucking options for why Luke was completely missing in TFA. Perhaps if he hadn't been turned into a fucking McGuffin in the first film. It's an argument I see endlessly regurgitated and it has more to do with the type of characters certain audience members expected to see (2d superheros).

  8. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    This is a prime example of the idiocy of TLJ haters.
    "But these things DO matter. The destruction of SW is part of the ongoing culture war against the West, so there *is* more at stake here."

    "the ongoing culture war against the West"



    "the ongoing culture war against the West"





    Just, wow.
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  9. #449
    Dorvil Barranis's Avatar
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    You can still hate TLJ without being an idiot. I hated it, but didn't really have a problem with Luke.
    "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Zhuge Liang


  10. #450
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    Watched it today, better than the TLJ but not TFA.

    Good first half with loreful stuff and a highly convoluted second half with characters introduced on a whim
      Spoiler:
    Hello Finn's third love interest
    but at least we got to see
      Spoiler:
    Mark Parkman
    go up in a ball of flames.

    The Mandalorian is better along with Rogue One and The Force Awakens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Mandolorian is over, it was good but not truly great. Didn't go far enough with the western themes and I didn't really feel myself caring about any of the characters very much. Pedro Pascal did his best but it's hard to act behind a helmet.

    spoiler thoughts
      Spoiler:
    Was disappointed Bill Burr was an antagonist character. Mando really needs a sidekick that isn't Baby Yoda. Also disappointed that Werner Herzog got killed by Moff Gus Fring who ends up being the real baddie and possesses the Darksaber.

    Also the whole "this is the way" thing about the Mandalorian helmet was made up for this show (so I guess it's canon now), Mandalorians in Rebels were seen without helmets and the Darksaber is featured heavily in that series. Really don't know why they chose to have Pascal behind a helmet the entire series except for one brief moment.
      Spoiler:
    Bill Burr was shoe horned in for an episode that was the weakest one. Its like the casino in The Last Jedi.

    I think he did pretty well behind the helmet and am going to call you out for thinking locking him behind a helmet was a bad idea. Werrner Herzog was indeed a fine character but I am not disappointed in the other baddy either. I wasn't aware of the canon behind the helmets but I guess they could explain it somehow if they can be bothered [different sect?].
    Last edited by Meester; January 3 2020 at 05:47:29 PM.

  11. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruri View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    This is a prime example of the idiocy of TLJ haters.
    "But these things DO matter. The destruction of SW is part of the ongoing culture war against the West, so there *is* more at stake here."

    "the ongoing culture war against the West"



    "the ongoing culture war against the West"





    Just, wow.
    strawman much?

    I dislike TLJ for a myriad of reasons, I still acknowledge that it has good bits, but those are pretty much entirely technical and cinematic. I feel, and I'm in the vast majority, that it fails to capture the ethos and character of star wars.

    This is a prime example of the idiocy of TLJ haters.

    It's not like there were many fucking options for why Luke was completely missing in TFA. Perhaps if he hadn't been turned into a fucking McGuffin in the first film. It's an argument I see endlessly regurgitated and it has more to do with the type of characters certain audience members expected to see (2d superheros).
    Calling me an idiot, nice.

    Listen, I'm not excusing TFA it was unimaginative and it's pacing was the worst of any star wars movie, and you are right that it's setup didn't leave a lot of options, but that's not an excuse for the trainwreck that TLJ is, especially how badly it fucked any chance for the final movie to make sense. Bottom line TLJ was a failure, it was a flop of such staggering magnitude that it significantly damaged the most profitable IP in human history. Like it or not that's the fact, the vast majority of people fucking hate it and its existence has undeniably damaged star wars as a brand, this is irrefutable and speaks for itself.

  12. #452
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    This is just your regularly scheduled reminder that The Last Jedi is the best film in the new Star Wars trilogy. Thank you for your attention.

  13. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    This is just your regularly scheduled reminder that The Last Jedi is the best film in the new Star Wars trilogy. Thank you for your attention.
    I'm actually keen on seeing RoS again. I really enjoyed a lot more than TLJ although I quite liked TFA. Need to see if it holds up to a second viewing.



    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDude View Post
    Listen, I'm not excusing TFA it was unimaginative and it's pacing was the worst of any star wars movie, and you are right that it's setup didn't leave a lot of options, but that's not an excuse for the trainwreck that TLJ is, especially how badly it fucked any chance for the final movie to make sense. Bottom line TLJ was a failure, it was a flop of such staggering magnitude that it significantly damaged the most profitable IP in human history. Like it or not that's the fact, the vast majority of people fucking hate it and its existence has undeniably damaged star wars as a brand, this is irrefutable and speaks for itself.
    I was quite surprised that a hell of a lot of people enjoyed the new trilogy, even if it left me personally with (very much) mixed feelings and an absolute hate for Rian Johnson or what's his name for making a thing just to "subvert expectations", basically targeting internet theories and doing the exact opposite and in the process making little (if any) sense at all. Some of those people I actually call friends but we kind of avoid discussing Star Wars lately and focus on other things
    Last edited by Cosmin; January 3 2020 at 07:06:21 PM.
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  14. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    This is just your regularly scheduled reminder that The Last Jedi is the best film in the new Star Wars trilogy. Thank you for your attention.
    I'm actually keen on seeing RoS again. I really enjoyed a lot more than TLJ although I quite liked TFA. Need to see if it holds up to a second viewing.



    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDude View Post
    Listen, I'm not excusing TFA it was unimaginative and it's pacing was the worst of any star wars movie, and you are right that it's setup didn't leave a lot of options, but that's not an excuse for the trainwreck that TLJ is, especially how badly it fucked any chance for the final movie to make sense. Bottom line TLJ was a failure, it was a flop of such staggering magnitude that it significantly damaged the most profitable IP in human history. Like it or not that's the fact, the vast majority of people fucking hate it and its existence has undeniably damaged star wars as a brand, this is irrefutable and speaks for itself.
    I was quite surprised that a hell of a lot of people enjoyed the new trilogy, even if it left me personally with (very much) mixed feelings and an absolute hate for Rian Johnson or what's his name for making a thing just to "subvert expectations", basically targeting internet theories and doing the exact opposite and in the process making little (if any) sense at all. Some of those people I actually call friends but we kind of avoid discussing Star Wars lately and focus on other things
    there's plenty of good to look at with star wars lately besides the movies, the Mandalorian was amazing (people criticize it for being simple but IMO the original trilogy wasn't complicated it was just good and the same goes for the Mandalorian) and a lot of the new books like Master and Apprentice, Thrawn, Tarkin, etc. have been really good. Rebels was good, the comics have been pretty awesome. It's just like one mediocre movie and two shitty ones that's the problem and the people responsible for all the great shit are set to take over, I'm optimistic really with the new shows on the horizon, and we've got time for the studio to sort out shit and get the movie production back up to par.

  15. #455
    Super Chillerator Global Moderator teds :D's Avatar
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    Rogue One > TFA > RoS > Solo > TLJ

    fite me

    rouge one might actually be my favourite star wars movie full stop. I get into the main characters (Jinn, Cassian, K2SO Krennic) - some weird ones too like Saw Gerrera, but overall pretty decent. And the cinematography for a SW film is something else;




  16. #456
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    I honestly liked Solo more than Rogue One. I won't tell where I place them overall though, I just made a separate category for them. It's probably because Rogue One has a predestined clearly known outcome - we know they all die, period. And Saw Gerrera, come ooon. Completely useless death. "I'ma just sit there altho there's plenty of room on the ship". Wtf man. With Solo, it's interesting to see how they don't die, albeit it makes it hard sometimes to get into the vibe that "omg they're in danger", but guess what? For me personally, the movie actually makes it happen. I can't say I'm on the edge of my seat during the Kessel run... but I am.

    They're both impressive from a cinematography point of view. And Solo has the sass from ep IV and V and then some.

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  17. #457

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    Rogue One got messed up in reshoots, which is why Saw has one ham-fisted scene and then goes out like Marion Cotillard in TDKR. Now, whether it was better in the original vision, we will never know. But both R1 and Solo have some amazing visuals and fun characters, fucked over by what suspiciously smells like studio interference.

    Kathleen Kennedy has the dubious honour of making the most meh blockbuster cinematic universe around. Others are plain bad (DC) or so bad they are funny again (WB Monsterverse), but the sequels and spinoffs constantly let on that they could have been great, on their own. And that is almost worse.

    I would like to say im done with SW/Trek, but there is just no other big budget space popcorn around. A bit of a conumdrum: blockbusters are said to kill the smaller movies, but instead what we get is artsy-fartsy low-mid tier movies (Ad Astra comes most recently to mind), absolutely meh blockbusters, and nothing in between.

  18. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meester View Post
    Good first half with loreful stuff and a highly convoluted second half with characters introduced on a whim
      Spoiler:
    Hello Finn's third love interest
    Well, 4th if you buy some of the early TFA theories. http://www.newnownext.com/finn-poe-g...-jedi/10/2017/



    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    Rogue One > TFA > RoS > Solo > TLJ

    fite me
    I pretty much agree with that, but will have to see ROS once more time before I decide how it ranks compared to TFA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    And Saw Gerrera, come ooon. Completely useless death. "I'ma just sit there altho there's plenty of room on the ship". Wtf man.
    Saw walks really slow, he didn't want to risk the others by having them wait for him to hobble his crippled cyber ass to the ship.
    "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Zhuge Liang


  19. #459
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    If for anything, Solo should be recognised for providing the most cringeworthy last name explanation in movie history.

  20. #460
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    I got about half an hour into solo and switched it off.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

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