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Thread: Star Wars Episode IX, The Rise of Skywalker

  1. #361
    Donor Pattern's Avatar
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    It’s a fair point. The Rise of Skywalker marks the first time the three main heroes will interact as a core group. But that isn’t the fault of The Last Jedi or Rian Johnson, and framing it as such feels misguided. The Force Awakens also kept those characters apart. They’ve never functioned as a trio or been set up as one. Rian Johnson inherited a host of cliffhangers and half-finished arcs in The Last Jedi that Abrams teed up in The Force Awakens. Abrams separated Rey from the main group, teased and obfuscated her lineage, left Finn in a coma without a pledge to the Resistance, never set up the state of the galaxy post-Return of the Jedi, plopped Snoke into the plot without any context, and put Luke into isolation. “Luke felt responsible,” Han Solo says of Luke’s disappearance in The Force Awakens. “He just walked away from everything.”

    Johnson’s film took all of those dangling threads and weaved them into a beautiful story, one that demonstrably provoked a fandom a little too obsessed with idol-worshipping. It didn’t smear the legacy of characters so much as it deepened and matured them. It made them better. Leia’s loss of faith and Luke’s restoration of that hope–for her and for a galaxy–cracked open a universe of possibility. One that undercut the notion that the Force makes you inherently “important” and made Star Wars even more for everyone than originally envisioned.

    Abrams critiquing the “meta” qualities of The Last Jedi feels backwards in a few vital ways. First, it insinuates that The Force Awakens wasn’t meta, even though it’s literally the story of a new generation of Luke Skywalker-worshipping Rebel wannabes implanted into a fantasy adventure stocked with recognizable characters and totems. That’s about as metatextual as it gets.

    It also suggests that Johnson somehow compromised or undermined Abrams’ own vague world-building, when he never made clearly-defined choices in the first place. He outlined a trilogy, walked away, then returned with a simmering wave of internet vitriol that could either be eradicated or weaponized to sell the next product.

  2. #362
    Donor Spaztick's Avatar
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    https://babylonbee.com/news/rise-of-...on-bee-review/

    We sit in the theatre, waiting, the air thick with anticipation and the smell of popcorn and broken dreams. There aren't that many people, surprisingly. A few superfans are dressed up as obscure alien characters we don't recognize.

    The movie comes on. It is a confusing CGI spectacle. The plot is unclear. We wonder why God has unleashed this vengeance upon us. We toss someone overboard to see if that appeases His wrath. It does not. More CGI comes on screen. It is a colorful vomit of characters with silly names, dramatic speeches about nothing, and lots of singing and dancing.

    And fur. So much fur.

    It is then we realize we're in the wrong theatre, watching Cats with a bunch of furries. We rush down the hall and into the right theatre as they hiss at us.

  3. #363
    Cosmin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    But why would he waste five hours on watching this "critique" when he could instead watch The Last Jedi, which as a reminder is the best film of the new trilogy, twice in the same time?
    Fair enuf

    The thing is I watched them in theatres and I came with a feeling of meh after the TFA and TLJ so these critiques were something I listened to in the hopes of identifying why it was so meh. Turns out there are a lot of things that combined give you a feeling of fuck that.

    One thing I really liked in the prequels was the character development and the story line that made sense in the context of Star Wars. That is why RoS is actually decent Star Wars compared to TFA and TLJ. I'm putting TFA there because it's such a good copy of Episode IV that in itself is good, but it's still copy-paste.

    A few impressions from my caving in and watching it in IMAX because hey I watched all of them in theatres when they came out (sans the original trilogy).
      Spoiler:
    Young Luke and young Leia training together. Big oof and deep feels when: "Dad..." | "I know." Rey's force lighting burst was a nice way of making me spill my soda. Way too much of people dying from using the force too much (seriously, that's not how the force works). Ships working after decades of abandonment is not out of the Star Wars canon at all. Too much pushing of force ghosts into the world, seriously why are they not fucking up the Sith like that? It's not like they'll die again or smth.

    The bass drop Palps does in RoS is almost on par with the only scene I enjoyed in TLJ when they warped that Resistance Cruiser through the opposing fleet. Big feels were hazd. Also the voices Rey hears are simply spot on, Qui Gon was there as well as Yoda and Mace Windu. Top marks, JJ. I also liked a lot of "show, don't tell <too much>". It's implied General Pryde is actually Grand Moff Tarkin and there's a bunch of other similar things spread around. I found the story to be super concentrated Star Wars juice and that may not fare well with everybody, but overall it was the best Star Wars experience on the big screen since Revenge of the Sith (at least for me). Mandalorian is still killing it on the smol screen.

    The Jedi Sentinel lightsaber and final scene were really a nice ending imo.
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  4. #364
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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  5. #365
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    Looks like the kind of self indulgent wankery I'd expect from star citizen

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Ruri- nobody is giving reasons why TLJ is bad
    - Videos are linked containing in depth critique-
    Ruri - yeah not watching, tl;dr.

    And btw you may think he's kind of a shit critic, but I watched those and they are valid criticism.

    Btw you don't have to exclusively watch you tube content, you can always do so whilst doing chores.
    I usually have the content playing on one monitor when gaming on the main one, but five hours? Not unless it's as entertaining as the Plinkett prequel series, which, mauler is no Plinkett.

    Tbf I did watch/read other critiques, though they all seem to suffer from the same sort of bloat where the critic will make a handful of points and then ramble on for a while just saying "it's bad" over and over. I was actually really disappointed in the Plinkett review of TLJ as well, it really felt like Mike just didn't get into the same level of detail as he did with the prequels. And I do agree with several of the problems he points out (you don't just happen upon a planetary star system, especially one with a hidden base on it, unless that was your plan from the start), but I also think he devalued the other aspects of the story that were more interesting. But again, how much you weight those is entirely up to you.

    Now, having returned from the theater,
      Spoiler:
    I can say that while ROS managed to be a little more inventive than I was afraid for, and actually got me good in the feels (Han's convo, and then Ben's self sacrifice were legit great moments and felt like they actually connected with the character's whole arc), it also did everything I expected JJ to do by just going HERE'S EVEN MOOOOORRRREEE AND IT'S BIGGER THAN EVER. For every time I said "oh, that's actually kind of nice" (those references to The Last Airbender were surely not accidental and I am there for it) there were two where I was just sat staring at the screen wondering "wait why the fuck is that a thing?" ("here kylo, we analyzed this necklace in two seconds, it should only take you 15-20 seconds to get to the planet where all the macguffin's have gathered," and any time the characters interacted with Leia it sounded like they were talking to a magic 8 ball; "general, we've lost contact with the Falcon, what should we do?" "Ask Again Later...")

    Idk, I'll have to digest it a bit more, but overall while TLJ was ambitious and flawed, ROS feels repetitive and flawed, and I think I'd rather see someone at least try to expand what is possible in Star Wars, rather than just copy-pasting past things and giving everyone even more super superpowers. Kylo Ben was easily the best part of this whole trilogy, I like where his character ended up a lot more than Rey kind of creepily taking the name of her ghost spirit gurus.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    But why would he waste five hours on watching this "critique" when he could instead watch The Last Jedi, which as a reminder is the best film of the new trilogy, twice in the same time?
    Fair enuf

    The thing is I watched them in theatres and I came with a feeling of meh after the TFA and TLJ so these critiques were something I listened to in the hopes of identifying why it was so meh. Turns out there are a lot of things that combined give you a feeling of fuck that.

    One thing I really liked in the prequels was the character development and the story line that made sense in the context of Star Wars. That is why RoS is actually decent Star Wars compared to TFA and TLJ. I'm putting TFA there because it's such a good copy of Episode IV that in itself is good, but it's still copy-paste.

    A few impressions from my caving in and watching it in IMAX because hey I watched all of them in theatres when they came out (sans the original trilogy).
      Spoiler:
    Young Luke and young Leia training together. Big oof and deep feels when: "Dad..." | "I know." Rey's force lighting burst was a nice way of making me spill my soda. Way too much of people dying from using the force too much (seriously, that's not how the force works). Ships working after decades of abandonment is not out of the Star Wars canon at all. Too much pushing of force ghosts into the world, seriously why are they not fucking up the Sith like that? It's not like they'll die again or smth.

    The bass drop Palps does in RoS is almost on par with the only scene I enjoyed in TLJ when they warped that Resistance Cruiser through the opposing fleet. Big feels were hazd. Also the voices Rey hears are simply spot on, Qui Gon was there as well as Yoda and Mace Windu. Top marks, JJ. I also liked a lot of "show, don't tell <too much>". It's implied General Pryde is actually Grand Moff Tarkin and there's a bunch of other similar things spread around. I found the story to be super concentrated Star Wars juice and that may not fare well with everybody, but overall it was the best Star Wars experience on the big screen since Revenge of the Sith (at least for me). Mandalorian is still killing it on the smol screen.

    The Jedi Sentinel lightsaber and final scene were really a nice ending imo.
    Funny, I came out of the theater really liking TLJ and went and found a bunch of articles on it to help figure out why too. It might seem cheeky to link anything here after I blew off the mauler vids, but I genuinely think this is one of the best things that's been written about Star Wars in general, so I'll just put it on the table.
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  7. #367
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    I'll have a thorough read, but by skimming it it seems to be the usual "we love star wars so anything wrapped in that logo is acceptable". I think there's a duality here and a lot of rose tinted glasses involved on both sides. Bottom line imho is that this trilogy could have been so much better - hell, look at The Mandalorian, it's a freaking TV series and is miles better imho - and albeit you can find enjoyment in TFA/TLJ/RoS, it is sad they seem to be choke full of political agendas and other useless stuff instead of actually giving us more concentrated Star Wars.

    I just hope they pull their heads out of their bums and give us better stuff - there is still hope - again, The Mandalorian and Jedi Fallen Order seem to be really good signs they're on the right track somehow.

    Edit: just started watching The Clone Wars series and it's really good :/
    Last edited by Cosmin; December 21 2019 at 11:19:14 PM.
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  8. #368

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    Alright, seen it. Its a movie in fast forward. Most of the plot pieces would work on their own, but nothing is given time to breathe.

    They also did Kylo/Ben dirty in the end imo. And the force twin thing is fucking stupid, but so are a dozen other things i could list.


    Its the best that we could hope for, and worse than anyone would have wanted. Its a kaleidoscope of Star Wars, but in the end that just means you go out with a headache.

    Glad its over, maybe now its time to let it rest (fat chance).

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    I'll have a thorough read, but by skimming it it seems to be the usual "we love star wars so anything wrapped in that logo is acceptable". I think there's a duality here and a lot of rose tinted glasses involved on both sides. Bottom line imho is that this trilogy could have been so much better - hell, look at The Mandalorian, it's a freaking TV series and is miles better imho - and albeit you can find enjoyment in TFA/TLJ/RoS, it is sad they seem to be choke full of political agendas and other useless stuff instead of actually giving us more concentrated Star Wars.

    I just hope they pull their heads out of their bums and give us better stuff - there is still hope - again, The Mandalorian and Jedi Fallen Order seem to be really good signs they're on the right track somehow.

    Edit: just started watching The Clone Wars series and it's really good :/
    1. What counts as a "political agenda" in your book? This phrase does a lot of really heavy work for a lot of people, so I want to be super clear about it's use here. Every story ever told involves politics, if only because we make a choice what story to tell in the first place. This is one complaint about the new movies that I really can't ascribe to anything except very negative "isms", and I don't want to needlessly dump those labels on anyone, so please please give me another line of reasoning for why someone would suddenly be concerned about quote-unquote Politics being involved in a story about galactic war where it's most ardent fans defend three whole movies that do almost nothing but talk about Politics.

    2. What is "concentrated Star Wars?" Pure adherence to the monomyth? Only ever showing good heroes doing good things and winning in the end? What fiction series accedes to that narrow a vision?

    The point of the article is not to tell people why they're wrong for liking or disliking anything, it's to explore why Star Wars matters to so many people, and why a vocal minority so viscerally hated the one entry in the series that did anything to challenge their core assumptions about it. And to head off one of the primary complaints that people seem to retreat to when explaining their hatred for The Last Jedi, - But Space Logic - let's compare the two central inciting incidents of The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker and see how their Space Logic holds up.

    TLJ: The Rebels are running from the Empire and jump to "the middle of nowhere" but get tracked by the Empire's new super tracker. So they make a desperate attempt to run away while hiding what their ostensible true plan had to have been all along - moving everyone to a hidden base and waiting for the Empire to pass. Except that they clearly didn't jump to the middle of nowhere, because a system with a hidden Rebel base is an extremely specific location that every ship in the fleet would have in their computers in order to even get to, and appearing far enough away that it takes hours to get there at sublight speeds makes no sense at all when everywhere else in the series ships appear -right next to- wherever they intended to go.

    ROS:
      Spoiler:
    The dead emperor turns out to not be so dead, and has hidden a galaxy-threat level fleet of Star Destroyers that were either pre-existing or were built by some entity we never see and also somehow have Death Star lasers attached to them in the upper crust of a planet no one can find, and has armed, powered, supplied, and crewed them with many thousands of troops and pilots so they can immediately begin jumping to populated planets and blowing them up without any apparent chance of being stopped or countered. The hardest part of leaving a planet's atmosphere - getting off the ground - he can do with a wave of his hands, but the easiest part - turning on your engines and pointing up - requires a baffling array of technology that the Rebels are able to instantly understand and come up with a plan to defeat.


    Both of these scenarios are absurd, logically. So why is one so bad that it ruined Star Wars, while the other is "concentrated Star Wars?"

    3. Yeah Clone Wars is great. If you like it, you should really watch Samurai Jack if you haven't already. It's by the same director and the final season of that show is honestly one of the most beautiful examples of animation that's ever been produced.

    edit: I'm assuming the animated Clone Wars, not the CGI one, which is also pretty good overall and does a lot of work to fill in the gaps that Lucas somehow managed to leave after three whole movies.
    Last edited by Ruri; December 22 2019 at 02:38:02 AM.
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  10. #370
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    1. Inserting current RL politics subjects into the movies. Of course there's politics involved, after all it's a Star Wars movie, but seriously there's a lot of crap there that doesn't need to be there just to be there. I don't want to list it because it's way too much. Most importantly it's the main character who has to be a woman and is good at everything without any prior training and is obviously godlike after a bit of training. Just no. For a bit of background I have nothing against strong female leads - but for some reason, contemporary films just have to shove shit in your face. Compare for example the story arc of Ripley in the Alien series with Rey's arc in this trilogy. You can deflect that it's apples and oranges (it isn't), but then you can compare Luke's arc from the original trilogy with Rey's arc in the third trilogy, sex/gender notwithstanding.

    2. Concentrated Star Wars is for example KotOR. Or The Mandalorian. Both ooze Star Wars through every pore. Unlike the latest trilogy mumbo jumbo of themes and real life contemporary politics

    Space logic was never a thing and it's why Star Wars is a space opera, not hard sci fi. I'm not questioning the questionable stuff like "fuel in the SW universe lol", but the flow of the story, which is p. terrible, as you well described in the two paragraphs about TLJ and RoS

    3. Samurai Jack is one of my favourite series ever

    What do you mean the animated, not the CGI one? I assumed there's only one Clone Wars animated series (6 seasons)?
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    Luke was pretty OP in RotJ as well. He "lost" to himself, temporarily, but got saved by appealing to Vaders humanity.

    In contrast:

      Spoiler:
    Rey righteously curbstomps every encounter, then gets handwaved by Palps, but inexplicably owns him about half a minute later.

    They try to make it about her overcoming the temptation of the dark side, but in the end it comes out as "she did everything right, and if she didnt then it was a bluff".

    And then, instead of the message being "accept yourself for who you are", she takes up the Skywalker name. As if Leia being her ersatz-mom and kissing Ben means shes married into the family.


    The Abrams sequels were mediocre fanfics. TLJ tried to be something different, but didnt succeed in that either.

  12. #372
    Movember 2012 Zekk Pacus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Most importantly it's the main character who has to be a woman and is good at everything without any prior training and is obviously godlike after a bit of training.
    Completely unlike Luke Skywalker who was able to take his vast experience piloting airspeeders on Tatooine and immediately apply that to becoming an exceptional fighter pilot and blowing up a space station by hitting a target that veteran fliers in the briefing had stated was "impossible".

    This mary sue argument is really just you telling on yourself, you know. Luke Skywalker was a MASSIVE mary sue.
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  13. #373
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    Jedi are pretty much Mary Sue by definition I would say, no?

    Also Cosmin, that's a lot of "I'm not against having female protagonists, BUT ...". Maybe think a bit about whether you really want to be that guy.

  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Most importantly it's the main character who has to be a woman and is good at everything without any prior training and is obviously godlike after a bit of training.
    Completely unlike Luke Skywalker who was able to take his vast experience piloting airspeeders on Tatooine and immediately apply that to becoming an exceptional fighter pilot and blowing up a space station by hitting a target that veteran fliers in the briefing had stated was "impossible".

    This mary sue argument is really just you telling on yourself, you know. Luke Skywalker was a MASSIVE mary sue.
    maybe we can all just admit star wars was never a good story from day 1

    This is what's going on in the genius mind of the guy who wrote luke skywalker


  15. #375
    Donor Pattern's Avatar
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    To be fair on Lucas. I would have been up for a paradigm shift. Instead of the new empire/first order bullshit, let's delve into the force, figure if it's actually worth having, maybe a fight between those that would destroy it, save it, control it, or set it free.

    What we ultimately got was a profound lack of imagination. GG

    Really hope Rian Johnson gets to do his own trilogy.

  16. #376
    Sandzibar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post

    Really hope Rian Johnson gets to do his own trilogy.
    He wont because the great unwashed hated his efforts with TLJ.

  17. #377
    Donor Pattern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandzibar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post

    Really hope Rian Johnson gets to do his own trilogy.
    He wont because the great unwashed hated his efforts with TLJ.
    Maybe.

    Though as much as I like the tone of the mandolorian, the entire thing wreeks of a franchise to afraid to step outside of its own asshole.

  18. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandzibar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post

    Really hope Rian Johnson gets to do his own trilogy.
    He wont because the great unwashed hated his efforts with TLJ.
    Maybe.

    Though as much as I like the tone of the mandolorian, the entire thing wreeks of a franchise to afraid to step outside of its own asshole.
    Well it is Disney isnt it. Risk averse when it comes to profit generation / anything that might effect stocks.

    Didnt they rework Rogue One quite heavily because they felt it was too dark or something?
    Last edited by Sandzibar; December 22 2019 at 08:56:12 PM.

  19. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandzibar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandzibar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post

    Really hope Rian Johnson gets to do his own trilogy.
    He wont because the great unwashed hated his efforts with TLJ.
    Though as much as I like the tone of the mandolorian, the entire thing wreeks of a franchise to afraid to step outside of its own asshole.
    Well it is Disney isnt it. Risk averse when it comes to profit generation / anything that might effect stocks.

    Didnt they rework Rogue One quite heavily because they felt it was too dark or something?
    Au contraire, the original ending was the happy go lucky one if I recall correctly. The director told Kathleen Kennedy what he really wanted and she gave it the go ahead.

    Iirc ofc.
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  20. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorvil Barranis View Post
    I posted a big rant when it came out, but my big beef is the heroes never accomplish anything. The bombing run, has to happen or else the "dreadnought" will destroy the fleet, but they still act like Poe fucked up. The entire sub plot with the casino planet, and the code master, does nothing. The chase, really quite pointless, because they almost all die anyway. They need to destroy the door knocker cannon, and Finn is gonna do it, but noble sacrifice all the sudden is a bad thing, so Finn shouldn't do it. Luke sacrifices himself . . . so a handful of resistance folks escape in the Falcon?

    All that changed is Snoke got killed, the resistance is largely destroyed, and Rey got some training. Nothing the heroes do accomplishes anything at any point, it makes the whole thing kind of depressing. At least in Empire they evacuate Hoth and rescue the main heroes except Han.
    The plotting in that movie is awful. Also bombs falling in space lol.

    To be honest this new one isn't great either, but it just bored me instead of making me actively annoyed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    Also
    It’s a fair point. The Rise of Skywalker marks the first time the three main heroes will interact as a core group. But that isn’t the fault of The Last Jedi or Rian Johnson, and framing it as such feels misguided. The Force Awakens also kept those characters apart. They’ve never functioned as a trio or been set up as one. Rian Johnson inherited a host of cliffhangers and half-finished arcs in The Last Jedi that Abrams teed up in The Force Awakens. Abrams separated Rey from the main group, teased and obfuscated her lineage, left Finn in a coma without a pledge to the Resistance, never set up the state of the galaxy post-Return of the Jedi, plopped Snoke into the plot without any context, and put Luke into isolation. “Luke felt responsible,” Han Solo says of Luke’s disappearance in The Force Awakens. “He just walked away from everything.”

    Johnson’s film took all of those dangling threads and weaved them into a beautiful story, one that demonstrably provoked a fandom a little too obsessed with idol-worshipping. It didn’t smear the legacy of characters so much as it deepened and matured them. It made them better. Leia’s loss of faith and Luke’s restoration of that hope–for her and for a galaxy–cracked open a universe of possibility. One that undercut the notion that the Force makes you inherently “important” and made Star Wars even more for everyone than originally envisioned.

    Abrams critiquing the “meta” qualities of The Last Jedi feels backwards in a few vital ways. First, it insinuates that The Force Awakens wasn’t meta, even though it’s literally the story of a new generation of Luke Skywalker-worshipping Rebel wannabes implanted into a fantasy adventure stocked with recognizable characters and totems. That’s about as metatextual as it gets.

    It also suggests that Johnson somehow compromised or undermined Abrams’ own vague world-building, when he never made clearly-defined choices in the first place. He outlined a trilogy, walked away, then returned with a simmering wave of internet vitriol that could either be eradicated or weaponized to sell the next product.
    Clearly JJ hated TLJ too, that's why he's ripping into it. TLJ didn't make anything better. Also the problem wasn't that it undermined the world building, I agree TFA didn't do much more than hint at things, the problem was that it didn't try to expand on it, which should be the role of the second movie. Empire didn't actually move the story forward much either, but it built the characters. TLJ ensured that the supporting cast would remain underdeveloped trash.

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