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Thread: Star Wars Episode IX, The Rise of Skywalker

  1. #341
    Super Baderator DonorGlobal Moderator cullnean's Avatar
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    Clone wars series was better


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  2. #342
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    Star Wars xmas special was the last good star wars production
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  3. #343
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cullnean View Post
    Clone wars series was better
    it's literally animes

  4. #344
    rufuske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cullnean View Post
    Clone wars series was better
    it's literally animes
    Is it really that good?

  5. #345
    Movember 2012 Elriche Oshego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cullnean View Post
    Clone wars series was better


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    Last edited by Elriche Oshego; December 20 2019 at 02:24:00 PM.

  6. #346
    Ruri's Avatar
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    So I actually went and did it. I watched The Last Jedi for I think the third time, and then I watched Attack of the Clones for I think just the second, right in a row. I needed half a pint of rum and a vicodin to make it all the way through Attack but I didn't skip any of it. So thanks for replying.

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDude View Post
    Off the top of my head there's the scene with the bombers where they hit the dreadnaught or whatever it is.
    Honestly on rewatch this part still bugs me too. Obviously the original movies played fast and loose with how spaceships work because they were very deliberately homaging WWII films, and the real physics of space are very hard to make interesting for general audiences unless you're getting into stuff like The Expanse. The other thing that still gets on my nerves is the way the Imperial fleet's shots arc during the chase sequence. Yes there are no straight lines in space, but still, it was a little too much.

    The whole thing with the hyperspace ramming was beautifully shot and would work great in another setting where such things are accounted for but in Star Wars introduced an entire new element to the universe that completely breaks all of the space battle tactics totally and irrevocably forever.
    This one I'm willing to Rule Of Cool, tbh. Again, if you want to apply anything like real logic to Star Wars space battles you'd have to start with the very first movie (why are they "required" to maneuver down the trench? Is there no Z axis in their universe?), so it's a question of how much creative license you're willing to give the director. I don't think any of the things in TLJ break whatever passes for Star Wars physics, because they've never really been defined beyond what it takes to get cool scenes onto the screen in the first place.

    The thing with rose falling in love with fin was ham handed and completely counter to how her whole character was setup so it just didn't work, and robbed Finn of pretty much the only chance he was afforded to do anything meaningful in the entire film.
    Rushed, absolutely. But Finn's journey from only worrying about his friends, to finding a cause he thinks he wants to die for, ends with him realising that it's more important to have a cause to fight for - the ideal of the heroic self-sacrifice is not and should not ever be the goal. Holdo's charge was literally the last option available to her if she wanted to take any action at all, but Finn rushing into death just showed that he was too focused on defeating the enemy instead of saving the cause. A lesson, not coincidentally, that Poe was required to learn as well (and I have my own problems with how his story was handled too).

    Basically the force should be a thing that isn't easily mastered for anyone no matter how talented, it takes time and effort and a revaluation of one's innermost self to even touch at all. TLJ especially fell down on this point, it didn't show enough or imply enough to really justify the things Rey was able to do, and those things needed that justification to make sense in the setting and in the movie.
    I agree, but again, the originals suffered from this problem as well. Luke went from getting his ass handed to him by Vader, to the dark robed mind-tricking force-choking Jedi Master in Return in what, however long Han was in carbonite? Was that a month, a year, several years? How long was Luke even on Dagobah? Way longer than Rey was on Ach-to? The problem of Rey being a force genius was set up by The Force Awakens, in fact a lot of the problems people have with the new characters were really set up in that movie. Rian Johnson had to work with JJ Abram's fucking mystery boxes, and I think he did as well as anyone could have.

    Now, whether or not these points ruin the movie for you is entirely subjective, of course. Again, thanks for providing at least some reasoning. What I've been struggling to understand is how one gets from "I had some problems with the plot and character elements" to "Rian Johnson should die," or even that it was somehow worse than the prequels. (Not that you specifically seem to suffer from this degree of assblasted.) Personally what I love about TLJ is the absolute clarity of the character's journeys, the consistent themes of learning from failure and the folly of venerating heros when they're always just flawed people trying their best, the re-mystifying of the force and Luke's realization that the Jedi were always a bad idea. The conclusion of his character's journey combined with the cinematography that showed it makes the film worth all the space physics niggles, at least in my view.

    Oh, as for Attack. To quote C3PO, "It's a nightmare!"
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  7. #347

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armyofme View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    - Suprise.... Leia is a proper jedi master
    Kinda knew that from the books anyways.
    Indeed. The first ever official Star Wars books, the Thrawn trilogy by Timothy Zahn, gave that away in no unclear manner.

  8. #348
    DevilDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruri View Post
    So I actually went and did it. I watched The Last Jedi for I think the third time, and then I watched Attack of the Clones for I think just the second, right in a row. I needed half a pint of rum and a vicodin to make it all the way through Attack but I didn't skip any of it. So thanks for replying.

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDude View Post
    Off the top of my head there's the scene with the bombers where they hit the dreadnaught or whatever it is.
    Honestly on rewatch this part still bugs me too. Obviously the original movies played fast and loose with how spaceships work because they were very deliberately homaging WWII films, and the real physics of space are very hard to make interesting for general audiences unless you're getting into stuff like The Expanse. The other thing that still gets on my nerves is the way the Imperial fleet's shots arc during the chase sequence. Yes there are no straight lines in space, but still, it was a little too much.

    The whole thing with the hyperspace ramming was beautifully shot and would work great in another setting where such things are accounted for but in Star Wars introduced an entire new element to the universe that completely breaks all of the space battle tactics totally and irrevocably forever.
    This one I'm willing to Rule Of Cool, tbh. Again, if you want to apply anything like real logic to Star Wars space battles you'd have to start with the very first movie (why are they "required" to maneuver down the trench? Is there no Z axis in their universe?), so it's a question of how much creative license you're willing to give the director. I don't think any of the things in TLJ break whatever passes for Star Wars physics, because they've never really been defined beyond what it takes to get cool scenes onto the screen in the first place.

    The thing with rose falling in love with fin was ham handed and completely counter to how her whole character was setup so it just didn't work, and robbed Finn of pretty much the only chance he was afforded to do anything meaningful in the entire film.
    Rushed, absolutely. But Finn's journey from only worrying about his friends, to finding a cause he thinks he wants to die for, ends with him realising that it's more important to have a cause to fight for - the ideal of the heroic self-sacrifice is not and should not ever be the goal. Holdo's charge was literally the last option available to her if she wanted to take any action at all, but Finn rushing into death just showed that he was too focused on defeating the enemy instead of saving the cause. A lesson, not coincidentally, that Poe was required to learn as well (and I have my own problems with how his story was handled too).

    Basically the force should be a thing that isn't easily mastered for anyone no matter how talented, it takes time and effort and a revaluation of one's innermost self to even touch at all. TLJ especially fell down on this point, it didn't show enough or imply enough to really justify the things Rey was able to do, and those things needed that justification to make sense in the setting and in the movie.
    I agree, but again, the originals suffered from this problem as well. Luke went from getting his ass handed to him by Vader, to the dark robed mind-tricking force-choking Jedi Master in Return in what, however long Han was in carbonite? Was that a month, a year, several years? How long was Luke even on Dagobah? Way longer than Rey was on Ach-to? The problem of Rey being a force genius was set up by The Force Awakens, in fact a lot of the problems people have with the new characters were really set up in that movie. Rian Johnson had to work with JJ Abram's fucking mystery boxes, and I think he did as well as anyone could have.

    Now, whether or not these points ruin the movie for you is entirely subjective, of course. Again, thanks for providing at least some reasoning. What I've been struggling to understand is how one gets from "I had some problems with the plot and character elements" to "Rian Johnson should die," or even that it was somehow worse than the prequels. (Not that you specifically seem to suffer from this degree of assblasted.) Personally what I love about TLJ is the absolute clarity of the character's journeys, the consistent themes of learning from failure and the folly of venerating heros when they're always just flawed people trying their best, the re-mystifying of the force and Luke's realization that the Jedi were always a bad idea. The conclusion of his character's journey combined with the cinematography that showed it makes the film worth all the space physics niggles, at least in my view.

    Oh, as for Attack. To quote C3PO, "It's a nightmare!"
    I think we just fundamentally disagree, the problem I have with TLJ is that none of anything anyone does actually makes sense if you think about it for more than thirty seconds. You say they have a character journey, which is true as far as it goes, the problem is that none of the actual events in the movie are tied to that journey or about it really and further don't make sense in context of the existing worldbuilding that has been done. To be clear I think TLJ is a collection of good cinematography and acting that's used in such a way that it fails to make a good film, it manages to be less than the sum of it's parts.

  9. #349
    Ruri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDude View Post
    I think we just fundamentally disagree, the problem I have with TLJ is that none of anything anyone does actually makes sense if you think about it for more than thirty seconds. You say they have a character journey, which is true as far as it goes, the problem is that none of the actual events in the movie are tied to that journey or about it really and further don't make sense in context of the existing worldbuilding that has been done. To be clear I think TLJ is a collection of good cinematography and acting that's used in such a way that it fails to make a good film, it manages to be less than the sum of it's parts.
    "None of anything anyone does actually makes sense" is something I used to think was hyperbole until I rewatched Attack. Fucking hell, that thing is wall to wall nonsense. So Palpatine wants to Kill Padme, so he orders a guy, who hires a guy, who hires a guy, who orders a robot, that releases some bugs that are supposed to kill Padme. And then, instead of staying somewhere actually safe and secure which every character practically turns to the audience to say they want, she goes on vacation. With a horny teenage superhero who all the Jedi council predicted would bring about doom.

    By way of a specific contrast, Luke in TLJ closing himself off from the force and refusing to train Rey because of what happened when he tried to train Ben. His past failure made him weary, and only when his friend R2 appeals to his past success doe he agree to try again. I think that makes sense?
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  10. #350
    Cosmin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruri View Post
    I'm not saying people can't have opinions, but so far in all these pages not once has someone hating on TLJ provided an actual reason beyond "it's dumb and you're dumb lol."
    FFS, I thought you watched these:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw7pcCj0ORk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gRC4L6lNoc
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFnMMzqjYGw

    After part 3 even he got tired of it because there aren't any after that. It is that goddamn bad.

    The idea was that it does not fit, it's just a bunch of ideas thrown together saved by cinematography and partially by the actors. Partially - just watch the three above and see why.

    Edit: saw RoS and I actually liked it, JJ managed to salvage the trilogy with this final. And that is saying a lot. I want to love everything Star Wars but TLJ is simply insufferable.
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  11. #351
    GeromeDoutrande's Avatar
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    The Last Jedi is the best film of the new trilogy.

  12. #352
    Movember 2012 Zekk Pacus's Avatar
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    Any chance of narrowing the above videos down to something that's not 5 hours long?

    Thoughts on ROS after the cut.

      Spoiler:


    Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh.

    Really heavy on fanservice - okay I get that but seriously. Super heavy on fanservice.

    In true JJ Abrams style you almost never know why something is happening or what the background to it is, only that it's happening and at fast pace so it must be exciting, right? Why are they flying at breakneck speed into an urban area? Oh, there's a spy. What's the backstory for this? WHO CARES LASERS FAST FLYING PEW PEW. How did the Emperor survive being thrown into a bottomless chasm on the Death Star that then blew up? Who cares it's the Emperor listen to that voice LOOK FORCE LIGHTNING

    Hux ended up being almost as wasted as captain phasma. Thrown away for a sight gag. His motivations for becoming a spy make no sense - the character as set up in the previous two films would be far more likely to try and take out Kylo solo than go for MAD.

    You get one 'fake death' per film, Disney. Not three. I genuinely didn't care when the Emperor threw Kylo down a pit because I knew he'd be back.

    Stop playing with established in-universe rules. For god's sake stop it. The holdo maneuver has precedent. 'Lightspeed skipping' doesn't. Especially not jumping in and out of planets that close. The Force cannot be used to teleport things. Just. Stop. It. I hated it when TLJ did it and I hated it when TFA did it and I still hate it now. You've had forty years of films, games, TV series and books telling you you can't do this.

    The whole trilogy sucked ass at setting up realistic timescales. Everything was breakneck speed and gave no sense of time passing.

    In general I look upon the third trilogy as such a waste. Here was a chance to tell a new story in the Star Wars universe and instead they did what too many games within the universe have done and went for the comforting and familiar. TLJ was at least an attempt to move the story away a bit and the backlash to it scared them so much we basically got Return Of The Jedi 2.

    Last edited by Zekk Pacus; December 21 2019 at 12:13:57 AM.
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  13. #353
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruri View Post
    I agree, but again, the originals suffered from this problem as well. Luke went from getting his ass handed to him by Vader, to the dark robed mind-tricking force-choking Jedi Master in Return in what, however long Han was in carbonite? Was that a month, a year, several years?
    A New Hope: 0 ABY
    Empire Strikes Back: 3 ABY
    Return of the Jedi: 4 ABY

    So, Luke spent three years gallivanting around the galaxy with the Rebels, then lost his hand, then spent a year recovering and focusing on the Force. Maybe losing his hand and learning Vader was his father was the motivation he needed to git gud.
    How long was Luke even on Dagobah? Way longer than Rey was on Ach-to?
    In ESB? Probably no more than 2 weeks. In TLJ, maybe a few days at most.
    Personally what I love about TLJ is the absolute clarity of the character's journeys, the consistent themes of learning from failure and the folly of venerating heros when they're always just flawed people trying their best,
    That's what my father liked most about the movie. He's been a judo sensei for almost half a century.

    edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen
    Indeed. The first ever official Star Wars books, the Thrawn trilogy by Timothy Zahn, gave that away in no unclear manner.
    News to me. As I recall, Leia was still training with a remote while pregnant. She was too busy running a fledgling government to focus on her training. Pretty sure Mara Jade was (at that time) more proficient with the Force than Leia.

    edit2: They weren't the first official books. The first was Splinter of the Mind's Eye (1978). The Thrawn Trilogy was the first set of books set after the original trilogy.
    Last edited by Nordstern; December 21 2019 at 02:28:43 AM.
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  14. #354
    Ruri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    The idea was that it does not fit, it's just a bunch of ideas thrown together saved by cinematography and partially by the actors. Partially - just watch the three above and see why.
    Fuck if I'm watching 5 hours of someone bitching about anything. I tried watching this guy's critique of TFA - a movie I have actually grown to dislike over time, much like almost all of Abrams' work - and barely made it to the halfway point of the first part. And the first point he tries to make about TLJ in these videos is that it didn't do a good enough job of explaining all the things TFA didn't bother to... in it's opening title crawl. Really not impressed.

    Edit: saw RoS and I actually liked it, JJ managed to salvage the trilogy with this final. And that is saying a lot. I want to love everything Star Wars but TLJ is simply insufferable.
    I find it fascinating that the audience and critic reviews for TLJ and ROS are basically mirrors of each other. With TLJ people who critique cinema professionally really enjoyed what it did for the franchise, while fans threw temper tantrums and literally harassed one of the stars off of social media. Now comes ROS, and the critics are ambivalent while (at least early) fanboi reviews are ecstatic that it gave them just the sugar rush they wanted. Great job I guess.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    Any chance of narrowing the above videos down to something that's not 5 hours long?
    Yeah, watch some other critic, mauler's kind of shit.
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  15. #355
    Ruri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeromeDoutrande View Post
    The Last Jedi is the best film of the new trilogy.
    I see you are a man of excellent taste

    (unless this is one of those damning with faint praise things, in which case well played)
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  16. #356
    Cosmin's Avatar
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    Star Wars Episode IX, The Rise of Skywalker

    Ruri- nobody is giving reasons why TLJ is bad
    - Videos are linked containing in depth critique-
    Ruri - yeah not watching, tl;dr.

    And btw you may think he's kind of a shit critic, but I watched those and they are valid criticism.

    Btw you don't have to exclusively watch you tube content, you can always do so whilst doing chores.




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  17. #357
    GeromeDoutrande's Avatar
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    But why would he waste five hours on watching this "critique" when he could instead watch The Last Jedi, which as a reminder is the best film of the new trilogy, twice in the same time?

  18. #358
    Dorvil Barranis's Avatar
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    I posted a big rant when it came out, but my big beef is the heroes never accomplish anything. The bombing run, has to happen or else the "dreadnought" will destroy the fleet, but they still act like Poe fucked up. The entire sub plot with the casino planet, and the code master, does nothing. The chase, really quite pointless, because they almost all die anyway. They need to destroy the door knocker cannon, and Finn is gonna do it, but noble sacrifice all the sudden is a bad thing, so Finn shouldn't do it. Luke sacrifices himself . . . so a handful of resistance folks escape in the Falcon?

    All that changed is Snoke got killed, the resistance is largely destroyed, and Rey got some training. Nothing the heroes do accomplishes anything at any point, it makes the whole thing kind of depressing. At least in Empire they evacuate Hoth and rescue the main heroes except Han.
    "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Zhuge Liang


  19. #359
    Movember 2012 Steve the Pirate's Avatar
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    Star Wars Episode IX, The Rise of Skywalker

    Plus you have quite possibly the most iconic reveal in movie history in ESB (along with one of the most misquoted lines too)
    Last edited by Steve the Pirate; December 21 2019 at 11:03:19 AM.
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  20. #360
    Donor Pattern's Avatar
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    Its not star wars until you destroy at least one planet killing super weapon.

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