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Thread: US Politics Thread, 2.0

  1. #7101
    Movember '11 Best Facial Hair, Best 'Tache Movember 2011Movember 2012Donor helgur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Yeah, let's listen to the marginalized voice of the wall street for a change
    I'm not saying they are marginalized. I'm saying the US is an oligarchy, and this is the voice of the oligarchs, and it's well worth listening to what they have to say.

    Even if you don't like what they're saying.

    Not least because all those quoted are also big donors (or working for ones) to the Democratic party. What will they do if Bernie wins the primaries?

    Trump already has a billion in his coffers to spend on his campaign. Bloomberg has announced he'll spend a billion on this election. No matter who's the candidate.

    Given his reputation for flip-floppery, do you think he'll keep to his word when Bernie wins? I'm not so sure.

    And my goal is to get Trump out of the White House. So that's important. Getting Bernie elected? Not so much.

    Given that Bernie, should he win, probably won't be able to get any of his agenda done anyway, especially with a Republican senate, I'm just not that invested in Bernie (however much I like his agenda).
    I agree that the number one priority is getting Trump out of the white house, and any current and former Democratic candidate is better than Trump. But speaking of former candidates, Hillary Clinton was very much considered a "safe" and "established" candidate. She was probably according to the same Wall Street people you lend so much credence to, just as much a slam dunk as any current center-right candidate running now as the Democratic primary. And how did that turn out? Not so good. I think if you really want Trump out of the white house you can't lean towards the "safe" option. It has turned out to be anything but safe in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by evil edna View Post
    For Europe he literally is an centrist candidature to be fair
    I would think as a social democrat he is a center-left compared to European politics. He is certainly more left leaning than anything or anybody else on the Hill. He was a member of Socialist Party of America from his early days of activism, which was also a described itself as a social democratic party at the time.

  2. #7102
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    He still calls himself a democratic socialist. His policy platform is social democracy, however, and I am unsure what his actual ideological values are. His practical values are clear to see—basic human dignity by ensuring access to essentials—but unsurprisingly he hasn’t said much about who should own the means of production, and why.

  3. #7103
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    His healthcare strategy is so right wing that the British conservatives specifically told people they would never move to that model and would always stand up for the NHS.

    And that's in the UK, one of the more centre-right places in Europe right now so yeah I think it's fair to say Bernie is a centrist by European standards.

    Obviously those are different to American standards, for which he is the highest profile left wing figure for decades.


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  4. #7104
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    To be fair the NHS is unusual among single-payer systems in that not only does the government pay for coverage, it also (I think?) directly employs medical providers.

    Pretty much everywhere else the providers remain private, but the government provides coverage, which is what Sanders proposes.

  5. #7105
    Movember '11 Best Facial Hair, Best 'Tache Movember 2011Movember 2012Donor helgur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    His healthcare strategy is so right wing that the British conservatives specifically told people they would never move to that model and would always stand up for the NHS.

    And that's in the UK, one of the more centre-right places in Europe right now so yeah I think it's fair to say Bernie is a centrist by European standards.

    Obviously those are different to American standards, for which he is the highest profile left wing figure for decades.
    One thing is having the ideal universal healthcare system put in place, another one is what kind of system is feasible possible politically with a healthcare system such as the US within a 4 year time/term. I would like to know specifically what he has proposed that makes his vision so unpalatable by European standards

  6. #7106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    To be fair the NHS is unusual among single-payer systems in that not only does the government pay for coverage, it also (I think?) directly employs medical providers.

    Pretty much everywhere else the providers remain private, but the government provides coverage, which is what Sanders proposes.
    NHS would be tough to do, but better in the long run if we could nationalize the hospital system. That way you knock down both hospital consortiums and insurance companies as a political force. And you wont have to constantly fight and negotiate with hospitals over how much they want to bill Medicare
    Last edited by mewninn; February 13 2020 at 12:22:04 AM.

  7. #7107
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    To be fair the NHS is unusual among single-payer systems in that not only does the government pay for coverage, it also (I think?) directly employs medical providers.

    Pretty much everywhere else the providers remain private, but the government provides coverage, which is what Sanders proposes.
    NHS would be tough to do, but better in the long run if we could nationalize the hospital system. That way you knock down both hospital consortiums and insurance companies as a political force. And you wont have to constantly fight and negotiate with hospitals over how much they want to bill Medicare
    Yeah but that’s like, slavery for doctors! /randpaul

    But assuming anything in America can be nationalized, I don’t think it’d be the hospitals. I don’t think people would support it, at all—they be more likely to support nationalizing the fossil fuel or power industries long before healthcare.

  8. #7108
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    Didn't they nationalise the banking industry a few years back? /jk

  9. #7109
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    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    His healthcare strategy is so right wing that the British conservatives specifically told people they would never move to that model and would always stand up for the NHS.

    And that's in the UK, one of the more centre-right places in Europe right now so yeah I think it's fair to say Bernie is a centrist by European standards.

    Obviously those are different to American standards, for which he is the highest profile left wing figure for decades.
    One thing is having the ideal universal healthcare system put in place, another one is what kind of system is feasible possible politically with a healthcare system such as the US within a 4 year time/term. I would like to know specifically what he has proposed that makes his vision so unpalatable by European standards
    Very little actual policy

  10. #7110
    Movember '11 Best Facial Hair, Best 'Tache Movember 2011Movember 2012Donor helgur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varcaus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    His healthcare strategy is so right wing that the British conservatives specifically told people they would never move to that model and would always stand up for the NHS.

    And that's in the UK, one of the more centre-right places in Europe right now so yeah I think it's fair to say Bernie is a centrist by European standards.

    Obviously those are different to American standards, for which he is the highest profile left wing figure for decades.
    One thing is having the ideal universal healthcare system put in place, another one is what kind of system is feasible possible politically with a healthcare system such as the US within a 4 year time/term. I would like to know specifically what he has proposed that makes his vision so unpalatable by European standards
    Very little actual policy
    That's peculiar given all the "socialist" rhetoric. WTF

  11. #7111
    Kai's Avatar
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    He's being deliberately vague on details but broad on intent.

    Look at the failures of Shorten and Corbyn: they failed in part through a failure to articulate a vision not through having solid policies. Sanders looks to me to be going the other route.

  12. #7112
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    There's already a M4A bill in congress that he supports:

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...bill/1384/text

    Bernie is making a moral argument for why healthcare should change. Arguing in technocratic terms just means getting bogged down in details

  13. #7113
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Varcaus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    His healthcare strategy is so right wing that the British conservatives specifically told people they would never move to that model and would always stand up for the NHS.

    And that's in the UK, one of the more centre-right places in Europe right now so yeah I think it's fair to say Bernie is a centrist by European standards.

    Obviously those are different to American standards, for which he is the highest profile left wing figure for decades.
    One thing is having the ideal universal healthcare system put in place, another one is what kind of system is feasible possible politically with a healthcare system such as the US within a 4 year time/term. I would like to know specifically what he has proposed that makes his vision so unpalatable by European standards
    Very little actual policy
    That's peculiar given all the "socialist" rhetoric. WTF
    Half of the words that Fox News are just that.

    People understand them as vague terms for their daily hate. Ask the average y'all quaida member to articulate what socialism actually is and I'll bet they can't.
    meh

  14. #7114

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    Also by Finnish political standards your commie-Bernie would be fit to lead our right-leaning conservative party no problem...

  15. #7115
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    There's already a M4A bill in congress that he supports:

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...bill/1384/text

    Bernie is making a moral argument for why healthcare should change. Arguing in technocratic terms just means getting bogged down in details
    “Bernie never makes any clear policy statements!”

    “Actually, here’s docketed legislation setting out the exact policy.”

  16. #7116
    Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    There's already a M4A bill in congress that he supports:

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...bill/1384/text

    Bernie is making a moral argument for why healthcare should change. Arguing in technocratic terms just means getting bogged down in details
    “Bernie never makes any clear policy statements!”

    “Actually, here’s docketed legislation setting out the exact policy.”
    Sorry, my point may have been lost. He's not selling the policy: he's selling the vision. The policy is a means to an end, not the end in itself.

  17. #7117
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    Jesus Christ its like reading a hand wringing New York Times op ed written by someone whose entire career has been working the consulting grift for the DNC.

    How are you so incapable of having any form of analysis which isn't treating politics like a character drama?
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  18. #7118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Jesus Christ its like reading a hand wringing New York Times op ed written by someone whose entire career has been working the consulting grift for the DNC.

    How are you so incapable of having any form of analysis which isn't treating politics like a character drama?
    Being entirely detached from sense and the universe does that to you.

    But hey. I hear Hillary won, so he must know what he's talking about.

  19. #7119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    There's already a M4A bill in congress that he supports:

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...bill/1384/text

    Bernie is making a moral argument for why healthcare should change. Arguing in technocratic terms just means getting bogged down in details
    “Bernie never makes any clear policy statements!”

    “Actually, here’s docketed legislation setting out the exact policy.”
    Sorry, my point may have been lost. He's not selling the policy: he's selling the vision. The policy is a means to an end, not the end in itself.
    this is precisely what the core of politics is supposed to be though. "we're going to fiddle with tax credit!" doesn't mobilize voters "we're going to build a public healthcare system!" does.

    policy as a end in itself is a liberal disease.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  20. #7120
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Can I also point out that Trump has hardly laid a finger on Bernie thus far.

    The worst he's done is call him 'Crazy Bernie' basically (a nickname which also hasn't caught on).

    Now some here will now claim that's because he has nothing to attack Bernie on.

    But that's bullshit. He send Giuliany half way around the world to solicit/find dirt on Biden (who he actually fears running against).

    No, In think the reason is that he knows that Bernie is not much of a threat. In other words: he'd love running against Bernie.

    He might lose the rustbelt to Bernie (perhaps), but he'll pick up far far more electoral votes in states like Florida, Pennsylvania, and the south.

    Those polls that put Bernie winning with 5 points in a one-on-one with Trump? I think those numbers are soft. For Bernie.

    Sorry, but I just don't think the 'revolution' is happening. Or will. It'll just be Corbyn^2.
    Who else is looking forward to the $60-billion “Criticizing Mike Bloomberg is antisemitism” machine?

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