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Thread: US Politics Thread, 2.0

  1. #6441
    LobbyZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    So this report talks about all intel gathering activities of Russians, how they penetrated several election related databases (voter registration info) but there was no proof that they modified anything.

    OK - if that intel report is the Truth, we have established that Russia did not hack the election.

    The points of contention here seem to be that:

    The DNC leaks (if released by Russian actors) caused Trump to be elected (by revealing how corrupt the DNC is). Is this a fair statement?

    Trump or his team have had at least one contact with Russian state actors in the past or during the election. The leap then is that this proves that he is in cahoots with them? This to me seems like bullshit, but if you believe that this is a strawman or to be the case, please explain your case as if I was just like 60% of the voting population.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern
    NG doesn't want to talk about the emails.
    What about the DNC emails? What is the problem here?

    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn
    lol shut up you nerd, you live in a democracy that actually works. We tried the "just debate them better!" approach and it failed miserably.

    We're not gonna win with better charts and fact checks. There has to be a compelling story that counters what the pepes are selling
    So what do you suggest? I should watch your brand of propaganda to get on with the narrative?
    "russia didnt hack anything they didnt modify anything!"

    ""russia did penetrate databases and so on"

    what's wrong with your critical thinking?

    Have you not seen the amount of disinformation?
    [marquee][/marquee]

  2. #6442
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LobbyZ View Post

    what's wrong with your critical thinking?
    Can there be something wrong with something you don't have?
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  3. #6443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LobbyZ View Post

    what's wrong with your critical thinking?
    Can there be something wrong with something you don't have?

  4. #6444
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Bart seems to live in an eternal 2005 where neoliberalism was great
    it was not great in 2005 either.
    It looked better.
    That's because it was propped up by massive amounts of fraud.
    And Bart still hasn't noticed the fraud. The metaphor is fine leave me alone
    Bart knows there's fraud going on, he just thinks we should elect people who won't do anything about it. Because managed decline is the safest play in his book

  5. #6445
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Neon Gabriel is a valuable reminder of the kind of person that invalidates Barth's hopes of a sensible, rational outcome.

    Although one would have thought 2016 would have been sufficient evidence, 2017, 2018 and 2019 have surely made it plain that they're choosing their own facts, and they reject the old rational, empirical consensus. I wish it weren't so, but there we are. Racially driven reactionary authoritarianism and the snowballing effects of climate change are going to feed into a spiral that destroys most of what we hold dear and self evident. The absolute best outcome we can hope for is that the worst of it confines itself to the US, although I'm frankly not optimistic in that regard.

    Pour a glass and enjoy yourselves, everyone. You might as well.
    My envisioned future may rely on hopium, it's still a lot more attractive than yours.

    I mean, damn ...
    My present has a glass of good Malbec though

    Lay in a stock so you can toast yourself through the next couple of decades (there's some hopium for you!). Open a new bottle every time another Rwanda kicks off, because the US is definitely headed down that trajectory at the moment. China is going to be pretty fucking bloody for another, and I don't see them not exporting that bloodiness to their neighbours as vigorously as possible. And that's going to be a problem because one of those neighbours is India, and they've got gigantic looming bloodiness of their own. And they both have WMDs, real ones not the bullshit Iraqi kind.

    Africa and South America will probably come off best. Europe is following a decade or so behind the US path, and maybe that's going to discredit the notion, but the EU economy is so tightly bound into just-in-time supply chains and raw materials and labour from Asia (kiss both of those goodbye once the Chinese start getting Imperial) that it's going to be really really tough.

    EDIT: the tl;dr is that I expect that no more than 50% of the under-70s alive today to die of old age.
    Last edited by Malcanis; December 9 2019 at 05:47:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
    I love Malcanis!

  6. #6446
    Donor Sparq's Avatar
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    Ah yes climate change.

    By 2050 we'll be stockpiling +30 days of food so we don't have to go out during "The Scorch", an approximately month long period of +50 degree C Summer weather.

    Bushfires so bad we reintroduce corporal punishment for the mentally ill caught lighting them to appease the conservative chuds. Fires so big in conditions so bad the volunteer service refuse to go out because too many have died trying and we start press-ganging prisoners and welfare recipients.

    People are already talking of getting the ADF to help fight fires but by then they'll be busy elsewhere...

    If my government hates refugees now, I can't wait to see how they cope with 150,000,000 Vietnamese being flooded out of their own country because we did nothing to stop warming.

    We all saw what just happened to Bolivia... no big surprise a week later we're handing over our rare earths to Uncle Sam. What happens when we run out? Shit, hope we think of something.
    Last edited by Sparq; December 9 2019 at 07:15:17 PM.

  7. #6447
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparq View Post
    Ah yes climate change.

    By 2050 we'll be stockpiling +30 days of food so we don't have to go out during "The Scorch", an approximately month long period of +50 degree C Summer weather.

    Bushfires so bad we reintroduce corporal punishment for the mentally ill caught lighting them to appease the conservative chuds. Fires so big in conditions so bad the volunteer service refuse to go out because too many have died trying and we start press-ganging prisoners and welfare recipients.

    People are already talking of getting the ADF to help fight fires but by then they'll be busy elsewhere...

    If my government hates refugees now, I can't wait to see how they cope with 150,000,000 Vietnamese being flooded out of their own country because we did nothing to stop warming.

    We all saw what just happened to Bolivia... no big surprise a week later we're handing over our rare earths to Uncle Sam. What happens when we run out? Shit, hope we think of something.
    To Uncle Pooh, more like.

    EDIT: Does Australia have nukes? Better get some real soon now unless you want to be the Southern Resource Area.
    Last edited by Malcanis; December 9 2019 at 07:52:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
    I love Malcanis!

  8. #6448
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    WASHINGTON (AP) — The FBI was justified in opening its investigation into ties between the Trump presidential campaign and Russia and did not act with political bias, despite "serious performance failures" up the bureau's chain of command, the Justice Department's internal watchdog said in a highly anticipated report Monday. The findings undercut President Donald Trump's claim that he was the target of a 'witch hunt.'
    https://apnews.com/a734c40d142c8950f57ad4c8f8af565c

    :surprisedpikachuface:

    The fucking deep state, tricky they are, playing every 5D chess move in 7D.
    meh

  9. #6449
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    News at 11: when you look at a bearucracy in extreme detail you find that it basically functions as intended but with masses of non-fatal issues.

  10. #6450
    Donor Sparq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    EDIT: Does Australia have nukes? Better get some real soon now unless you want to be the Southern Resource Area.
    No, we were meant to get the tech in the 50/60 era (partly because we allowed them to test devices here) but the UK shafted us on the deal, the public got woke and so the domestic program fizzled out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    To Uncle Pooh, more like.
    Yes & no. China is a big trade partner and that will continue in spite of our xenophobia and their pretty ham-fisted espionage attempts.

    With regards to rare earths, a week after Bolivia this was published and a follow-up. People were linking Bolivia to the jump in Tesla stock but honestly it was probably more to do with this being close to finalization.

    The problem we're going to have, is having something to offer the US once we eventually go dry. People generally prefer the term 'client state' but we're essentially a satrapy for the US. Once we eventually expend the easy-to-access minerals, we're going to have to weigh increasing environmental degradation to keep under the US umbrella. It's the double-edged sword of the damage Donal Drumpf has done to our trust in US strategic alliances. On the one hand, we're probably going to feel the squeeze with regard to being as useful as possible to the US. Which is great for the US! Not so much for us. On the other, whose to say the government of the day doesn't say 'fuck it' and go with the highest bidder for whatever we have left. Honestly between our xenophobia and susceptibility to propaganda (plus a pretty weak political class) I wager we'll remain a satrapy beyond my lifetime.
    Last edited by Sparq; December 10 2019 at 06:00:14 AM.

  11. #6451

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparq View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    EDIT: Does Australia have nukes? Better get some real soon now unless you want to be the Southern Resource Area.
    No, we were meant to get the tech in the 50/60 era (partly because we allowed them to test devices here) but the UK shafted us on the deal, the public got woke and so the domestic program fizzled out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    To Uncle Pooh, more like.
    Yes & no. China is a big trade partner and that will continue in spite of our xenophobia and their pretty ham-fisted espionage attempts.

    With regards to rare earths, a week after Bolivia this was published and a follow-up. People were linking Bolivia to the jump in Tesla stock but honestly it was probably more to do with this being close to finalization.

    The problem we're going to have, is having something to offer the US once we eventually go dry. People generally prefer the term 'client state' but we're essentially a satrapy for the US. Once we eventually expend the easy-to-access minerals, we're going to have to weigh increasing environmental degradation to keep under the US umbrella. It's the double-edged sword of the damage Donal Drumpf has done to our trust in US strategic alliances. On the one hand, we're probably going to feel the squeeze with regard to being as useful as possible to the US. Which is great for the US! Not so much for us. On the other, whose to say the government of the day doesn't say 'fuck it' and go with the highest bidder for whatever we have left. Honestly between our xenophobia and susceptibility to propaganda (plus a pretty weak political class) I wager we'll remain a satrapy beyond my lifetime.
    Shuld'av kept the lassie in charge ...

  12. #6452

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  13. #6453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    InB4 it gets trashed.

  14. #6454
    Donor Sparq's Avatar
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    It's America in late 2019, it's just as likely to provoke a gun attack on the congregation by some chud as be trashed by one.

  15. #6455
    Donor Pattern's Avatar
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    Americans under the age of 40, for their part, are historically well educated, historically peaceful, and historically law-abiding. But this impressive résumé of conscientiousness hasn’t translated into much economic or political power.

    Instead, young Americans beset with high student debt ran into the buzz saw of a painful recession and slow recovery. Today they are poorer, in income and in wealth, than similarly young groups of previous decades. “In the U.S, as in the U.K. and in much of Europe, 2008 was the end of the end of history,” says Keir Milburn, the author of Generation Left, a book on young left-wing movements. “The last decade in the U.K. has been the worst decade for wage growth for 220 years. In the U.S., this generation is the first in a century that expects to have lower lifetime earnings than their parents. It has created an epochal shift.”

    Young Americans demanding more power, control, and justice have veered sharply to the left. This lurch was first evident in the two elections of Barack Obama, when he won the youth vote by huge margins. And young Americans didn’t edge back to the political center under Obama; they just kept moving left. Obama won about 60 percent of voters younger than 30 in the 2008 primary. Bernie Sanders won more than 70 percent of under-30 voters in the 2016 primary, which pushed Hillary Clinton to the left and dragged issues like Medicare for All and free college from the fringe to the mainstream of political debate.

    To many observers, it might seem like young voters have remade the Democratic Party in their image—as a claque of “woke” socialists. In May, the historian Niall Ferguson and Eyck Freymann, a research analyst, wrote in The Atlantic that the U.S. was at the brink of a great generation war, in which older conservative Republicans would do battle with Democrats, who were “rapidly becoming the party of the young."

    But upon closer examination, the Democrats aren’t really the party of the young—or, for that matter, of social-justice leftists. In the most sophisticated poll of the Iowa caucus, Joe Biden polled at 2 percent among voters under 30, within the margin of error of zero. Nationally, he is in single digits among Millennials, the generation born between 1981 and 1996. Yet Biden is the Democratic front-runner for the 2020 presidential nomination, thanks to his huge advantage among older voters—especially older black voters—who are considerably more moderate than younger Democrats.

    Bernie Sanders, by contrast, leads all candidates among voters under 30 and polls just 5 percent among voters over 65. In a national Quinnipiac poll asking voters which candidate has the best ideas, Sanders crushes Biden 27 percent to 4 percent among those under 35 and receives an equal and opposite crushing at the hands of Biden among voters over 65: 28 percent to 4 percent.

    Age ‬doesn’t just divide Republicans and Democrats from each other, in other words; age divides young leftists from both Republicans and Democrats. Democrats under 30 have almost no measurable interest in the party’s front-runner. Democrats over 65 have almost no measurable interest in the favored candidate of the younger generation. ‬This is not a picture of Democrats smoothly transforming into the “party of the young.” It’s evidence that age—perhaps even more than class or race—is now the most important fault line within the Democratic Party.‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...tm_source=digg

  16. #6456
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    the solution is simple, we must eat the boomers

    maybe when the next financial crash happens we'll see some real unrest

  17. #6457
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    It’s evidence that age—perhaps even more than class or race—is now the most important fault line within the Democratic Party.‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬
    This is a bit of weird take considering earlier in the article:
    In the U.S., this generation is the first in a century that expects to have lower lifetime earnings than their parents. It has created an epochal shift
    What this shows is that the modern class divisions have coalesced with a generational shift (or drag) of wealth and capital ownership. It also shows that non-materialist descriptions of class are fairly shit at describing reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  18. #6458

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    Americans under the age of 40, for their part, are historically well educated, historically peaceful, and historically law-abiding. But this impressive résumé of conscientiousness hasn’t translated into much economic or political power.

    Instead, young Americans beset with high student debt ran into the buzz saw of a painful recession and slow recovery. Today they are poorer, in income and in wealth, than similarly young groups of previous decades. “In the U.S, as in the U.K. and in much of Europe, 2008 was the end of the end of history,” says Keir Milburn, the author of Generation Left, a book on young left-wing movements. “The last decade in the U.K. has been the worst decade for wage growth for 220 years. In the U.S., this generation is the first in a century that expects to have lower lifetime earnings than their parents. It has created an epochal shift.”

    Young Americans demanding more power, control, and justice have veered sharply to the left. This lurch was first evident in the two elections of Barack Obama, when he won the youth vote by huge margins. And young Americans didn’t edge back to the political center under Obama; they just kept moving left. Obama won about 60 percent of voters younger than 30 in the 2008 primary. Bernie Sanders won more than 70 percent of under-30 voters in the 2016 primary, which pushed Hillary Clinton to the left and dragged issues like Medicare for All and free college from the fringe to the mainstream of political debate.

    To many observers, it might seem like young voters have remade the Democratic Party in their image—as a claque of “woke” socialists. In May, the historian Niall Ferguson and Eyck Freymann, a research analyst, wrote in The Atlantic that the U.S. was at the brink of a great generation war, in which older conservative Republicans would do battle with Democrats, who were “rapidly becoming the party of the young."

    But upon closer examination, the Democrats aren’t really the party of the young—or, for that matter, of social-justice leftists. In the most sophisticated poll of the Iowa caucus, Joe Biden polled at 2 percent among voters under 30, within the margin of error of zero. Nationally, he is in single digits among Millennials, the generation born between 1981 and 1996. Yet Biden is the Democratic front-runner for the 2020 presidential nomination, thanks to his huge advantage among older voters—especially older black voters—who are considerably more moderate than younger Democrats.

    Bernie Sanders, by contrast, leads all candidates among voters under 30 and polls just 5 percent among voters over 65. In a national Quinnipiac poll asking voters which candidate has the best ideas, Sanders crushes Biden 27 percent to 4 percent among those under 35 and receives an equal and opposite crushing at the hands of Biden among voters over 65: 28 percent to 4 percent.

    Age ‬doesn’t just divide Republicans and Democrats from each other, in other words; age divides young leftists from both Republicans and Democrats. Democrats under 30 have almost no measurable interest in the party’s front-runner. Democrats over 65 have almost no measurable interest in the favored candidate of the younger generation. ‬This is not a picture of Democrats smoothly transforming into the “party of the young.” It’s evidence that age—perhaps even more than class or race—is now the most important fault line within the Democratic Party.‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...tm_source=digg
    Can't say that I'm surprised by those numbers ...

  19. #6459
    mewninn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    Americans under the age of 40, for their part, are historically well educated, historically peaceful, and historically law-abiding. But this impressive résumé of conscientiousness hasn’t translated into much economic or political power.
    Maybe that's why we don't have much power in the first place

    The under 40s bent over backwards to accommodate employers in the recession and the non-recovery recovery. Look where that got us.

  20. #6460
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    Americans under the age of 40, for their part, are historically well educated, historically peaceful, and historically law-abiding. But this impressive résumé of conscientiousness hasn’t translated into much economic or political power.
    Maybe that's why we don't have much power in the first place

    The under 40s bent over backwards to accommodate employers in the recession and the non-recovery recovery. Look where that got us.


    obligatory "change requires violence"

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