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Thread: US Politics Thread, 2.0

  1. #8681
    Liare's Avatar
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    modern leftism, a russian conspiracy!

    clearly, we are all hysterically imagining the material conditions that, rather predictably, led to this point over the last 15 years.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  2. #8682
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    He might be exaggerating but he's not entirely wrong
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

  3. #8683
    Keckers's Avatar
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    I suppose that it depends how much of the American left is solely on twitter and how much it exists on the ground. Labour is so weak in America at the moment that the left can barely even rely on the union movement which is so fractured it is fighting against the political establishment for survival rather than fighting against the power of capital.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  4. #8684
    Liare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    He might be exaggerating but he's not entirely wrong
    outside fuckery with elections is a given and has been for hundreds of years by now, imaging the FSB being able to skew the the US political landscape so that they, whole cloth, managed to manufacture a significant increase in far left sentiments out of nothing to the extend that it somehow prevented "mother" from claiming her throne is insanity.

    the Democrat's problem in this regard is not that there is, somehow trough the magic of interwebs, a magical Russian troll farm dominating the "internal narrative", it's that there is a complete lack of willingness to compromise if anybody who holds a political position left of Reagan in the party establishment, as evidenced by almost 30 years of policy.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  5. #8685

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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post
    I'm personally inclined to believe there was also an army of trolls trying to amplify the fringe "Bernie Bro" beliefs and drive a wedge between young progressives and the rest of the left.
    I am 100% convinced the internal narratives of the democratic party are entirely dominated by Russian-manufactured controversy that aims in particular to radicalise American leftish youth to the point they just completely disengage with the political process, or vote for someone so absurd they destroy the country with their incompetence. Not even a little bit kidding.
    I see you've entirely stopped pretending to be sane and reasonable.

  6. #8686
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaztick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post
    I'm personally inclined to believe there was also an army of trolls trying to amplify the fringe "Bernie Bro" beliefs and drive a wedge between young progressives and the rest of the left.
    I am 100% convinced the internal narratives of the democratic party are entirely dominated by Russian-manufactured controversy that aims in particular to radicalise American leftish youth to the point they just completely disengage with the political process, or vote for someone so absurd they destroy the country with their incompetence. Not even a little bit kidding.
    Simpler than that, they see berniebros as useful idiots.
    we need more female police and prison guards. we need more diversity in corporate boardrooms too

    these are the issues that americans care about the most

  7. #8687

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    modern leftism, a russian conspiracy!
    It's interesting that you interpret that as an attack on what you're terming "modern leftism". Who do you think the incompetent candidate is that I referred to?

  8. #8688

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post
    I'm personally inclined to believe there was also an army of trolls trying to amplify the fringe "Bernie Bro" beliefs and drive a wedge between young progressives and the rest of the left.
    I am 100% convinced the internal narratives of the democratic party are entirely dominated by Russian-manufactured controversy that aims in particular to radicalise American leftish youth to the point they just completely disengage with the political process, or vote for someone so absurd they destroy the country with their incompetence. Not even a little bit kidding.
    I see you've entirely stopped pretending to be sane and reasonable.
    The evidence of widespread intervention in online fora is huge, as is the resulting impact in terms of triggering aggression and divergence in discourse. The longer term political impact is speculative, but if the Tea Party (backed by corporate, rather than national interests) were able to completely astroturf their way to a radicalised far right wingnut in the presidency, in order to destabilise the federal government so they could take over the country via the state houses, why is it so far beyond the realms of sanity that the same is happening on the other side due to foreign intervention?

  9. #8689

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    I suppose that it depends how much of the American left is solely on twitter and how much it exists on the ground.
    Doesn't really matter how representative of the American left it is in reality. What matters is that it is sufficiently notable to give the "other side" a punching bag in order to promote a continuing narrative of us vs them, because there's no voice left in the market to moderate that with the actual, more moderate reality. The fact that this also benefits significant chunks of the corporate interest means that any national interests that do get involved are simply getting more bang for their buck.

  10. #8690
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    One of the features of mass media is you can completely distort reality to fit whatever narrative best helps your viewing figures. Humans have a poor grasp of proportionality when selecting deliberately small data sets.

    Shall I chalk this into the 'the situationists were right' column? There isn't much space left.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  11. #8691
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nax View Post
    America will never make poor people whole for their pandemic losses and a lot of them are in an exceedingly precarious position. You're going to see a lot of divorces, lost houses, lost apartments, lost cars, lost livelihoods and lost hope. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the deaths from the economic shock were several times the deaths from coronavirus a few years down the road.

    However not shutting down the country would massively increase the coronavirus deaths, probably into the millions and a lot of economic damage would happen anyway as people stopped going out in public of their own accord.

    Then there's the risk that by letting the coronavirus run free it will mutate to such an extent that the vaccines under development don't work for all the strains and you essentially get a much more lethal and contagious multi-strain flu surging continually around the world.

    Imo Prudence dictates a shutdown and a UBI equivalent. Probably coupled with loan, mortgage and rent suspension.

    Or you could give shitloads of free money to bankers and private equity guys to buy up all the distressed assets and then jack up everyone's rents and laugh as deaths of despair spiral upwards.
    Eventually, people get hurt enough and then Senőr Choppy gets to play La Cucharacha all summer long...
    meh

  12. #8692
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    He might be exaggerating but he's not entirely wrong
    How much do you think they affect thinking on the right as well?
    meh

  13. #8693

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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    He might be exaggerating but he's not entirely wrong
    How much do you think they affect thinking on the right as well?
    You don't need to employ an army of trolls to corrupt the narrative when Rupert Murdoch will do it for you :thinking:

  14. #8694
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    He might be exaggerating but he's not entirely wrong
    How much do you think they affect thinking on the right as well?
    You don't need to employ an army of trolls to corrupt the narrative when Rupert Murdoch will do it for you :thinking:
    Actually, Murdoch seems to be becoming old hat really. You can see this in Trumps move to pimp OAN. They seem much more his brand of slurpy. Fox seems to have insulted him or let a guest insult him for the last time.

    No, when you say it's a legit broadband attack, it is. I don't think the troll farms and stupid people believing them on facebook is a left or right issue.
    meh

  15. #8695
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    He might be exaggerating but he's not entirely wrong
    How much do you think they affect thinking on the right as well?
    It's thoroughly documented that they've been a significant factor, why do you ask?
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

  16. #8696
    Liare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    modern leftism, a russian conspiracy!
    It's interesting that you interpret that as an attack on what you're terming "modern leftism". Who do you think the incompetent candidate is that I referred to?
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post
    I'm personally inclined to believe there was also an army of trolls trying to amplify the fringe "Bernie Bro" beliefs and drive a wedge between young progressives and the rest of the left.
    I am 100% convinced the internal narratives of the democratic party are entirely dominated by Russian-manufactured controversy that aims in particular to radicalise American leftish youth to the point they just completely disengage with the political process, or vote for someone so absurd they destroy the country with their incompetence. Not even a little bit kidding.
    considering that post is what i replied to, why ask such a inanely dumb question in the first place ? do you perhaps believe in horseshoe theory ?
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  17. #8697
    Keckers's Avatar
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    The important thing here is Sanders dropping out of the race helped a bunch of health insurance stocks go up.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  18. #8698
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    The important thing here is Sanders dropping out of the race helped a bunch of health insurance stocks go up.

  19. #8699
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilalaunebör View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    You're voting for people to die one way or the other.

    Mostly the old, sick, and otherwise underlying condition folks in the major cities vs. the various forms of widespread death and destitution that come with economic destruction.

    I think it's fair to have empathy for both folks at risk here, those who get sick, and those who will be destroyed by this shutdown in every meaningful way.

    If it says anything, it says we need a materially better system of social safety net here in the U.S.

    Like I said, and no disrespect to the great minds here at FHC, but I'll wait and see what the academics have to say long down the road when the full picture is clear.

    Presuming I don't get COVID and die, of course.
    Yeah okay, but what is important is what the right call to make is now. And the worst-case risks for pandemic vs depression are still worse for the pandemic. I fully expect some post-fact fingerwagging by the intellectual backbench once this is over, but right now there is no such thing as being too cautious.
    I tend to agree, personally.

    But I also feel for the 6 million new unemployed this week. And the tens of thousands of business owners who will see their investments and dreams die because of this.

    One resource that isn't limited is empathy. I feel for every sick person and family that has lost someone.

    But I also feel a heap of empathy for all those for whom this pandemic is a sure-fire economic death, and perhaps an actual one when all is said and done.


  20. #8700
    evil edna's Avatar
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    you can rebuild businesses, cant rebuild being dead

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