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Thread: US Politics Thread, 2.0

  1. #8641
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Trump is going to win with even less total votes than he did in 2016 if......
    Democrats losing twice back to back to a literally unelectable reality-tv moron?

    Who woulda guessed.

    One day the Dems won't fuck it all up. One day.
    The dems will always fuck it up. America needs a left wing party to emerge from the Bernie movement.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  2. #8642
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Trump is going to win with even less total votes than he did in 2016 if......
    Democrats losing twice back to back to a literally unelectable reality-tv moron?

    Who woulda guessed.

    One day the Dems won't fuck it all up. One day.
    The dems will always fuck it up. America needs a left wing party to emerge from the Bernie movement.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  3. #8643

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post

    do you honestly think a democratic president would have responded any faster considering how beholden to capital they are ?
    Yes.

    Now, this is an incredibly low bar, but yes. They might not have started ordering people to shelter in place any sooner (that's been on the states anyways) but they wouldn't have spent the whole of January going "Llalalalala I can't hear you!" the way Trump did.

    They wouldn't be feuding with states or silencing medical experts.

    Would they have done things perfectly? Absolutely not. Better? Fuck yes. Trump's behavior hasn't been about being 'beholden to capital,' it's been about ego and profiteering.

    Would the governors of dumbfuckistan still be fucking over their people by denying that there was anything to worry about? Probably, Bama gonna Bama. But even if you keep all the other dysfunction and replace the people at the top with some degree of competence rather than fucked Jared, you get a better response.
    Quarantined and loving life.

  4. #8644
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    Why is it called earth, when it is mostly water???

  5. #8645
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steckersaurus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post

    do you honestly think a democratic president would have responded any faster considering how beholden to capital they are ?
    Yes.

    Now, this is an incredibly low bar, but yes. They might not have started ordering people to shelter in place any sooner (that's been on the states anyways) but they wouldn't have spent the whole of January going "Llalalalala I can't hear you!" the way Trump did.

    They wouldn't be feuding with states or silencing medical experts.

    Would they have done things perfectly? Absolutely not. Better? Fuck yes. Trump's behavior hasn't been about being 'beholden to capital,' it's been about ego and profiteering.

    Would the governors of dumbfuckistan still be fucking over their people by denying that there was anything to worry about? Probably, Bama gonna Bama. But even if you keep all the other dysfunction and replace the people at the top with some degree of competence rather than fucked Jared, you get a better response.
    I'm also p sure no democrat would have ever done something like this.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/28/trum...-new-hoax.html

    You can ask me to squint and say "he really doesn't mean that and its about media bias blah blah", but as far as I'm concerned, he committed negligent homicide of americans with that statement.
    meh

  6. #8646
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by depili View Post
    And Sanders is out from the race
    I felt a great disturbance in the American Progressive movement, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.
    The absolute state of bernie bros.

    the problem with lesser evilism is that you're still picking a evil instead of opting not to play and delegitimizing the whole thing.

    there is a trade-off in there when the gap between the evils become small enough, can you really fault some people's reaction with that in mind ?
    The problem with both siderism is that there Is a fundimental difference between shooting one, or both feet, whether through ignorance or spite.
    It's obvious that Democrats feel no incentive to offer a positive program of government if they believe they can just blackmail voters into choosing the lesser evil. We have arguments about the courts, or about what Trump is doing, or the Obamacare protections. But they can't stand behind an effort to actively make life in America more equitable and less cruel. It's only more arguments about holding the line and stopping worse things from happening.

    It's also clear there's a good type of swing voter (pensioners in diners, affluent suburbanites) that aligns perfectly with the uptight culture and class interests of the DNC. And then there's a bad type of swing voter (disgruntled youth, Rogan/MMA crowd, progressives etc) who do not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steckersaurus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post

    do you honestly think a democratic president would have responded any faster considering how beholden to capital they are ?
    Yes.

    Now, this is an incredibly low bar, but yes. They might not have started ordering people to shelter in place any sooner (that's been on the states anyways) but they wouldn't have spent the whole of January going "Llalalalala I can't hear you!" the way Trump did.

    They wouldn't be feuding with states or silencing medical experts.

    Would they have done things perfectly? Absolutely not. Better? Fuck yes. Trump's behavior hasn't been about being 'beholden to capital,' it's been about ego and profiteering.

    Would the governors of dumbfuckistan still be fucking over their people by denying that there was anything to worry about? Probably, Bama gonna Bama. But even if you keep all the other dysfunction and replace the people at the top with some degree of competence rather than fucked Jared, you get a better response.
    The Democrats would've responded sooner yes. But I wouldn't take it as 100% certainty they would've responded fast enough. Many of the blue state governors were fucking around until the last minute, and only the west coast states have truly done a good job.

    Also the indifference to the economic carnage would still be there. The last Democratic president coasted through millions of foreclosures like it was a ho-hum nbd type thing. I'd expect an even worse attitude toward medical bankruptcies frankly
    Last edited by mewninn; April 8 2020 at 07:16:50 PM.

  7. #8647
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    you're supposing a incredible and unbelievable level of competence on behalf of the Democrats there. nobody outside of China and Korea took COVID-19 seriously in January, it was barely even "worrying" until late February when the first cases started popping up in Europe. everybody was sleeping in class on this one, because pandemics don't happen any more, or something.

    and my point is exactly that they would have feuded with the experts and states in private, with the experts first due to the enormous cost of combatting the pandemic, and the states afterwards to get them to actually do jack shit about it once the mass graves in central park popped up, no doubt hobbling themselves due to "decorum" and "compromise" and other such nonsense in the process.

    its different flavours of shit sandwich, not a choice between a shit sandwich and a regular one.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  8. #8648
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    you're supposing a incredible and unbelievable level of competence on behalf of the Democrats there. nobody outside of China and Korea took COVID-19 seriously in January, it was barely even "worrTying" until late February when the first cases started popping up in Europe. everybody was sleeping in class on this one, because pandemics don't happen any more, or something.

    and my point is exactly that they would have feuded with the experts and states in private, with the experts first due to the enormous cost of combatting the pandemic, and the states afterwards to get them to actually do jack shit about it once the mass graves in central park popped up, no doubt hobbling themselves due to "decorum" and "compromise" and other such nonsense in the process.

    its different flavours of shit sandwich, not a choice between a shit sandwich and a regular one.
    They would've reacted more quickly though. Trump has been absolutely catastrophic and we're eyeing "best case" scenarios with 100-200k dead.

    You don't necessarily endorse lesser evilism of elections by pointing out that there is actually a lesser evil.

  9. #8649
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    you're supposing a incredible and unbelievable level of competence on behalf of the Democrats there. nobody outside of China and Korea took COVID-19 seriously in January, it was barely even "worrying" until late February when the first cases started popping up in Europe. everybody was sleeping in class on this one, because pandemics don't happen any more, or something.

    and my point is exactly that they would have feuded with the experts and states in private, with the experts first due to the enormous cost of combatting the pandemic, and the states afterwards to get them to actually do jack shit about it once the mass graves in central park popped up, no doubt hobbling themselves due to "decorum" and "compromise" and other such nonsense in the process.

    its different flavours of shit sandwich, not a choice between a shit sandwich and a regular one.
    I'll also point out that the pretty much party line democrat governors of WA and CA probably both saved significant numbers of lives with literal "shut down everything" actions.

    So, I don't think they would have waffled about and gone to the pizza hut and told their citizens to pray the virus away like we saw out of republicans.
    meh

  10. #8650
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    you're supposing a incredible and unbelievable level of competence on behalf of the Democrats there. nobody outside of China and Korea took COVID-19 seriously in January, it was barely even "worrTying" until late February when the first cases started popping up in Europe. everybody was sleeping in class on this one, because pandemics don't happen any more, or something.

    and my point is exactly that they would have feuded with the experts and states in private, with the experts first due to the enormous cost of combatting the pandemic, and the states afterwards to get them to actually do jack shit about it once the mass graves in central park popped up, no doubt hobbling themselves due to "decorum" and "compromise" and other such nonsense in the process.

    its different flavours of shit sandwich, not a choice between a shit sandwich and a regular one.
    They would've reacted more quickly though. Trump has been absolutely catastrophic and we're eyeing "best case" scenarios with 100-200k dead.

    You don't necessarily endorse lesser evilism of elections by pointing out that there is actually a lesser evil.
    that i will happily concede that they would have reacted earlier, propably around the time you saw european responses that where not just guffaws at COVID-19, it is just my opinion that the obstruction they would have faced would have that much more severe especially when coupled by the rank ineffectualness of the party machinery, making it come out more or less even.

    "there is no alternative but the lesser evil" does not a compelling argument make to the voter or the people knocking on doors doing the grunt-work, that and 'rona is why they're going to set a new record low for electoral participation, the only question is what electoral group is the most demotivated to go out and vote later this year. Trump voters, or Democrat voters.

    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    I'll also point out that the pretty much party line democrat governors of WA and CA probably both saved significant numbers of lives with literal "shut down everything" actions.

    So, I don't think they would have waffled about and gone to the pizza hut and told their citizens to pray the virus away like we saw out of republicans.
    and resistance in red states would have been significantly higher, much of this is delegated to the state level, that is why your death-toll is going to be so catastrophic when this whole thing is done.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  11. #8651
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    you're supposing a incredible and unbelievable level of competence on behalf of the Democrats there. nobody outside of China and Korea took COVID-19 seriously in January, it was barely even "worrying" until late February when the first cases started popping up in Europe. everybody was sleeping in class on this one, because pandemics don't happen any more, or something.

    and my point is exactly that they would have feuded with the experts and states in private, with the experts first due to the enormous cost of combatting the pandemic, and the states afterwards to get them to actually do jack shit about it once the mass graves in central park popped up, no doubt hobbling themselves due to "decorum" and "compromise" and other such nonsense in the process.

    its different flavours of shit sandwich, not a choice between a shit sandwich and a regular one.
    I'll also point out that the pretty much party line democrat governors of WA and CA probably both saved significant numbers of lives with literal "shut down everything" actions.

    So, I don't think they would have waffled about and gone to the pizza hut and told their citizens to pray the virus away like we saw out of republicans.
    I'll be interested to see the after-action analysis by economists and social scientists on the "lives saved by shutting it all down" vs. the "lives destroyed and lost by shutting it all down".

    Also, on the "Dems would have reacted faster/better" question, lets remember that when Trump shut down travel to China, Dems and Dem-favoring media were louding declaring it racism, that COVID was nothign to worry about, that the Flu was worse, etc.

    Now, maybe if they were in power the script would have been flipped, but it is what it is.


  12. #8652
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    you're supposing a incredible and unbelievable level of competence on behalf of the Democrats there. nobody outside of China and Korea took COVID-19 seriously in January, it was barely even "worrying" until late February when the first cases started popping up in Europe. everybody was sleeping in class on this one, because pandemics don't happen any more, or something.

    and my point is exactly that they would have feuded with the experts and states in private, with the experts first due to the enormous cost of combatting the pandemic, and the states afterwards to get them to actually do jack shit about it once the mass graves in central park popped up, no doubt hobbling themselves due to "decorum" and "compromise" and other such nonsense in the process.

    its different flavours of shit sandwich, not a choice between a shit sandwich and a regular one.
    I'll also point out that the pretty much party line democrat governors of WA and CA probably both saved significant numbers of lives with literal "shut down everything" actions.

    So, I don't think they would have waffled about and gone to the pizza hut and told their citizens to pray the virus away like we saw out of republicans.
    I'll be interested to see the after-action analysis by economists and social scientists on the "lives saved by shutting it all down" vs. the "lives destroyed and lost by shutting it all down".
    You mean mass death then shut it all down anyway?

  13. #8653
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    you're supposing a incredible and unbelievable level of competence on behalf of the Democrats there. nobody outside of China and Korea took COVID-19 seriously in January, it was barely even "worrying" until late February when the first cases started popping up in Europe. everybody was sleeping in class on this one, because pandemics don't happen any more, or something.

    and my point is exactly that they would have feuded with the experts and states in private, with the experts first due to the enormous cost of combatting the pandemic, and the states afterwards to get them to actually do jack shit about it once the mass graves in central park popped up, no doubt hobbling themselves due to "decorum" and "compromise" and other such nonsense in the process.

    its different flavours of shit sandwich, not a choice between a shit sandwich and a regular one.
    I'll also point out that the pretty much party line democrat governors of WA and CA probably both saved significant numbers of lives with literal "shut down everything" actions.

    So, I don't think they would have waffled about and gone to the pizza hut and told their citizens to pray the virus away like we saw out of republicans.
    I'll be interested to see the after-action analysis by economists and social scientists on the "lives saved by shutting it all down" vs. the "lives destroyed and lost by shutting it all down".

    Also, on the "Dems would have reacted faster/better" question, lets remember that when Trump shut down travel to China, Dems and Dem-favoring media were louding declaring it racism, that COVID was nothign to worry about, that the Flu was worse, etc.

    Now, maybe if they were in power the script would have been flipped, but it is what it is.
    Can you provide some quotes from “dem media” where “the flu was worse”?
    meh

  14. #8654

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post

    Also, on the "Dems would have reacted faster/better" question, lets remember that when Trump shut down travel to China, Dems and Dem-favoring media were louding declaring it racism, that COVID was nothign to worry about, that the Flu was worse, etc.
    Because he didn't shut down travel from china. He shut down travel by chinese from china. There were still thousands of flights from China to the US.
    Quarantined and loving life.

  15. #8655
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Idk, this is all my googlefu could dredge up.

    Trump has repeatedly claimed that his decision to impose the travel restrictions on China “had Biden calling me xenophobic” and “racist.”

    On the day the White House announced the travel restrictions, Biden did say at a campaign event in Iowa that as the pandemic unfolds, Americans “need to have a president who they can trust what he says about it, that he is going to act rationally about it.” He added, “This is no time for Donald Trump’s record of hysteria and xenophobia – hysterical xenophobia – and fearmongering to lead the way instead of science.”

    The Biden campaign says Biden’s “reference to xenophobia was about Trump’s long record of scapegoating others at a time when the virus was emerging from China,” and that he was not talking about the travel ban.
    I mean, Ol' Joe ain't wrong here....
    meh

  16. #8656
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoirAvlaa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pattern View Post
    And I still can't get over this blinkered fantasy that the man who loses twice in the DNC cripple fight is somehow, magically more likely to win in the general.

    If he didn't have charisma, competence or political clout to beat the faded ghost of a man Obama, whipped 12 years ago, he's not going to beat trump, the rnc and the nasty bullshit all that entails dispite him polling... OK before the rnc have had a chance to construct a narrative that he's really the second coming of Hillary Clinton.
    rock paper scissors mate, where the first match up (dnc) is rock(sanders) vs paper(biden), and the winner of that round goes against scissors(trump)
    Pretty much this.

    Trump will flank left, and I put it at even odds that he wins as a result. Will depend on how effectively Biden manages to present himself between now and November, and how bad the pandemic ends up being. Probably also depends on his VP pick.

  17. #8657
    Donor Aea's Avatar
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    It's an old article but it checks out: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/21/u...rats-2020.html

    Didn't engage outside of his base, didn't try for endorsements, didn't try to build a diverse coalition.

    Didn't have his base come out to vote for him in the numbers needed (which alone probably would have shifted this to a true two-horse race or even to victory). The youth turnout which he banked his nomination on (despite decades of evidence for it being low and unreliable) went *down* or stayed flat as a relative percentage of primary voters.

    Nobody in my circle of friends, acquaintances and neighbors had anything but mild support for him. Contrast this to what you saw on Social Media, Bernie was treated as a shoe-in. It was Bernie or buried. I'll grant you I'm not claiming to be representative of an average Millennial or Gen-Z voter.

    I'm personally inclined to believe there was also an army of trolls trying to amplify the fringe "Bernie Bro" beliefs and drive a wedge between young progressives and the rest of the left. This sentiment seemed to spring out of no-where just like it did in 2016. The amount of vitriol and conspiracy theories (especially with Iowa) was insane, especially WRT Pete. And it's probably going to die out just as fast.

  18. #8658
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    The dude is almost 80. Most people have been retired for 10-15 years at his age. He's a good man, but setting himself up for one of the most stressful jobs in the world (assuming you actually do the job, instead of spending >$300m taxpayer dollars in 4 years on golfing holidays) was always going to be a questionable decision.
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

  19. #8659
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    The dude is almost 80. Most people have been retired for 10-15 years at his age. He's a good man, but setting himself up for one of the most stressful jobs in the world (assuming you actually do the job, instead of spending >$300m taxpayer dollars in 4 years on golfing holidays) was always going to be a questionable decision.
    Funny how Pete Buttigeig started out supporting Medicare for All and other progressive policies, made that statement about "Republicans are just going to call us socialists anyway, so let's not be afraid of that label," and then for some mysterious reason cut sharply to the right and abandoned his previous positions.

    The gerontocracy problem is real, and it's a problem that goes beyond ideology or party.

  20. #8660

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post
    It's an old article but it checks out: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/21/u...rats-2020.html

    Didn't engage outside of his base, didn't try for endorsements, didn't try to build a diverse coalition.

    Didn't have his base come out to vote for him in the numbers needed (which alone probably would have shifted this to a true two-horse race or even to victory).
    Thank you. Bernie is just sad. He has too much of an underdog mentality it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, he just doesn't have the psychology to let him see himself as the most powerful person in the US. Even when he was the front-runner and at his peak, he still acted like an outcast coming to destroy the Democrat party, instead of attempting to galvanize the party around himself like Biden successfully did. He's 80 years old and been in politics for how many years?? And what is of his faction? A bunch of new-comers, most of whom got there on their own.

    EDIT: Bernie didn't create the movement either. He is like a relic from the past that the movement found.
    Last edited by August; April 8 2020 at 09:55:10 PM.

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