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Thread: US Politics Thread, 2.0

  1. #14641

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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Yeah it is well known that being useful and beneficial to society is handsomely rewarded under capitalism.
    That isn’t what I said.
    Art is counter to capitalism, when you could be doing the manual/physical/mental labor to increase automation.

  2. #14642
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Yeah it is well known that being useful and beneficial to society is handsomely rewarded under capitalism.
    That isn’t what I said.
    That's the economic calculation all the boomer jet ski salesmen who wear red caps have made though.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  3. #14643

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    What percentage of enrolled students graduate? It isn't pay-to-gain-skill as in games

  4. #14644

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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post

    No, Teachers didn't choose the wrong profession, we don't value them correctly. Now if we could just get people to stop voting for the party leading this embarrassing state of affairs, but they won't, because racism. Until this country eradicates republicanism, it won't change.


    You could easily argue that the current teachers are, in fact, valued correctly. Most of them are fucking idiots. Yet another problem with education in the US. Of course, chicken-egg ...

    Let me add an edit, sorry. I do struggle with the role of the teacher in today's society. Honestly, I'm simply not sure what the value is today of a teacher who teaches Calculus, Newtonian Mechanics, History, Basic Chemistry, Intro Computer Science, etc. given that we have tools like Khan Academy. Teaching remotely this semester, can I justify my value compared to these online courses? It's not obvious to me.
    Last edited by August; November 22 2020 at 08:33:58 PM.

  5. #14645
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post

    No, Teachers didn't choose the wrong profession, we don't value them correctly. Now if we could just get people to stop voting for the party leading this embarrassing state of affairs, but they won't, because racism. Until this country eradicates republicanism, it won't change.


    You could easily argue that the current teachers are, in fact, valued correctly. Most of them are fucking idiots. Yet another problem with education in the US. Of course, chicken-egg ...
    What the fuck is wrong with Philosophy then?

    (I don't actually think IQ is that good a measure of anything, taken in isolation)
    meh

  6. #14646
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Yeah it is well known that being useful and beneficial to society is handsomely rewarded under capitalism.
    That isn’t what I said.
    That's the economic calculation all the boomer jet ski salesmen who wear red caps have made though.
    You a have a really preposterous view of America. Most of the red caps are leeching off the government teet, being subsidized rural people earning over $50k. They don't mind government checks, just when the wrong, black, people are getting them.
    meh

  7. #14647
    evil edna's Avatar
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    If teachers were paid better the job would attract better candidates

  8. #14648
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    Quote Originally Posted by evil edna View Post
    If teachers were paid better the job would attract better candidates
    That's why the bankers are all top men!
    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    Also that didn't sound like abloo bloo to me, PM me and we can agree on a meeting spot and settle this with queensberry rules, that's a serious offer btw. I've been a member of this community since 2005 and i've never met a more toxic individual.

  9. #14649
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    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Let me add an edit, sorry. I do struggle with the role of the teacher in today's society. Honestly, I'm simply not sure what the value is today of a teacher who teaches Calculus, Newtonian Mechanics, History, Basic Chemistry, Intro Computer Science, etc. given that we have tools like Khan Academy. Teaching remotely this semester, can I justify my value compared to these online courses? It's not obvious to me.
    Well, there's more to teaching than just conveying knowledge. There's the whole interpersonal relationship learning students do at school by interacting with teachers and students. How would you do that if not in school?

    Quote Originally Posted by evil edna View Post
    If teachers were paid better the job would attract better candidates
    Teachers are paid pretty decently paid here, yet not enough want to do it. Berlin had 1000 open positions last year in the Summer which they couldn't fill, even though they pay the highest entry wage in Germany (€67k). There's lots of stuff that makes people chose different jobs than being a teacher. Something that is often repeated is "I wouldn't want to deal with these children" or "I wouldn't want to deal with litigious parents." There are other reasons probably, but those are probably country specific.
    nevar forget

  10. #14650

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Let me add an edit, sorry. I do struggle with the role of the teacher in today's society. Honestly, I'm simply not sure what the value is today of a teacher who teaches Calculus, Newtonian Mechanics, History, Basic Chemistry, Intro Computer Science, etc. given that we have tools like Khan Academy. Teaching remotely this semester, can I justify my value compared to these online courses? It's not obvious to me.
    Well, there's more to teaching than just conveying knowledge. There's the whole interpersonal relationship learning students do at school by interacting with teachers and students. How would you do that if not in school?
    How much is that worth? You can get more senior students to TA for free in exchange of credits. Is a teacher worth 69k euro+health insurance+retirement more than a TA? Sal Khan discussed having teachers only for intervention-work, so that teachers interact mainly with those students who are flagged by the AI. Using this method, you could have a bunch of free TAs with 15 teachers for every 2000 students.

  11. #14651

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    Quote Originally Posted by dzajic View Post
    These are not people appearing from nowhere without any prior knowledge about the system. When you Murcians choose your university and your majors, you know very well how much it will cost you and what are actual employment chances and salaries for the profession you are choosing.
    You overestimate how much we tell our high school students. It's a little better these days (in that the next generation is more cynical already) but my generation really got screwed with the "go to college to get a good job" mantra. High schools are judged based on how many of their students get accepted to college, so they push everyone to go to college. College's want students, so they tell everyone that a degree at Whatever University will lead to a good job. Each major wants as many students as they can recruit, so they all tell you about the different careers you can have based on that major.

    No one wants to come out and say "This is a terrible decision, don't do it," because doing so would harm their careers. Now, Gen Z is doing a decent job of realizing that none of the adults telling them what to do actually have their best interests at heart, but millenials like me were sold all those tales and didn't realize they were horseshit until we graduated... right into the Great Recession.

    To point out some more specifics: We don't always know what a degree is going to cost when we start school. We think we do, but we can be wrong. The first college I attended had a reputation for offering everyone scholarships but having high standards for keeping them. This seems like a good thing until you realize that they're making school look affordable for people who might otherwise struggle to pay for it, but they're going to expect you to keep a 3.5gpa in college when you might have struggled to manage that in high school. In short, they're offering scholarships to a bunch of people who are unlikely to meet the standards necessary to keep them, which means that the cost of their degree is going to jump significantly in the second semester or second year. They plan out the finances based on that scholarship lasting all four years, they lose it after the first, suddenly the total cost goes up by $20-30k and they're taking out loans.

    I was fortunate in that my scholarship wasn't based on keeping my grades high, so I kept it all four years even as health issues hurt me academically.

    Another school I looked at going to looked like it would do something similar. They offered a lot of 'need based' financial aid. Basically, if you're poor, you get money to afford school. The year I was applying, my mom was still finishing her PhD, and we didn't have a ton of money. So I was offered an aid package worth something like $25k. Thing is, the next year, after she finished and started her high-paying career, that money would have vanished. I'd have been on the hook for another $25k per year. I saw this coming, and it's part of the reason I didn't choose that university.

    While I don't have as concrete examples regarding careers, four years is a long time. You can have your eye on a career path when you enter college and graduate to discover that it's not hiring anymore because of changes in the industry, or because the boomers went and shat on the economy again.



    Quote Originally Posted by evil edna View Post
    If teachers were paid better the job would attract better candidates
    Teaching would need to pay a lot better. And it really needs to, but it's going to be hard to find the money as long as education is financed locally.

    Example:

    My dad is a high school teacher. He's basically at the top of the payscale with 30+ years of experience and a masters + however many continuing education credits.

    He is in one of the wealthiest counties in the country, and as such one of the best paid school districts in the country.

    As an engineer in the defense industry, my salary will match or surpass his within 5 years of finishing undergrad and starting my career. Possibly less if I were highly motivated (I'm not). If I have a career anywhere near the length of his (unlikely) I will be paid anywhere between 2x and 4x what he is by the time I retire. My dad is an excellent teacher who has had a positive impact on the lives of a lot of students over the years. I am a decent, maybe slightly above average engineer.

    My parents both encouraged me to consider going into teaching because it's something I'd be good at. Unfortunately, the drastic difference in pay means I would have to really like it, and that's just not the case.

    I'm not sure what my point is. Teachers need to be paid better, no doubt. But depending on who you're trying to attract, you might need to pay them a lot better, and no one wants to spend that kind of money, no matter how worth it it is.

    And the way teacher payscales work, you can't set aside a pile of money for the people like me who would be good at it but won't do it, while continuing to pay everyone else less.
    Quarantined and loving life.

  12. #14652
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    How much is that worth? You can get more senior students to TA for free in exchange of credits. Is a teacher worth 69k euro+health insurance+retirement more than a TA? Sal Khan discussed having teachers only for intervention-work, so that teachers interact mainly with those students who are flagged by the AI. Using this method, you could have a bunch of free TAs with 15 teachers for every 2000 students.
    Are we talking about uni or high schools or elementary schools? Because I hope you're not arguing about having TAs teach at schools.

    Let's have some examples from my own school and the classes I teach in:
    How would TAs or the AI deal with (cyber) bullying?
    How do you deal with students that express radical political opinions?
    How do you deal with parents neglecting their children (food, clothing etc.)?
    A lot of low income families here show a distinct lack of interest in education. Their children do very little or no work at all at home. How would the AI motivate them?

    Who can the children talk to in situations where they can't talk to their parents?
    Will a TA take a student from a conservative family to planned parenthood for an abortion?
    Can they tell the AI that they got raped and that they need help to talk to the police?
    Would you have a TA host a meeting between the police and a mother and her delinquent son, so that the police can tell her, how crimes he committed in the past weeks? Would you have the TA watch the mother get on her knees and plead to her son?

    That's just this school year. That stuff is not easy to deal with. And sure you'll say that this kind of stuff will be dealt with by professionals and the easier students by TAs. But let's face it, if there's money to be saved, TAs and AI will do 100% of the work. And that's dangerous in my opinion.

    BTW Switzerland pays 50% more, Luxembourg pays double of what Berlin pays. Apparently to them teachers are worth even more.


    Tapapapatalk
    Last edited by Joe Appleby; November 23 2020 at 05:33:29 AM.
    nevar forget

  13. #14653
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    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Let me add an edit, sorry. I do struggle with the role of the teacher in today's society. Honestly, I'm simply not sure what the value is today of a teacher who teaches Calculus, Newtonian Mechanics, History, Basic Chemistry, Intro Computer Science, etc. given that we have tools like Khan Academy. Teaching remotely this semester, can I justify my value compared to these online courses? It's not obvious to me.
    Well, there's more to teaching than just conveying knowledge. There's the whole interpersonal relationship learning students do at school by interacting with teachers and students. How would you do that if not in school?
    How much is that worth? You can get more senior students to TA for free in exchange of credits. Is a teacher worth 69k euro+health insurance+retirement more than a TA? Sal Khan discussed having teachers only for intervention-work, so that teachers interact mainly with those students who are flagged by the AI. Using this method, you could have a bunch of free TAs with 15 teachers for every 2000 students.
    You still need to look how (good) university level teaching is done nowadays. Most of it is flipped (and I flip whenever I can), meaning that the students study the basic stuff before the class on their own and the actual lectures are for teaching more complex issues or resolving the questions that the students may have on basis of the mandatory pre-reading. Basically, most of my teaching is intervention work and giving targeted feedback, because that works. A TA can't do that.

    It's not Khan's idea anyway, it's what research into university pedagogy has shown. =)

    Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point. - Blaise Pascal, Pensées, 277

  14. #14654

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    Those that can do, those that carnt teach. Is definitely more the rule than the exception.

  15. #14655

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    Firstly, it's nowhere near as simple as that. Secondly, much of the time where that is the case it's because we pay and support teachers really badly, so those who can look at teaching and go "fuck that".

  16. #14656
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redmoore View Post
    Those that can do, those that carnt teach. Is definitely more the rule than the exception.
    it's also quite often 'those who did, teach'. Just depends at what level. There's a whole bunch of education contexts where if you don't have several years experience in the field you're fuck all use as a teacher.

  17. #14657

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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post

    No, Teachers didn't choose the wrong profession, we don't value them correctly. Now if we could just get people to stop voting for the party leading this embarrassing state of affairs, but they won't, because racism. Until this country eradicates republicanism, it won't change.
      Spoiler:




    You could easily argue that the current teachers are, in fact, valued correctly. Most of them are fucking idiots. Yet another problem with education in the US. Of course, chicken-egg ...
    What the fuck is wrong with Philosophy then?
    Maybe because it's the second field of interest/study for STEM scientists? E.g. Harald Lesch (think: German deGrass-Tyson) is an astro-physicist and philosopher.

    But yeah, IQ isn't the be-all, end-all.

  18. #14658
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    I always thought philosophy is tightly knit with natural sciences because it applies logic to human condition.

  19. #14659
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  20. #14660
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    But it’s misleading to state that Pekary’s letter was directed solely at the liberal MSNBC, because Pekary’s critique was aimed at the entirety of the commercial news industry, which she said offers viewers ideological bias-confirming sensationalism over informative and nuanced reporting.

    Pekary was forced to follow her original open letter with a clarification, noting that in reporting on her resignation, Fox News had inadvertently proved her point by misleadingly telling its audience that Pekary’s letter was directed solely at MSNBC.

    “MSNBC producer resigns from network with scathing letter: They block ‘diversity of thought’ and ‘amplify fringe voices,'” the Fox News headline reported.
    You should just go ahead and wear the red cap, and slurp on the tiny, shriveled, orange penis.. You use all their fake talking points anyway.
    meh

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