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Thread: US Politics Thread, 2.0

  1. #6161
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ego Proxy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    You know, primaries are an American thing. In other countries the parties select their leaders without running huge public elections. But then in other countries no one has to decide who they'll vote for outside of an actual election either. Nor are such decisions public.

    Tapapapatalk
    Not but you see
    Primaries as the Americans have them are almost unique. Those that exist in Europe are organized by the parties involved and not public administration.

    Tapapapatalk
    Yeah, maybe that distinction is important. The primaries, although a party mechanism, are completely run through the same voting apparatus as the presidential or any other vote.
    Although primaries in my locality, on a county level, are still organized by the parties involved; the public election office is only there to facilitate the process.
    This past election there was a school board position for the community college that was required to run through the primary due to the large number of candiates (11) compared to the number of available seats (3).
    And as an aside, the county I live in runs an outreach program where they will go to the local high schools to run their student council elections/etc through the same voting machines that are used for local/state/federal elections.
    Yeah, we get official state of CA/County ballots for ours, but you receive a ballot based on your party affiliation. Normally that is "Republican" and "Democrat/Independent/Unaffiliated". Like, they literally print different ballots.

    A lot of time, there are local and state ballot initiatives, dog catcher, etc running on the primary ballot as well, so more than just party business gets done on those.
    meh

  2. #6162
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post

    I personally believe our political system is no longer tenable due to the ultimate effects of Universal Suffrage. By this I don't mean that vote should be restricted to rich white males only, or to restrict it by race, gender or wealth, but by a few simple factors:

    Has children. If you don't have children you do not have a vested interest in the future.
    Does not receive public benefits of ANY kind (or must at least be tax revenue positive).
    At least 25 years of age.
    Owns property within the legal bounds (house, lot or equivalent non-movable residence).

    If those simple requisites were to be enforced, vote buying by gifting money/welfare would end, and it would gate out a significant portion of the mindless idiots and all the bullshit that springs from them to the detriment of all.
    I don't mean that the vote should be restricted to rich white males, but here's my criteria doing exactly that
    Funny how that works.

  3. #6163

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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ego Proxy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    You know, primaries are an American thing. In other countries the parties select their leaders without running huge public elections. But then in other countries no one has to decide who they'll vote for outside of an actual election either. Nor are such decisions public.

    Tapapapatalk
    Not but you see
    Primaries as the Americans have them are almost unique. Those that exist in Europe are organized by the parties involved and not public administration.

    Tapapapatalk
    Yeah, maybe that distinction is important. The primaries, although a party mechanism, are completely run through the same voting apparatus as the presidential or any other vote.
    Although primaries in my locality, on a county level, are still organized by the parties involved; the public election office is only there to facilitate the process.
    This past election there was a school board position for the community college that was required to run through the primary due to the large number of candiates (11) compared to the number of available seats (3).
    And as an aside, the county I live in runs an outreach program where they will go to the local high schools to run their student council elections/etc through the same voting machines that are used for local/state/federal elections.
    Yeah, we get official state of CA/County ballots for ours, but you receive a ballot based on your party affiliation. Normally that is "Republican" and "Democrat/Independent/Unaffiliated". Like, they literally print different ballots.

    A lot of time, there are local and state ballot initiatives, dog catcher, etc running on the primary ballot as well, so more than just party business gets done on those.
    There are different ballots due to the party's rules on primaries.
    In my state both the Democratic and Republican parties close their primaries to anyone other than a registered voted affiliated with said party.
    It requires different ballots, because that is how the parties chose to run their primaries.
    The election commissioners, appointed by state secretaries, only run their offices to facilitate the process; the parties still get to decide the rules for their own primaries.

  4. #6164
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    Who you vote for should not be known to anyone but yourself.

    Otherwise you might as well vote openly in front of everyone else.

    Tapapapatalk
    nevar forget

  5. #6165
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neoo Gabriel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    *what the fuck.

    Tapapapatalk
    And not only that, but all registered voter information is also public - even if you are not registered as a member of any party.

    Although it varies by state, this information can be acquired by interested parties like marketers or people trying to manipulate the election through perception management:
    Name.
    Address.
    Party affiliation.

    Common items available are:
    Phone number.
    Voting history (this is how the purge will happen, WTF).
    Date of Birth.

    You can see a full table of what is available or not here:
    http://www.ncsl.org/research/electio...ion-lists.aspx

    It is kind of disgusting - but I would partially agree that having only the following information public does have an important public use (Name, party registration and elections voted in [but not the choice!]). This is so that there is accurate information on the correct number of voters to prevent voter fraud.

    Everything else is a legal invasion of privacy and is routinely used to manipulate perception. Note also that interested parties can easily (and do) correlate voter registration data with credit and other private personal information purchased from aggregators like Facebook (as long as it doesn't break the law - or they don't get caught doing it). This allows for increasingly accurate and up to date databases used to measure voter sentiment on myriad issues - this is then used to inform contestants on what to say/do to increase their support and get elected.

    Elections in the United States are in large part just a large marketing scheme because a significant portion of the electorate is easily manipulated. This is why our country is so dysfunctional.

    I personally believe our political system is no longer tenable due to the ultimate effects of Universal Suffrage. By this I don't mean that vote should be restricted to rich white males only, or to restrict it by race, gender or wealth, but by a few simple factors:

    Has children. If you don't have children you do not have a vested interest in the future.
    Does not receive public benefits of ANY kind (or must at least be tax revenue positive).
    At least 25 years of age.
    Owns property within the legal bounds (house, lot or equivalent non-movable residence).

    If those simple requisites were to be enforced, vote buying by gifting money/welfare would end, and it would gate out a significant portion of the mindless idiots and all the bullshit that springs from them to the detriment of all.
    You're a fucking moron
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
    I love Malcanis!

  6. #6166
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Who you vote for should not be known to anyone but yourself.

    Otherwise you might as well vote openly in front of everyone else.

    Tapapapatalk
    In my state, we have a secret ballot for the caucus and general election. Your political affiliation is public, partially to prevent shenanigans, like people voting for a joke candidate in the opposing party.
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    WTF I hate white people now...

  7. #6167
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    You also don't have to join a party. The affiliation is, as stated above, registered to provide you with the correct primary ballot. The actual vote itself is secret, you in a booth with a paper.
    meh

  8. #6168
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Who you vote for should not be known to anyone but yourself.

    Otherwise you might as well vote openly in front of everyone else.

    Tapapapatalk
    In my state, we have a secret ballot for the caucus and general election. Your political affiliation is public, partially to prevent shenanigans, like people voting for a joke candidate in the opposing party.
    How can you have a secret ballot for a caucus? The whole point of a caucus is open voting and persuasion.

    When we caucus we go to the polling place, usually a school, and go into a room or area of a gym with our precinct number. Everyone talks for a few minutes, then people vote by standing in groups based on candidate. Then another round of discussion, then a second vote, then the totals are written down and given to officials. Then delegates are assigned based on the proportion of votes at the precinct level, delegates are elected, and those delegates go on to the state convention, where state-level delegates to the national convention are elected in the same proportion.

  9. #6169
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Who you vote for should not be known to anyone but yourself.

    Otherwise you might as well vote openly in front of everyone else.

    Tapapapatalk
    In my state, we have a secret ballot for the caucus and general election. Your political affiliation is public, partially to prevent shenanigans, like people voting for a joke candidate in the opposing party.
    How can you have a secret ballot for a caucus? The whole point of a caucus is open voting and persuasion.

    When we caucus we go to the polling place, usually a school, and go into a room or area of a gym with our precinct number. Everyone talks for a few minutes, then people vote by standing in groups based on candidate. Then another round of discussion, then a second vote, then the totals are written down and given to officials. Then delegates are assigned based on the proportion of votes at the precinct level, delegates are elected, and those delegates go on to the state convention, where state-level delegates to the national convention are elected in the same proportion.
    But that's a party thing. I mean, if they wanted to have you all gather around a goat and do the secret hokey pokey first, that's up to them. Once if comes voting day, as probably correctly stated above, at least here, we all vote on a ballot. More gets decided than just the primary, again, at least here, usually.
    meh

  10. #6170
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Right because California uses a secret-ballot primary to assign the per-candidate proportions of delegates to the national convention, then an intra-Party process to elect/select those delegates.

    States that use caucuses merge these functions, and delegate status is open to the general public rather than just party members/insiders.

    We also hold a secret ballot primary, but it does not have any impact on the assignment of delegates, in terms of proportion or number of delegates assigned to a candidate or the selection of delegate slates. This is because the GOP doesn’t caucus in Washington anymore, if they ever did. So when the Secretary of State runs the primary ballots, they include Democratic candidates.

    It’s entirely possible to participate in the Dem caucus and then vote in the GOP primary.

  11. #6171
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Who you vote for should not be known to anyone but yourself.

    Otherwise you might as well vote openly in front of everyone else.

    Tapapapatalk
    In my state, we have a secret ballot for the caucus and general election. Your political affiliation is public, partially to prevent shenanigans, like people voting for a joke candidate in the opposing party.
    How can you have a secret ballot for a caucus? The whole point of a caucus is open voting and persuasion.

    When we caucus we go to the polling place, usually a school, and go into a room or area of a gym with our precinct number. Everyone talks for a few minutes, then people vote by standing in groups based on candidate. Then another round of discussion, then a second vote, then the totals are written down and given to officials. Then delegates are assigned based on the proportion of votes at the precinct level, delegates are elected, and those delegates go on to the state convention, where state-level delegates to the national convention are elected in the same proportion.
    Can only speak for how Democrats do things, don't know how Republicans do it. Standing in groups is seen as intimidating, even coercive. We use anonymous paper slips for candidates. Issues and policy positions are done by hand-raising or voice vote.
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    WTF I hate white people now...

  12. #6172
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    I know that the ballot itself is secret. But having party membership lists public is just insane.

    If you can't see why, then you lack not just imagination but also any knowledge of 20th century history.

    Tapapapatalk
    nevar forget

  13. #6173
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    It’s pretty widespread, though depends on what your definition of “public” is.

    And it’s nothing compared to the data parties keep themselves.

  14. #6174
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    It’s pretty widespread, though depends on what your definition of “public” is.

    And it’s nothing compared to the data parties keep themselves.
    What the parties keep for themselves is absolutely fine. They need to have a membership list. But having that data available to anyone as some states do, is frankly insane.

    https://voterrecords.com/voters/ak/1

    Why is this shit public?

    Have another example:
    Every Florida Republican born between 1981 and 1990. You even get their race listed.
    https://voterrecords.com/voters/fl/r...n-1981to1990/1
    nevar forget

  15. #6175
    Neoo Gabriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    I know that the ballot itself is secret. But having party membership lists public is just insane.

    If you can't see why, then you lack not just imagination but also any knowledge of 20th century history.

    Tapapapatalk
    If the U.S. had more than two parties, it might make sense to be registered as such, so that you could participate in the primaries, and people who did not belong to them could not hijack their decision making*. Instead, being unregistered (independent) has benefits and drawbacks:

    You are not on a list as being part of a group.
    Your vote is not taken for granted by anyone.

    *In some states, you may not participate in the primary election if you are not registered to it, but in others, you can.

    But you are right that it is insane - as people may assume that if you are registered A or B - in this modern rhetoric and violence inflamed time, decide to punish you for it. People have/haven't gotten promotions/hired because of public party lists, as well as getting threatened.

  16. #6176
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    Even with more than two parties, membership lists should never be public.
    You can still be member of a party and take part in their leadership election process. Other countries manage that as well.
    nevar forget

  17. #6177
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    All Joe's points are completely beyond contention in all other nations. Even China doesn't have a published list of members of the communist party even though it is the only party and has hundreds of millions of members

    Americans are the weird ones here.


    Poland treats me like shit and I hate them as a result of it

  18. #6178

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    Yeah, murican politics is beyond all reason and understanding and to lesser degree the brexitland politics where muricans just took the worst bits and added industrialized bribery on top of that.

  19. #6179

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    Quote Originally Posted by depili View Post
    Yeah, murican politics is beyond all reason and understanding and to lesser degree the brexitland politics where muricans just took the worst bits and added industrialized bribery on top of that.
    This is not a coherent sentence ...

  20. #6180
    Donor Shiodome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by depili View Post
    Yeah, murican politics is beyond all reason and understanding and to lesser degree the brexitland politics where muricans just took the worst bits and added industrialized bribery on top of that.
    This is not a coherent sentence ...
    he isn't describing a coherent situation.

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