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Thread: US Politics Thread, 2.0

  1. #7141
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    The message that 20th century liberalism is not a winning formula in the 21st century.

  2. #7142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    The message that 20th century liberalism is not a winning formula in the 21st century.
    And the winning formula in the U.S. in the 21st Century is?


  3. #7143
    Movember '11 Best Facial Hair, Best 'Tache Movember 2011Movember 2012Donor helgur's Avatar
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    There is a reason Trump got elected. He is the symptom, not the cause. The US as a society is sick. Sending in another moderate right wing liberal (if he wins) is only going to postpone dealing with the real issues. More worryingly, after the next liberal democrat's term is up I dread to imagine what the republicans are going to put up as their frontrunner in that election.

    At this point I just want the shitshow with Trump to end, but I have no illusions that he is the worst America has to offer. It can get a lot worse, even though by now it is pretty abysmal. I fear without some systematic changes to the way politics work, addressing the divisiveness among the voters, and the inequalities in the society, the US is going to make it worse for itself by not getting somebody with a progressive agenda in charge for the next 8 years that deals with some fundamental core issues facing US society.

  4. #7144
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    There is a reason Trump got elected. He is the symptom, not the cause. The US as a society is sick. Sending in another moderate right wing liberal (if he wins) is only going to postpone dealing with the real issues. More worryingly, after the next liberal democrat's term is up I dread to imagine what the republicans are going to put up as their frontrunner in that election.

    At this point I just want the shitshow with Trump to end, but I have no illusions that he is the worst America has to offer. It can get a lot worse, even though by now it is pretty abysmal. I fear without some systematic changes to the way politics work, addressing the divisiveness among the voters, and the inequalities in the society, the US is going to make it worse for itself by not getting somebody with a progressive agenda in charge for the next 8 years that deals with some fundamental core issues facing US society.
    What do you mean? Everything was fine before Trump got elected! Right Barth? Right Al?

  5. #7145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    The message that 20th century liberalism is not a winning formula in the 21st century.
    And the winning formula in the U.S. in the 21st Century is?
    Successful democrats have typically run on a platform of change.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  6. #7146

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by depili View Post
    Also by Finnish political standards your commie-Bernie would be fit to lead our right-leaning conservative party no problem...
    Can you educate me?

    What is the difference (in policy) between a Finnish Right-Wing Healthcare System (i.e. Bernie's Plan, per above) and a proper Left-Wing Finnish or European Healthcare System?

    Not asking for deep technical details, just the broad strokes.
    I would imagine (I'm not Finnish hurr hurr) is that there is a VAST difference between government being the primary health insurer and government being the actual healthcare system (doctor, nurses, etc are state/fed employees).

  7. #7147
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Everything was fine before Trump got elected! Right Al?
    Nope.


  8. #7148
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    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    There is a reason Trump got elected. He is the symptom, not the cause. The US as a society is sick. Sending in another moderate right wing liberal (if he wins) is only going to postpone dealing with the real issues. More worryingly, after the next liberal democrat's term is up I dread to imagine what the republicans are going to put up as their frontrunner in that election.

    At this point I just want the shitshow with Trump to end, but I have no illusions that he is the worst America has to offer. It can get a lot worse, even though by now it is pretty abysmal. I fear without some systematic changes to the way politics work, addressing the divisiveness among the voters, and the inequalities in the society, the US is going to make it worse for itself by not getting somebody with a progressive agenda in charge for the next 8 years that deals with some fundamental core issues facing US society.
    A good part of the Dem field could make things worse if they cut spending or tried to introduce bad healthcare laws.

  9. #7149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    The message that 20th century liberalism is not a winning formula in the 21st century.
    And the winning formula in the U.S. in the 21st Century is?
    Successful democrats have typically run on a platform of change.
    Hence Conservative vs. Progressive. I understand.

    Let me rephrase my question then: A platform of change to ______________ is the winning formula in the U.S. in the 21st Century?

    I leave the blank for you to fill in.


  10. #7150
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonesbones View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by depili View Post
    Also by Finnish political standards your commie-Bernie would be fit to lead our right-leaning conservative party no problem...
    Can you educate me?

    What is the difference (in policy) between a Finnish Right-Wing Healthcare System (i.e. Bernie's Plan, per above) and a proper Left-Wing Finnish or European Healthcare System?

    Not asking for deep technical details, just the broad strokes.
    I would imagine (I'm not Finnish hurr hurr) is that there is a VAST difference between government being the primary health insurer and government being the actual healthcare system (doctor, nurses, etc are state/fed employees).
    Yes, I would agree that is a meaningful difference. Thank you.


  11. #7151
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    "decline narratives"

    jfc

  12. #7152
    Movember '11 Best Facial Hair, Best 'Tache Movember 2011Movember 2012Donor helgur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    There is a reason Trump got elected. He is the symptom, not the cause. The US as a society is sick. Sending in another moderate right wing liberal (if he wins) is only going to postpone dealing with the real issues. More worryingly, after the next liberal democrat's term is up I dread to imagine what the republicans are going to put up as their frontrunner in that election.

    At this point I just want the shitshow with Trump to end, but I have no illusions that he is the worst America has to offer. It can get a lot worse, even though by now it is pretty abysmal. I fear without some systematic changes to the way politics work, addressing the divisiveness among the voters, and the inequalities in the society, the US is going to make it worse for itself by not getting somebody with a progressive agenda in charge for the next 8 years that deals with some fundamental core issues facing US society.
    A good part of the Dem field could make things worse if they cut spending or tried to introduce bad healthcare laws.
    I think universal healthcare coverage is a good start.

  13. #7153
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    There is a reason Trump got elected. He is the symptom, not the cause. The US as a society is sick. Sending in another moderate right wing liberal (if he wins) is only going to postpone dealing with the real issues. More worryingly, after the next liberal democrat's term is up I dread to imagine what the republicans are going to put up as their frontrunner in that election.

    At this point I just want the shitshow with Trump to end, but I have no illusions that he is the worst America has to offer. It can get a lot worse, even though by now it is pretty abysmal. I fear without some systematic changes to the way politics work, addressing the divisiveness among the voters, and the inequalities in the society, the US is going to make it worse for itself by not getting somebody with a progressive agenda in charge for the next 8 years that deals with some fundamental core issues facing US society.
    A good part of the Dem field could make things worse if they cut spending or tried to introduce bad healthcare laws.
    I think universal healthcare coverage is a good start.
    I agree.

    I have trouble seeing a policy decision made by even a moderate Democrat that would be worse than that put in place by Donald Trump.


  14. #7154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    There is a reason Trump got elected. He is the symptom, not the cause. The US as a society is sick. Sending in another moderate right wing liberal (if he wins) is only going to postpone dealing with the real issues. More worryingly, after the next liberal democrat's term is up I dread to imagine what the republicans are going to put up as their frontrunner in that election.

    At this point I just want the shitshow with Trump to end, but I have no illusions that he is the worst America has to offer. It can get a lot worse, even though by now it is pretty abysmal. I fear without some systematic changes to the way politics work, addressing the divisiveness among the voters, and the inequalities in the society, the US is going to make it worse for itself by not getting somebody with a progressive agenda in charge for the next 8 years that deals with some fundamental core issues facing US society.
    A good part of the Dem field could make things worse if they cut spending or tried to introduce bad healthcare laws.
    I think universal healthcare coverage is a good start.
    I agree.

    I have trouble seeing a policy decision made by even a moderate Democrat that would be worse than that put in place by Donald Trump.
    If you did not enroll in private insurance, the Buttigieg health plan will retroactively enroll you in the last-resort public insurance option, and then require you to pay back an amount equivalent to the insurance premium in tax penalties.

    This is a roundabout way of reintroducing the individual mandate that everyone hated, but with much steeper penalties. The uninsured are not a demographic that has two thousand dollars lying around to afford a plan or the equivalent in back taxes.

  15. #7155
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    There is a reason Trump got elected. He is the symptom, not the cause. The US as a society is sick. Sending in another moderate right wing liberal (if he wins) is only going to postpone dealing with the real issues. More worryingly, after the next liberal democrat's term is up I dread to imagine what the republicans are going to put up as their frontrunner in that election.

    At this point I just want the shitshow with Trump to end, but I have no illusions that he is the worst America has to offer. It can get a lot worse, even though by now it is pretty abysmal. I fear without some systematic changes to the way politics work, addressing the divisiveness among the voters, and the inequalities in the society, the US is going to make it worse for itself by not getting somebody with a progressive agenda in charge for the next 8 years that deals with some fundamental core issues facing US society.
    A good part of the Dem field could make things worse if they cut spending or tried to introduce bad healthcare laws.
    I think universal healthcare coverage is a good start.
    I agree.

    I have trouble seeing a policy decision made by even a moderate Democrat that would be worse than that put in place by Donald Trump.
    If you did not enroll in private insurance, the Buttigieg health plan will retroactively enroll you in the last-resort public insurance option, and then require you to pay back an amount equivalent to the insurance premium in tax penalties.

    This is a roundabout way of reintroducing the individual mandate that everyone hated, but with much steeper penalties. The uninsured are not a demographic that has two thousand dollars lying around to afford a plan or the equivalent in back taxes.
    Yes, he is quite clearly a "Universal Healthcare via ACA-Style System with a Public Option".

    I'm took a (admittedly quick) look at his proposals https://peteforamerica.com/policies/health-care/ and https://storage.googleapis.com/pfa-w...aper_FINAL.pdf and it seems that I may be missing the "must pay two thousand in retroactive back tax penalties".

    I did see an article by the Federalist (a conservative outlet) making a similar claim as yours (sans the retroactive part) https://thefederalist.com/2019/12/27...imes-the-cost/ with a refernce to a Washington post article.

    Do you have a link to that information?
    Last edited by Alistair; February 13 2020 at 08:47:19 PM.


  16. #7156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    There is a reason Trump got elected. He is the symptom, not the cause. The US as a society is sick. Sending in another moderate right wing liberal (if he wins) is only going to postpone dealing with the real issues. More worryingly, after the next liberal democrat's term is up I dread to imagine what the republicans are going to put up as their frontrunner in that election.

    At this point I just want the shitshow with Trump to end, but I have no illusions that he is the worst America has to offer. It can get a lot worse, even though by now it is pretty abysmal. I fear without some systematic changes to the way politics work, addressing the divisiveness among the voters, and the inequalities in the society, the US is going to make it worse for itself by not getting somebody with a progressive agenda in charge for the next 8 years that deals with some fundamental core issues facing US society.
    A good part of the Dem field could make things worse if they cut spending or tried to introduce bad healthcare laws.
    I think universal healthcare coverage is a good start.
    I agree.

    I have trouble seeing a policy decision made by even a moderate Democrat that would be worse than that put in place by Donald Trump.
    If you did not enroll in private insurance, the Buttigieg health plan will retroactively enroll you in the last-resort public insurance option, and then require you to pay back an amount equivalent to the insurance premium in tax penalties.

    This is a roundabout way of reintroducing the individual mandate that everyone hated, but with much steeper penalties. The uninsured are not a demographic that has two thousand dollars lying around to afford a plan or the equivalent in back taxes.
    Yes, he is quite clearly a "Universal Healthcare via ACA-Style System with a Public Option".

    I'm took a (admittedly quick) look at his proposals https://peteforamerica.com/policies/health-care/ and https://storage.googleapis.com/pfa-w...aper_FINAL.pdf and it seems that I may be missing the "must pay two thousand in retroactive back tax penalties".

    I did see an article by the Federalist (a conservative outlet) making a similar claim as yours (sans the retroactive part) https://thefederalist.com/2019/12/27...imes-the-cost/ with a refernce to a Washington post article.

    Do you have a link to that information?
    It's the Washington Post article, which is paywalled. I don't have any freebies left, so here's Slate:

    https://slate.com/business/2020/01/p...nrollment.html

    Except, as the Washington Post recently pointed out, you might be. In order to achieve universal coverage, Buttigieg’s proposal relies on a slightly roundabout mechanism called “retroactive enrollment,” which would essentially require Americans to buy into the public option if they fail to purchase any other health plan. It would work in two steps. First, the government would set up a so-called backstop fund to cover the uninsured by paying doctors, hospitals, and other providers for their care. Then, at tax time, people who never got around to obtaining their own coverage would be required to “retroactively” sign up for the public option—meaning that they would have to pay all of the back premiums they would have owed over the previous year, even if they didn’t seek any medical treatment during that time. Going uninsured to save money would no longer be a choice.

  17. #7157
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    Forgive me, but isn't lamenting that "Going uninsured to save money would no longer be a choice." a right-wing talking point against the ACA?

    It was certainly one of the more common complaints I heard back in the day on right-wing radio when they were crying about Obama and the ACA.

    Given that the Public Option (medicare) would be available to choose, why would the low income folks not sign up for that, effectively eliminating this risk for them? It sounds like they would be meaningfully subsidized if they do so.

    And back to my original point, is the current system and a 2nd term of Trump better than this Mayer Pete option?


  18. #7158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Forgive me, but isn't lamenting that "Going uninsured to save money would no longer be a choice." a right-wing talking point against the ACA?

    It was certainly one of the more common complaints I heard back in the day on right-wing radio when they were crying about Obama and the ACA.

    Given that the Public Option (medicare) would be available to choose, why would the low income folks not sign up for that, effectively eliminating this risk for them? It sounds like they would be meaningfully subsidized if they do so.

    And back to my original point, is the current system and a 2nd term of Trump better than this Mayer Pete option?
    I'd certainly vote for Buttigieg in the general, if he gets the nomination. A 2nd term for Trump could be an extinction level event.
    "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Zhuge Liang


  19. #7159
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    "decline narratives"

    jfc
    it's an amazing post illustrating bart nearly perfectly, the self-righteous pseudo intellectualism, "There is no alternative" and "the left is wrong by default!" truly encompass beautifully what is wrong with mainstream liberal thinking today, or well... lack of thinking anyway.

    the implied "actually, class analysis is a conspiracy theory" is, without a doubt the capstone of the whole thing, openly pretending that 180'ish years of history simply didn't happen and the managed decline that has defined the west since the death of the soviet union doesn't exist, despite statistical evidence to the contrary.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  20. #7160
    mewninn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Forgive me, but isn't lamenting that "Going uninsured to save money would no longer be a choice." a right-wing talking point against the ACA?

    It was certainly one of the more common complaints I heard back in the day on right-wing radio when they were crying about Obama and the ACA.
    Yes it is, but the ACA and the individual mandate was a right-wing plan originally. It doesn't get to masquerade as a progressive policy just because the right now criticizes it.

    Given that the Public Option (medicare) would be available to choose, why would the low income folks not sign up for that, effectively eliminating this risk for them? It sounds like they would be meaningfully subsidized if they do so.

    And back to my original point, is the current system and a 2nd term of Trump better than this Mayer Pete option?
    Because they don't have the money? They just don't have money the same way you or I do. The ACA was also subsidized, but in the case of a worker with ~30k in income, you can still expect to shell out a thousand or more for a plan.

    The $1,200 subsidized plan does you no good if you only have $600 in your account and your credit is terrible.
    Last edited by mewninn; February 13 2020 at 10:16:05 PM.

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