US Politics Thread, 2.0

[Hel OWeen]

And all these rulings happen while the January 6th hearing intensives ... coincidence? :tinfoil hat:

I don't get the tin foil hat aspect here, you'll have to spell it out for me, I'm slow.

I haven't followed the testimonies too closely, so I might be mistaken there and please correct me if I'm wrong. But there was this women (yesterday?) whose testimony was quite damning for Trump, like he knew the protesters were armed and he asked Congress staff to let them pass. Yelling at his Secret Service agents, even grabbing the steering wheel and trying to force them to drive to the Congress. All pointing at a real attempted coup = high treason?

That should absolutely be the talking point in media. But then "at the right time" all these rulings come out, distracting attention away from the hearing and testimonies. Don't get me wrong: these rulings absolutely deserve all attention they can get. But at the same time they bury the evidence of Trump's attempted coup - and it more looks like it was an attempted coup, planned and orchestrated by him and his ilk, rather than his followers "just" running wild.

[Alistair]

And all these rulings happen while the January 6th hearing intensives ... coincidence? :tinfoil hat:

I don't get the tin foil hat aspect here, you'll have to spell it out for me, I'm slow.

I haven't followed the testimonies too closely, so I might be mistaken there and please correct me if I'm wrong. But there was this women (yesterday?) whose testimony was quite damning for Trump, like he knew the protesters were armed and he asked Congress staff to let them pass. Yelling at his Secret Service agents, even grabbing the steering wheel and trying to force them to drive to the Congress. All pointing at a real attempted coup = high treason?

That should absolutely be the talking point in media. But then "at the right time" all these rulings come out, distracting attention away from the hearing and testimonies. Don't get me wrong: these rulings absolutely deserve all attention they can get. But at the same time they bury the evidence of Trump's attempted coup - and it more looks like it was an attempted coup, planned and orchestrated by him and his ilk, rather than his followers "just" running wild.

It's a nice idea that it was "damning", and it certainly is in the mind of politically active Democrats and Progressives who believe it's veracity, but no, it won't be:

1. It's almost all heresay.

2. The principals she claims say A, B or C have pretty much all denied it publicly, as will (reportedly) the Secret Service Agents involved.

3. The timing of SCOTUS Decisions is generally around now. And they generally save all the big-hits for the last minutes of their session. So no, I don't think SCOTUS is doing a Wag the Dog distraction given the "SCOTUS Norms" of the way they release rulings.

4. The vast bulk of the American population wasn't paying any attention to the Committee anyway. Ask the average American voter, and they barely know it's happening, and if they do, most think it's partisan same-as-usual, especially after two (failed) impeachments.

Hate to be a cynic here, but I sadly don't think the hearings will have any actual effect, certainly not on Trump himself or his 2024 ambitions. He'll couch this as he did the impeachments, i.e. the Swamp trying to stop him because he's just so damn effective, and he'll point to the SCOTUS rulings and pre-Biden economy as proof, lying his ass off all the way.

[El Capitano]

Almost none of this Supreme Court stuff is actually truly Trump's doing. Most of it was the Republicans controlling the senate at the right time and RBG refusing to retire when the dems controlled it. This has been the Republican game plan from long before Trump. Imagine people defending them back then...

[Nordstern]

Imagine if McConnell had been arrested for treason when he refused to carry out his constitutional duty to consider Scalia's replacement.

[Hel OWeen]

And all these rulings happen while the January 6th hearing intensives ... coincidence? :tinfoil hat:

I don't get the tin foil hat aspect here, you'll have to spell it out for me, I'm slow.

I haven't followed the testimonies too closely, so I might be mistaken there and please correct me if I'm wrong. But there was this women (yesterday?) whose testimony was quite damning for Trump, like he knew the protesters were armed and he asked Congress staff to let them pass. Yelling at his Secret Service agents, even grabbing the steering wheel and trying to force them to drive to the Congress. All pointing at a real attempted coup = high treason?

That should absolutely be the talking point in media. But then "at the right time" all these rulings come out, distracting attention away from the hearing and testimonies. Don't get me wrong: these rulings absolutely deserve all attention they can get. But at the same time they bury the evidence of Trump's attempted coup - and it more looks like it was an attempted coup, planned and orchestrated by him and his ilk, rather than his followers "just" running wild.

3. The timing of SCOTUS Decisions is generally around now. And they generally save all the big-hits for the last minutes of their session. So no, I don't think SCOTUS is doing a Wag the Dog distraction given the "SCOTUS Norms" of the way they release rulings.

That sounds strange to me, as our BVerG rules when it has come to a conclusion, not when "the time is around".

[Lallante]

And all these rulings happen while the January 6th hearing intensives ... coincidence? :tinfoil hat:

The Court always issues the plurality of its rulings in June before its recess in July, happens every year.

[Varcaus]

And all these rulings happen while the January 6th hearing intensives ... coincidence? :tinfoil hat:

Would be a real shame if judge happened to be married to an insurrectionist. Maybe one who was silent for decades till recently?

[Nordstern]

There is no point celebrating the 4th of July when this happens:



- Proud Boys attempt to crash a drag show
- Proud Boys yell they will kill people right in front of the cops
- Proud Boys get pepper sprayed and retreat
- Police do nothing, but call for backup

[rufuske]

There is no point celebrating the 4th of July when this happens:



- Proud Boys attempt to crash a drag show
- Proud Boys yell they will kill people right in front of the cops
- Proud Boys get pepper sprayed and retreat
- Police do nothing, but call for backup

What do you expect to happen? Police to gun them with fifty cals? It has been established numerous times that US police has no training how to deal with that kind of situations. Pepper spray and all of the non lethal force applicators they have on them might be a good start, but it requires training and sensibility with what kind of force is appropriate. In that particular situation I can see no wrong being done, proper restraint working.

Hypothetically how would it go if perps were black? That's the crux of a problem

[Dorvil Barranis]

There is no point celebrating the 4th of July when this happens:


- Proud Boys attempt to crash a drag show
- Proud Boys yell they will kill people right in front of the cops
- Proud Boys get pepper sprayed and retreat
- Police do nothing, but call for backup

What do you expect to happen? Police to gun them with fifty cals? It has been established numerous times that US police has no training how to deal with that kind of situations. Pepper spray and all of the non lethal force applicators they have on them might be a good start, but it requires training and sensibility with what kind of force is appropriate. In that particular situation I can see no wrong being done, proper restraint working.

Hypothetically how would it go if perps were black? That's the crux of a problem

I imagine a disturbing the peace arrest and charge would be appropriate, maybe something for death threats.

[Caldrion Dosto]

There is no point celebrating the 4th of July when this happens:


- Proud Boys attempt to crash a drag show
- Proud Boys yell they will kill people right in front of the cops
- Proud Boys get pepper sprayed and retreat
- Police do nothing, but call for backup

What do you expect to happen? Police to gun them with fifty cals? It has been established numerous times that US police has no training how to deal with that kind of situations. Pepper spray and all of the non lethal force applicators they have on them might be a good start, but it requires training and sensibility with what kind of force is appropriate. In that particular situation I can see no wrong being done, proper restraint working.

Hypothetically how would it go if perps were black? That's the crux of a problem

I imagine a disturbing the peace arrest and charge would be appropriate, maybe something for death threats.

We have been over this so many times, there is an easy solution that can be imported from every other country in the Western World = "If someone is carrying a firearm in public (not hunter, soldier, police) shoot to kill on sight. No warning shoots needed."
Even the soft scandis have this approach, and lo and behold the death from firearms in Europe is enormously better then USA.

[depili]

There is no point celebrating the 4th of July when this happens:


- Proud Boys attempt to crash a drag show
- Proud Boys yell they will kill people right in front of the cops
- Proud Boys get pepper sprayed and retreat
- Police do nothing, but call for backup

What do you expect to happen? Police to gun them with fifty cals? It has been established numerous times that US police has no training how to deal with that kind of situations. Pepper spray and all of the non lethal force applicators they have on them might be a good start, but it requires training and sensibility with what kind of force is appropriate. In that particular situation I can see no wrong being done, proper restraint working.

Hypothetically how would it go if perps were black? That's the crux of a problem

I imagine a disturbing the peace arrest and charge would be appropriate, maybe something for death threats.

We have been over this so many times, there is an easy solution that can be imported from every other country in the Western World = "If someone is carrying a firearm in public (not hunter, soldier, police) shoot to kill on sight. No warning shoots needed."
Even the soft scandis have this approach, and lo and behold the death from firearms in Europe is enormously better then USA.

No we don't have that approach. Our police never shoots to kill, the priority is always to disable. And no, carrying a firearm in public doesn't mean the police will shoot you on sight.

[teds :D]

There is no point celebrating the 4th of July when this happens:


- Proud Boys attempt to crash a drag show
- Proud Boys yell they will kill people right in front of the cops
- Proud Boys get pepper sprayed and retreat
- Police do nothing, but call for backup

What do you expect to happen? Police to gun them with fifty cals? It has been established numerous times that US police has no training how to deal with that kind of situations. Pepper spray and all of the non lethal force applicators they have on them might be a good start, but it requires training and sensibility with what kind of force is appropriate. In that particular situation I can see no wrong being done, proper restraint working.

Hypothetically how would it go if perps were black? That's the crux of a problem

I imagine a disturbing the peace arrest and charge would be appropriate, maybe something for death threats.

We have been over this so many times, there is an easy solution that can be imported from every other country in the Western World = "If someone is carrying a firearm in public (not hunter, soldier, police) shoot to kill on sight. No warning shoots needed."
Even the soft scandis have this approach, and lo and behold the death from firearms in Europe is enormously better then USA.

errr, this is not the approach of any police force in europe afaik. typically deescalation and containment, less than lethal (taser, baton rounds) as first option and lethal option if there is an imminent risk to life (person pointing a firearm at the public for example).

[Joe Appleby]

It's not like there aren't any EU programs and systems in place to provide police training to other countries.

https://www.eeas.europa.eu/eeas/miss...-operations_en

https://police.un.org/en/un-police-t...ture-programme

https://www.bmi.bund.de/EN/topics/se...ions-node.html

[Lallante]

What do you expect to happen? Police to gun them with fifty cals? It has been established numerous times that US police has no training how to deal with that kind of situations. Pepper spray and all of the non lethal force applicators they have on them might be a good start, but it requires training and sensibility with what kind of force is appropriate. In that particular situation I can see no wrong being done, proper restraint working.

Hypothetically how would it go if perps were black? That's the crux of a problem

Look we dont really want the police to treat the proud boys like they treat black people (well not the sane ones of us), but its still pretty stark that none of them made ANY MOVE WHATSOEVER to prevent this attack and they properly backed off making no attempt to cuff the guys who just went in swinging.

[Varcaus]

What do you expect to happen? Police to gun them with fifty cals? It has been established numerous times that US police has no training how to deal with that kind of situations. Pepper spray and all of the non lethal force applicators they have on them might be a good start, but it requires training and sensibility with what kind of force is appropriate. In that particular situation I can see no wrong being done, proper restraint working.

Hypothetically how would it go if perps were black? That's the crux of a problem

Look we dont really want the police to treat the proud boys like they treat black people (well not the sane ones of us), but its still pretty stark that none of them made ANY MOVE WHATSOEVER to prevent this attack and they properly backed off making no attempt to cuff the guys who just went in swinging.

No I'd be perfectly happy with them gunning down white supremacists actually.

[Nordstern]

[Jack Coutu]

What do you expect to happen? Police to gun them with fifty cals? It has been established numerous times that US police has no training how to deal with that kind of situations. Pepper spray and all of the non lethal force applicators they have on them might be a good start, but it requires training and sensibility with what kind of force is appropriate. In that particular situation I can see no wrong being done, proper restraint working.

Hypothetically how would it go if perps were black? That's the crux of a problem

Look we dont really want the police to treat the proud boys like they treat black people (well not the sane ones of us), but its still pretty stark that none of them made ANY MOVE WHATSOEVER to prevent this attack and they properly backed off making no attempt to cuff the guys who just went in swinging.

No I'd be perfectly happy with them gunning down white supremacists actually.

They'd be turning the gun on themselves half the time then.

[Lallante]

What do you expect to happen? Police to gun them with fifty cals? It has been established numerous times that US police has no training how to deal with that kind of situations. Pepper spray and all of the non lethal force applicators they have on them might be a good start, but it requires training and sensibility with what kind of force is appropriate. In that particular situation I can see no wrong being done, proper restraint working.

Hypothetically how would it go if perps were black? That's the crux of a problem

Look we dont really want the police to treat the proud boys like they treat black people (well not the sane ones of us), but its still pretty stark that none of them made ANY MOVE WHATSOEVER to prevent this attack and they properly backed off making no attempt to cuff the guys who just went in swinging.

No I'd be perfectly happy with them gunning down white supremacists actually.

Edgy as fuck mate. Racism should clearly carry an arbitrary death penalty without trial.

[Nordstern]

What do you expect to happen? Police to gun them with fifty cals? It has been established numerous times that US police has no training how to deal with that kind of situations. Pepper spray and all of the non lethal force applicators they have on them might be a good start, but it requires training and sensibility with what kind of force is appropriate. In that particular situation I can see no wrong being done, proper restraint working.

Hypothetically how would it go if perps were black? That's the crux of a problem

Look we dont really want the police to treat the proud boys like they treat black people (well not the sane ones of us), but its still pretty stark that none of them made ANY MOVE WHATSOEVER to prevent this attack and they properly backed off making no attempt to cuff the guys who just went in swinging.

No I'd be perfectly happy with them gunning down white supremacists actually.

Edgy as fuck mate. Racism should clearly carry an arbitrary death penalty without trial.

Now who's being edgy?