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Thread: US Politics Thread, 2.0

  1. #3081
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Well this is a tragedy.

    https://mondediplo.com/2019/08/01edito



    Apparently the liberals of San Francisco have decided that a mural painted by an expat Soviet during the New Deal, that explicitly criticizes the founding myth of the United States and calls attention to the hypocrisy and racism in that myth, is too racist and so needs to be painted over.


    I took these scenes with a pinch of salt...


  2. #3082
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totally Not Larkonnis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Well this is a tragedy.

    https://mondediplo.com/2019/08/01edito



    Apparently the liberals of San Francisco have decided that a mural painted by an expat Soviet during the New Deal, that explicitly criticizes the founding myth of the United States and calls attention to the hypocrisy and racism in that myth, is too racist and so needs to be painted over.


    I took these scenes with a pinch of salt...
    those look like the murals on the city hall of Pawnee in Parks and Rec, except unironic and not funny

    beat to it by lark!
    Last edited by Approaching Walrus; August 3 2019 at 06:47:30 PM.

  3. #3083
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    I’m not unsympathetic to the argument, I just think the answer is to teach the lesson in the mural—a lesson that is in the kids’ history books—rather than paint it over.

    It just seems sort of facepalmy. I get the “let’s take down the monuments to confederate generals” angle, those memorials are actually glorifying racism. This doesn’t glorify anything, it calls attention to the problem.

    If it’s just too graphic, that’s one thing, but then at least frame the issue that way rather than saying the message in the art is the problem.
    I totally get you, and think book burning is basically dumb in any form, but there is another side to this.

    Personally, if it's so valuable, then move it to a museum.

    This article follows my understanding of the issue, based on local news and postings.

    https://news.artnet.com/opinion/mura...-reply-1599019

    The preponderance of email we’ve received at this time, indeed, speaks to the desire to keep the mural as is. However, for decades thousands of students as well as adult members of the African American and Native American communities have implored the school district to remove the mural because it causes real deleterious harm to them.

    Who to listen to, then, especially when those in favor of keeping the mural are predominantly of European descent, and those protesting the mural are overwhelmingly people of color?
    meh

  4. #3084
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    It looks to me that if your stated policy is anything less than outright calls for white genocide, you will be called racist. And if you do call for white genocide than you must obviously be an alt-right agent provocateur.

  5. #3085
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    lolwhite genocide
    meh

  6. #3086
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dzajic View Post
    It looks to me that if your stated policy is anything less than outright calls for white genocide, you will be called racist. And if you do call for white genocide than you must obviously be an alt-right agent provocateur.
    If you want us to think that you're a blithering idiot, just ask. No need for this coy tippy-toes act.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
    I love Malcanis!

  7. #3087
    Donor Spaztick's Avatar
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    Emotionally I'm saying keep the mural, but lol "deleterious harm," if the art both goes over their heads and hurts their feelings it's not serving it's original purpose any more. In that sense I think you could argue this is temporary and in a few years perspective will shift and people will want to keep it.

  8. #3088
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaztick View Post
    Emotionally I'm saying keep the mural, but lol "deleterious harm," if the art both goes over their heads and hurts their feelings it's not serving it's original purpose any more. In that sense I think you could argue this is temporary and in a few years perspective will shift and people will want to keep it.
    This isn't a new issue. Apparently a big black panther thing in the early 70's as well.
    meh

  9. #3089
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dzajic View Post
    It looks to me that if your stated policy is anything less than outright calls for white genocide, you will be called racist. And if you do call for white genocide than you must obviously be an alt-right agent provocateur.
    If you want us to think that you're a blithering idiot, just ask. No need for this coy tippy-toes act.
    Please now, explain how a mural condeming racism and false myths of American nation rising... can be considered racist? What should have the artist done, how could have the idea been portrayed for it to not be seen as racist by modern "liberals"???

    Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

  10. #3090
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dzajic View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dzajic View Post
    It looks to me that if your stated policy is anything less than outright calls for white genocide, you will be called racist. And if you do call for white genocide than you must obviously be an alt-right agent provocateur.
    If you want us to think that you're a blithering idiot, just ask. No need for this coy tippy-toes act.
    Please now, explain how a mural condeming racism and false myths of American nation rising... can be considered racist? What should have the artist done, how could have the idea been portrayed for it to not be seen as racist by modern "liberals"???

    Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
    But they weren't liberals; no white genocide was mentioned in the article, so it was just nazis speaking to nazis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
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  11. #3091
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    but liberals are nazis!!

  12. #3092
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    I’m not unsympathetic to the argument, I just think the answer is to teach the lesson in the mural—a lesson that is in the kids’ history books—rather than paint it over.

    It just seems sort of facepalmy. I get the “let’s take down the monuments to confederate generals” angle, those memorials are actually glorifying racism. This doesn’t glorify anything, it calls attention to the problem.

    If it’s just too graphic, that’s one thing, but then at least frame the issue that way rather than saying the message in the art is the problem.
    I totally get you, and think book burning is basically dumb in any form, but there is another side to this.

    Personally, if it's so valuable, then move it to a museum.

    This article follows my understanding of the issue, based on local news and postings.

    https://news.artnet.com/opinion/mura...-reply-1599019

    The preponderance of email we’ve received at this time, indeed, speaks to the desire to keep the mural as is. However, for decades thousands of students as well as adult members of the African American and Native American communities have implored the school district to remove the mural because it causes real deleterious harm to them.

    Who to listen to, then, especially when those in favor of keeping the mural are predominantly of European descent, and those protesting the mural are overwhelmingly people of color?
    i mean it’s a mural on a wall, I don’t think there’s much way to preserve it without taking the wall down, which is impractical.

    And if the community doesn’t want it, they’re free to remove it, I just think it’s a bit sad.

  13. #3093
    Dorvil Barranis's Avatar
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    Historically interesting, unfortunate it is in a high school
    "Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Zhuge Liang


  14. #3094
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    It's only a matter of time, maybe years, maybe a few short decades, til people crossing the border illegally are simply shot on sight. The apathy to the current situation makes it clear that the "centrist voters" are slowly being conditioned to accept this.
    That's not going to happen, and no, centrist or moderate voters will not accept it. Not now, not in a few short decades.


    Maybe even before 2020.

    edit: oh, already posted in the gun thread. SHEEWT EMH!!!
    Last edited by Approaching Walrus; August 4 2019 at 11:40:34 AM.

  15. #3095

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    On the list of things i wish would surprise me anymore, literally anything happening at those rallies.

  16. #3096
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    That sure is a mighty big crowd to say that "average america" or whatever doesn't subscribe to these views.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
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  17. #3097
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    That sure is a mighty big crowd to say that "average america" or whatever doesn't subscribe to these views.
    Yes, he has a crowd. No, that crowd does not = "average American".

    We have 350 million people here. 50+ million voted for Trump last time. Less (IMO) will vote for him this time.

    Trumpists are a minority. The size of a single crowd doesn't change that. And I refuse to write-off an entire country due to the actions of a small group. Pretty sure there is a word for when you do that....

    What is the point you're trying to make exactly? That the "average American" is a racist gun-toting, wanna-be-race-warring-and-murdering hateful pigdog who laps up Trump cum?

    Ok, so what then exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    You (Isyel) are at the ranking top of all the other users in here that consistently just dishes out insults without any other content. You had it coming. Take it like a man and grow up.
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Just in case this isn't clear by now (and it really shouldn't be necessary to point out, you're all grownups) saying that people should be killed because of their political or religious convictions IS NOT FUCKING OK. Tempban handed out in the movie thread. Apply a minimum of self control ffs

  18. #3098
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    That sure is a mighty big crowd to say that "average america" or whatever doesn't subscribe to these views.
    Yes, he has a crowd. No, that crowd does not = "average American".

    We have 350 million people here. 50+ million voted for Trump last time. Less (IMO) will vote for him this time.

    Trumpists are a minority. The size of a single crowd doesn't change that. And I refuse to write-off an entire country due to the actions of a small group. Pretty sure there is a word for when you do that....

    What is the point you're trying to make exactly? That the "average American" is a racist gun-toting, wanna-be-race-warring-and-murdering hateful pigdog who laps up Trump cum?

    Ok, so what then exactly?
    "Only" 50 million out of 350 million seems a lot worse to me all on it's own than you evidently think it should, but the more useful fraction is '50 million out of the total number who voted'. In fact Trump only got ~3 million votes less than Mrs Clinton. So if we're drawing inferences from that 50 million you've quoted, the inference is that just over half of the population that is politically involved enough to pop by the polling booth endorsed his views on the day.

    Maybe that fraction will have fallen by next year, but to be honest, there's not a vast amount of evidence for it that I have been shown. His poll numbers have stayed fairly steady despite weathering literally actually dozens of scandals which would have been sufficient to sink any previous administration, and it's become evident that a shockingly large fraction of the US will excuse almost anything as long as white nationalism is prioritised. What's your argument against these people seeing increasingly overt racial persecution and discrimination as a feature, not a bug?
    Last edited by Malcanis; August 4 2019 at 01:07:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
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  19. #3099
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    That sure is a mighty big crowd to say that "average america" or whatever doesn't subscribe to these views.
    Yes, he has a crowd. No, that crowd does not = "average American".

    We have 350 million people here. 50+ million voted for Trump last time. Less (IMO) will vote for him this time.

    Trumpists are a minority. The size of a single crowd doesn't change that. And I refuse to write-off an entire country due to the actions of a small group. Pretty sure there is a word for when you do that....

    What is the point you're trying to make exactly? That the "average American" is a racist gun-toting, wanna-be-race-warring-and-murdering hateful pigdog who laps up Trump cum?

    Ok, so what then exactly?
    "Only" 50 million out of 350 million seems a lot worse to me all on it's own than you evidently think it should
    Fuck sake mate, who said it was a GOOD thing? If you can't tell I'm unhappy about it, you're not paying attention.

    but the more useful fraction is '50 million out of the total number who voted'. In fact Trump only got ~3 million votes less than Mrs Clinton. So if we're drawing inferences from that 50 million you've quoted, the inference is that just over half of the population that is politically involved enough to pop by the polling booth endorsed his views on the day.
    Oversimplistic. Any Republican gets 50 million votes. Not every Republican voter is a Trumpist. Most are the normal (still hated by FHC, granted) establishment Conservative or Libertarian type. I have no data to say what % are "classic" (R) voters and which are Trumpists.

    Maybe that fraction will have fallen by next year, but to be honest, there's not a vast amount of evidence for it that I have been shown. His poll numbers have stayed fairly steady despite weathering literally actually dozens of scandals which would have been sufficient to sink any previous administration, and it's become evident that a shockingly large fraction of the US will excuse almost anything as long as white nationalism is prioritised.
    The only poll that matters or counts is election day.

    What's your argument against these people seeing increasingly overt racial persecution and discrimination as a feature, not a bug?
    Why would I make that argument in Defense of Trumpists? You must have me confused with someone else.

    I'll ask you again:

    What is the point you're trying to make exactly? That the "average American" is a racist gun-toting, wanna-be-race-warring-and-murdering hateful pigdog who laps up Trump cum?

    Ok, so what then exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    You (Isyel) are at the ranking top of all the other users in here that consistently just dishes out insults without any other content. You had it coming. Take it like a man and grow up.
    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Just in case this isn't clear by now (and it really shouldn't be necessary to point out, you're all grownups) saying that people should be killed because of their political or religious convictions IS NOT FUCKING OK. Tempban handed out in the movie thread. Apply a minimum of self control ffs

  20. #3100
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Then what?

    Agitation? Dunno, industrial society has become a farce
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

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