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Thread: US Politics Thread, 2.0

  1. #1601
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Caldrion Dosto View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    The UK posters living with their actual healthcare system tell us to compromise with free-market extremists. lol.

    What a bunch of goobers
    this is a political experience where sadly the UK is ahead, we've done this with brexit already.

    'probably need to appeal to all voters, not just hope your base cares'

    'nah fuck them, if they believe in brexit so hard they're beyond saving'

    *loses by a few %*

    'well, fuck'

    just because someone doesn't share the same views as you politically does not make them a lost cause, and not worth trying to talk to or reason with. for every screaming radical left or right, there's probably 10 who are more open to change but need to be challenged.
    Well said.

    Narrower and narrower political tribalism and purity tests are a horrible, horrible idea.

    People can and do change, people can and do become more educated, more enlightened, with time and effort. No one is a "lost cause". And compromise and incrementalism are not dirty words.

    Something I always find odd, for some of the folks here at FHC, when it comes to economics, no amount of work, patience, understanding or effort should be spared to lift up our fellow man, no matter what decisions they've made, good or bad.

    But when it comes to political thought, differing ideas and political philosophy (almost all driven by education level), the same folks jump as far as possible the other way to say "fuck um', lost cause", or (like Erich and a few others) "fuck um, lets just kill them, we're better off without them".

    It's an amazing thing to see in action.

    I would go so far as to say that the moment you decide half of humanity is a "lost cause" to your political ideology, the only cause that's lost is your own.

    If people are poor, we should support them. If people are ignorant, we should educate them. Writing them off is a bad idea that ends in bad things.

    I do agree with most of your points here, but what makes "us" so devastated atm i think is the whole fake news discourse that is now accepted as reality.

    No amount of education will turn people just chanting "Fake news" and "alternative facts", that has never been possible to get away with before. But news and media treat a red-neck fucking his cousins the same as an peer reviewed professor. That´s severely depressing.
    This sentiment always bothers me because peer reviewed professors have played a very big role in degrading democracy right alongside the rednecks

    The populist hostility towards intellectuals can be explained by the way technocrats are able to have a veto when voters express a desire for change. Why are we still in Afghanistan when it polls at 20% public support? Don't know, ask people like Samantha Power and Susan Rice for the reason.

    Are we even in a democracy if this the case? Probably not, I'd say it's a managed democracy. And Lachesis will link inverted totalitarianism again
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Managed_democracy

    You know me so well.

  2. #1602

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    No one is a "lost cause".
    Nah. The uneducated? yeah they can be reasoned with.

    "3 degrees" and still so clueless is either malicious on purpose or genuinely a lost cause
    Last edited by Isyel; July 2 2019 at 12:33:33 AM.

  3. #1603

  4. #1604
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    https://www.propublica.org/article/s...t-sexist-memes

    “But America doesn’t have a gestapo!”
    Are these the same agents that have been sexually abusing children they locked in concentration camps?


    Magic 8 Ball says “definitely”...
    meh

  5. #1605
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    https://www.opensecrets.org/news/201...in-propaganda/
    The Russian government sent more than $1.4 million to a Florida-based company airing Kremlin propaganda in the nation’s capital over the last two years, according to recent foreign agent registration records.

    Florida-based company RM Broadcasting LLC has officially registered as a foreign agent with the Justice Department after a federal judge ordered it to do so in May.

    Marking DOJ’s first successful civil enforcement action under the Foreign Agents Registration Act in more than two decades, U.S. District Court Judge Robin Rosenberg ruled that RM Broadcasting should be registered as a foreign agent under FARA due to its relationship with Rossiya Segodnya, the Russian government’s media enterprise that owns Sputnik International and was created by Vladimir Putin to advance Russia’s interests abroad.

    A 2017 U.S. intelligence report found that Sputnik was part of “Russia’s state-run propaganda machine” that facilitated Russian interference and influence in the 2016 presidential election of Donald Trump.

    Starting shortly after Trump’s election, RM Broadcasting agreed to act as the Russian media enterprise’s middleman brokering airtime on WZHF 1390, a Washington, D.C., area radio station owned by Way Broadcasting.

    The station, which previously played bluegrass music, made serious money airing content the U.S. government considers pro-Russia propaganda. RM Broadcasting reported being paid more than $1.4 million from November 2017 to June 2019 to air Sputnik 24 hours a day.

    The agreement spans from November 2017 through the end of 2020, providing for approximately $55,000 in monthly spending interspersed with multiple six-figure advance payments.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/clima...=.e61772fe2065
    President Trump has asked the Pentagon to marshal a broadening array of military hardware, including tanks and fighter jets, to showcase his planned Fourth of July address to the nation — dramatically escalating the gathering’s cost and sparking concerns about the potentially damaging impact on the Mall and other infrastructure.

    Trump, who had already ordered up a flyover by military aircraft including Air Force One and the Navy’s Blue Angels, has pressed to expand his “Salute to America” event further with an F-35 stealth fighter and the involvement of Marine Helicopter Squadron One, which flies the presidential helicopter, according to government officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity to speak frankly. He also pushed to bring military tanks to the site of his planned speech at the Lincoln Memorial, prompting National Park Service officials to warn that such a deployment could damage the site, these individuals said.

    ......

    Trump has been fixated since early in his term on putting on a military-heavy parade or other celebration modeled on France’s Bastille Day celebration, which he attended in Paris in 2017. Trump angrily backed off plans for the grand Veterans Day parade he was planning for Pennsylvania Avenue in 2018 amid concerns from D.C. officials over the costs, including potential road damage from military vehicles.

    Abrams tanks — which Trump referred to as “Abram” tanks in his remarks — weigh far more than 60 tons and are usually transported over long distances by heavy rail. Trump also said “we have the brand-new Sherman tanks,” which have not been in use by the U.S. military since the 1950s.
    https://www.insider.com/donald-trump...-harris-2019-6
    Donald Trump Jr., the president's eldest son and outspoken defender, fanned the flames of a racist conspiracy by sharing a tweet falsely claiming that Sen. Kamala Harris isn't a black American.

    The tweet that Trump Jr. promoted suggested that Harris, who was born in Oakland, California to an Indian immigrant mother and a black Jamaican immigrant father, isn't black enough to be an authority on issues of race.

    "Kamala Harris is implying she is descended from American Black Slaves," Ali Alexander, a fringe alt-right activist, tweeted. "She's not. She comes from Jamaican Slave Owners. That's fine. She's not an American Black. Period."

    Trump Jr. shared Alexander's tweet with his 3.6 million followers during Thursday's Democratic 2020 primary debate, writing, "Is this true? Wow."
    https://www.businessinsider.com/patr...rce=reddit.com
    A digital consultant for President Donald Trump's 2020 re-election campaign used his spare time to create fake campaign websites for top Democratic candidates, The New York Times reported Saturday.

    The consultant, Patrick Mauldin, runs a Republican political consulting firm called Vici Media Group, which the Trump campaign hired for the 2016 election and currently has on retainer for 2020.

    But Mauldin's professional website doesn't disclose his hobby - making parody webpages that appeal to voters to the left of candidates like Joe Biden.

    Mauldin has made fake campaign sites for Kamala Harris, Bernie Sanders, and Elizabeth Warren, too, but those sites are difficult to find, let alone accidentally stumble upon. The fake Biden site, however, is still in the second page of Google search results for "Joe Biden," and had more unique visitors than the real campaign webpage through the end of May.
    http://mydaughtersarmy.org/open-lett...orting-family/
    So now, two and half years into the alternative reality, I’ve come to grips that this isn’t some insane nightmare. This is reality. And seeing how Trump supporters (yourselves included) have behaved since then, I really was a fool for ever believing America stood for anything else.

    I won’t bore you with my journey to “wokeness” or why the things you tolerate literally sicken me. Sexual predator? “They’re not hot enough to sexually assault.” Racist bully? “Fake news.” Uncompassionate bigot? “They should stay in their own damn countries.” Even if I had the capacity and patience to expound on every deviation from the America I thought existed, you wouldn’t care. Why? Because you’ve stopped listening. The rise of Fox News means you’ve stopped reading the papers. And even if you did, you wouldn’t be intrigued or inquisitive about what they say because you’ve bought into the idea that the press is the enemy of the people (except for Fox News and the National Review, which get passes because, well, why?).

    You’ve stopped paying attention to anyone who doesn’t agree with your crystallized view of the world. You’re the mosquito of the Reagan era, completely unaware the sap has long hardened around you into amber. And frankly, it’s not even particularly pretty amber. It’s dull, opaque, muffled. You can’t see or hear through it and you don’t want to.

    But to be honest with you, I’ve lost all interest in trying to break you free. At first, I really wanted to. I wanted you to understand how the promise of America was broken. I wanted you to see so we could find some way to fix it. But every time I tried, you trotted out some line you heard Trump spew (none of which make any sense whatsoever, by the way) or that some Fox News commentator has conned you into thinking reflects reality. So I’m done.
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    WTF I hate white people now...

  6. #1606
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Yeah we have a problem.

  7. #1607
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post

    Are we even in a democracy if this the case? Probably not, I'd say it's a managed democracy.
    aCtUaLlY AmErIcA iS a RePuBlIc
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  8. #1608
    dzajic's Avatar
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    I can just imagin ethe liberal cries from when Trump gets to appoint new justices in 2020-2024 period... And the environment will burn burn burn and world will die die die. And right wing morons will still be so smug about sticking it up to the liberals and "protecting civilziation" form SJWs...

  9. #1609
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dzajic View Post
    I can just imagin ethe liberal cries from when Trump gets to appoint new justices in 2020-2024 period... And the environment will burn burn burn and world will die die die. And right wing morons will still be so smug about sticking it up to the liberals and "protecting civilziation" form SJWs...
    Yeah but we should listen to both sides and give these suicidal idiots representation because otherwise it'll hurt their feelings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  10. #1610
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dzajic View Post
    I can just imagin ethe liberal cries from when Trump gets to appoint new justices in 2020-2024 period... And the environment will burn burn burn and world will die die die. And right wing morons will still be so smug about sticking it up to the liberals and "protecting civilziation" form SJWs...
    Yeah but we should listen to both sides and give these suicidal idiots representation because otherwise it'll hurt their feelings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  11. #1611
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    The best part about Trump and the republicans destroying the environment is it will kill off all the people who vote republican.
    meh

  12. #1612
    Keckers's Avatar
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    It'll maybe kill off some of them
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  13. #1613

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    Just to be sure I got my message across correctly (because the usual suspects are undermining it again):

    I didn't say that you should give the GOP and Trumpists representation (or even the time of day) within the Democratic party. I said the exact opposite: I said you should deny them representation within the political system by providing an off-ramp from fascism to the wavering GOP and Trump voters. Those voters who don't like, or don't agree with what the GOP and Trump are doing but they are currently are ignored, neglected, or even shunned by at least some in the Democratic party (in favour or more ideological purity).

    By all means ignore, neglect, or shun the hard-core GOP voters, and the 'lock her up/false news' Trumpist base voters. They found their political home, they won't leave it (at least while Trump is still relevant), and they won't listen to argument either. At least for now, the Dems should write them off as a lost cause, as they're locked in. Their time will, maybe, come, after the, hopefully, big blue wave in 2020, when, perhaps, they will come to their senses (or, more likely, if it does happen, the GOP will come to their senses for them).

    However, in presidential election terms/ratios, if the Dems already take, say, 50% of the vote. But the hard-core Trumpist/GOP vote (who you will not move in 2020) takes only, say, 20-30% of the vote. Leaving basically, the same amount, 20-30% of the vote without a home on either side.

    It is those voters that the Dems (all of them, mind you), should target once the candidates have set out their stall, and after the primaries. Because they don't like what they see done in their name by Trump and the GOP. Because they think Trump is a clown circus too, and they don't like how the GOP is basically the Trump party these days. They're not Dems, but they have been left behind by the GOP and Trump just as well.

    And there are plenty of ways of doing this without the Dems compromising on even their most left-wing beliefs and ideals.

    For an example of how this narrative could play out, you can imagine a conversation like this: "Listen, let's make a deal. We may not see eye-to-eye on everything, like gun-control, or abortions, etc. But we do agree on many other things. You don't like where the GOP is heading, and you think the past 4 years of Trump have been a disaster, just as much as we do. If you vote for us in 2020, you can send a powerful message to the GOP, get rid of the clown circus that is Trump, and in return we'll promise to return to 'normal' politics, and use the constitutional method of compromise on the things we disagree on. Give us a blue wave, and we'll move fast with undoing the damage that a Trump/GOP presidency has done these past 4 years. Don't, and the US will continue to struggle with a broken political system and the after effects of Trump for the next two decades. Whatdayasay?"

    The wishful thinking, especially current on the left-wing side of the Democratic party, that these 20-30% wavering GOP/Trump voters will vote against their own party anyway, if only you shout a little bit harder about how bad Trump and the GOP (or impeach him), is, I believe, a fallacy.

    Whether the Democrats like it or not, they will need those 20-30% of wavering Trump/GOP voters to get a blue wave big enough in 2020 to get the critical mass to finally 'reset' the US political system back to normality. And that means: they'll have to make a deal, and compromise also with that part of the electorate. Because the US needs a big blue wave.

    And basically, for those 20-30% it is a question of holding their nose. If the Dems court them, they'll hold their nose and vote Dems. If the Dems kick them to the curb, they'll hold their nose and vote Trump. And no amount of lefty ideological rhetoric will change that calculation. Compromise will.

    Warren 2020.

  14. #1614
    Keckers's Avatar
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    There's more common ground between republicans and corporate dems than there is between left wing dems and corporate dems. There's a manufactured 'centre' ground in American politics where the roles and rights of capital in the economy is totally superior to labour. This is the problem with corporate legal personalities and the whole fundraising mess which fucks American elections.

    That's the political reality which is dooming future generations of Americans.
    Last edited by Keckers; July 2 2019 at 11:32:41 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  15. #1615

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    There's more common ground between republicans and corporate dems than there is between left wing dems and corporate dems. There's a manufactured 'centre' ground in American politics where the roles and rights of capital in the economy is totally superior to labour. This is the problem with corporate legal personalities and the whole fundraising mess which fucks American elections.

    That's the political reality which is dooming future generations of Americans.
    And you can't do anything about it by enforcing ideological purity tests from the left, while the right runs riot with Trump. That is the political reality right now.

    The only way to stop this from ever spiralling down is to have a big blue wave in 2020. And for this the Dems have to hold out a hand to the voters Trump and the GOP have left behind.

    Because if they don't, they might scrape by and get a Democrat in the white house, but he or she will then just be held hostage again by the senate (see Obama).

    What you're proposing is brinkmanship. And we're talking about the US. Where that doesn't work. In fact, where it has gotten the US where it is now.

    And the reason is simple: Trump and the GOP don't mind burning everything to the ground, and will therefore always be better at brinkmanship. Because the Dems do, and will always cave first.

    The only thing that does actually work is compromise and incrementalism. Compromise to get the power, and incrementally restore faith and fidelity to the system by showing that it actually works.

    Pull off a big blue wave in 2020, and the Dems will be in power for decades. There's a lot of good that can be done in decades.

    Warren has a plan for that too ...

  16. #1616
    Keckers's Avatar
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    I'm not even sure if you meant to quote me there because nothing in that post including your usual 'purity test' gotcha phrase has anything to do with what I wrote.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  17. #1617

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    I'm not even sure if you meant to quote me there because nothing in that post including your usual 'purity test' gotcha phrase has anything to do with what I wrote.
    Well, you were never good at lateral thinking.

  18. #1618
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Ooooh sick burn
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  19. #1619
    Donor Sparq's Avatar
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    it's okay Keckers, Bart can rehabilitate you. Leave no shit poster behind & all that.

  20. #1620

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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    This sentiment always bothers me because peer reviewed professors have played a very big role in degrading democracy right alongside the rednecks

    The populist hostility towards intellectuals can be explained by the way technocrats are able to have a veto when voters express a desire for change. Why are we still in Afghanistan when it polls at 20% public support? Don't know, ask people like Samantha Power and Susan Rice for the reason.

    Are we even in a democracy if this the case? Probably not, I'd say it's a managed democracy. And Lachesis will link inverted totalitarianism again
    The problem with this reasoning is that it boils everything down to just "yes/no". For a lack of a better alternative, I'f probably also vote for "get out". But that's just due to the conditions and factual execution of the mission. Change these, and it'll become "hell no -stay there". Do these polls take that into regard? Having particpate in some phone polling from polling institutes I personally find serious, I always cringe when the answers to a question are so of of my opinion that the only valid answer is "none of the above". Just to have the interviewer reply "that is not a valid answer". I'm very well aware that multiple choice polls are all about efficiency. But at the same time I'm also educated enough on the matter to know that they easily lead to inaccurate results.

    Take the following example of how misleading simple answer can lead:

    Interviewer: "Do you have anything against Jews?"
    Me: "Yes, of course!"

    Outcome: "Breaking news: 34,56% of Germans are antisemits!"

    A proper interview would go like:

    Interviewer: "Do you have anything against Jews?"
    Me: "Yes, of course!"

    Interviewer: "What is the reason for that?"
    Me: "I'm an atheist. I despise any religious cult, no matter what. I treat Jews no different than Christians, Muslims, Hindus or any other delusional cultist."

    Would I still count as an antisemit? Technically yes. But the intention of the poll was a different one.

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