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Thread: US Politics Thread, 2.0

  1. #14721
    Jack Coutu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    Its the perfect strategy, bitch about anything not perfect, to make sure nothing changes and you can keep bitching.
    As if people bitching on the internet have any power or influence over policymakers. They'll do whatever their donors tell them to, not the people.
    I like that you live in a world were the shadow people control your every move.
    Not my moves, simply the moves of public officials. And they're not shadow people, they're corporate lobbyists and billionaires, the American oligarchs.

    It's cute how hopelessly na´ve and optimistic you are. They don't give shit about what people like you or me want, and they especially don't care how many angry tweets or pointless internet essays are written.
    Says the angry talkie that has nothing but "it won't work why bother" as his slogan. Unless someone is saying "look what Mao and Stalin got done" lol.

  2. #14722
    Jack Coutu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    UBI is just one policy, and not a very good one at the end of the day. Proto-UBI was effectively proposed for the rona as an emergency measure to just give people money until the crisis ended.

    But... in the long-term it would be irrelevant without an all-out attack on rents, monopsony, and working-class antagonists like payday lenders.

    So nice that you got a $1,000 check, you can then make a choice on which rent you would like to put that $1,000 into, and it's very interesting that United Health hiked their premiums a couple months after the UBI bill passed
    I mean most healthcare regularly raises premiums, they have to pay their useless admins and corporate higher ups somehow. UBI works, but not very well in a system that has so much corrupt and wasteful functions as modern western society. It would certainly help alot of people but wouldn't at all lessen the slide towards further poverty, just give some people a moment to breathe, but don't worry it'd never pass unless those other systems were under attack as well.

  3. #14723
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    UBI is just one policy, and not a very good one at the end of the day. Proto-UBI was effectively proposed for the rona as an emergency measure to just give people money until the crisis ended.

    But... in the long-term it would be irrelevant without an all-out attack on rents, monopsony, and working-class antagonists like payday lenders.

    So nice that you got a $1,000 check, you can then make a choice on which rent you would like to put that $1,000 into, and it's very interesting that United Health hiked their premiums a couple months after the UBI bill passed
    I mean most healthcare regularly raises premiums, they have to pay their useless admins and corporate higher ups somehow. UBI works, but not very well in a system that has so much corrupt and wasteful functions as modern western society. It would certainly help alot of people but wouldn't at all lessen the slide towards further poverty, just give some people a moment to breathe, but don't worry it'd never pass unless those other systems were under attack as well.
    the underlying logic of a capitalist society makes a humane approach to UBI impossible, it cannot work because poverty and starvation is fundamentally the motivating factor to get people to take the shit deal that is work, without that motivator the wheels come off.
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    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  4. #14724
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Trump pardons Flynn: https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-...-idUSKBN28536B

    Of course he would.
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  5. #14725
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    UBI is just one policy, and not a very good one at the end of the day. Proto-UBI was effectively proposed for the rona as an emergency measure to just give people money until the crisis ended.

    But... in the long-term it would be irrelevant without an all-out attack on rents, monopsony, and working-class antagonists like payday lenders.

    So nice that you got a $1,000 check, you can then make a choice on which rent you would like to put that $1,000 into, and it's very interesting that United Health hiked their premiums a couple months after the UBI bill passed
    I mean most healthcare regularly raises premiums, they have to pay their useless admins and corporate higher ups somehow. UBI works, but not very well in a system that has so much corrupt and wasteful functions as modern western society. It would certainly help alot of people but wouldn't at all lessen the slide towards further poverty, just give some people a moment to breathe, but don't worry it'd never pass unless those other systems were under attack as well.
    the underlying logic of a capitalist society makes a humane approach to UBI impossible, it cannot work because poverty and starvation is fundamentally the motivating factor to get people to take the shit deal that is work, without that motivator the wheels come off.
    I am sure the market will adjust.

  6. #14726
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    I mean a UBI would force wages up for many people that are already paid next to nothing, or see people leaving a multi job living that drags them through 18 hour work days, but yeah I'm sure its evil and has no benefits to people far poorer and worse off than all the comparatively well to do people here. If its not everything fixed all at once, why bother right? The fuel for revolution must be poured onto the wood faster!

  7. #14727
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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  8. #14728
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    I mean a UBI would force wages up for many people that are already paid next to nothing, or see people leaving a multi job living that drags them through 18 hour work days, but yeah I'm sure its evil and has no benefits to people far poorer and worse off than all the comparatively well to do people here. If its not everything fixed all at once, why bother right? The fuel for revolution must be poured onto the wood faster!
    Proper unemployment/ disability benefit plus a job guarantee program would be better. There's plenty of labour that needs doing that isn't being done because it isn't profitable. Having people stay at home and receive just enough to keep their landlord and amazon happy doesn't solve a lot.


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  9. #14729
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    I mean a UBI would force wages up for many people that are already paid next to nothing, or see people leaving a multi job living that drags them through 18 hour work days, but yeah I'm sure its evil and has no benefits to people far poorer and worse off than all the comparatively well to do people here. If its not everything fixed all at once, why bother right? The fuel for revolution must be poured onto the wood faster!
    Proper unemployment/ disability benefit plus a job guarantee program would be better. There's plenty of labour that needs doing that isn't being done because it isn't profitable. Having people stay at home and receive just enough to keep their landlord and amazon happy doesn't solve a lot.
    In what world is that what you think the vast majority of people would actually fucking do? Most people would still have to fucking work, they just wouldn't be forced to work shit jobs. I think the people that cannot work due to various factors should still be taken care of, but again this is a common perpection that the people on the bottom are just itching to loaf around all day and do nothing and have no value until they add labor or consumption into the system.

    Saying something like "the labor is profitable so it doesn't get done, fix it" is pretty much the reason we have such terrible wages now, but if that's your solution don't worry, that's the end game of the current path anyways. A vast amount of the labor the poorest do is already so awful that they only do it because it's all that's offered, and the profits are vast, but only because they get shafted so hard due to no other viable finicial options, or fall prey to payday lenders and other predators of the poor, like the healthcare system and "justice" systems fines.

  10. #14730
    Lowa [NSN]'s Avatar
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    Take UBI discussion to the automation thread or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarminic View Post
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  11. #14731
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    I mean a UBI would force wages up for many people that are already paid next to nothing, or see people leaving a multi job living that drags them through 18 hour work days, but yeah I'm sure its evil and has no benefits to people far poorer and worse off than all the comparatively well to do people here. If its not everything fixed all at once, why bother right? The fuel for revolution must be poured onto the wood faster!
    Proper unemployment/ disability benefit plus a job guarantee program would be better. There's plenty of labour that needs doing that isn't being done because it isn't profitable. Having people stay at home and receive just enough to keep their landlord and amazon happy doesn't solve a lot.
    In what world is that what you think the vast majority of people would actually fucking do? Most people would still have to fucking work, they just wouldn't be forced to work shit jobs. I think the people that cannot work due to various factors should still be taken care of, but again this is a common perpection that the people on the bottom are just itching to loaf around all day and do nothing and have no value until they add labor or consumption into the system.

    Saying something like "the labor is profitable so it doesn't get done, fix it" is pretty much the reason we have such terrible wages now, but if that's your solution don't worry, that's the end game of the current path anyways. A vast amount of the labor the poorest do is already so awful that they only do it because it's all that's offered, and the profits are vast, but only because they get shafted so hard due to no other viable finicial options, or fall prey to payday lenders and other predators of the poor, like the healthcare system and "justice" systems fines.
    Lead by example and go swim in shit sewers daily or pick strawberries pro bono. It's amazing how sheltered and bubbled your lifes are if you honestly think with introduction of UBI it will fix anything and not make it even harder to find someone to do the necessary, less glamorous jobs. Why the most simple solution of making those job simply pay better is beyond you, suggest you're pretty confused who and what you are actually fighting for.

  12. #14732

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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Why the most simple solution of making those job simply pay better is beyond you,
    And how, exactly, do you propose that could happen without also innumerable effects on the rest of the system making it just as complicated?

    Those jobs paying fuck all are a feature of the system, not a bug.

    (this is a reply strictly to that point, i dont even wanna touch the UBI discussion itself)

  13. #14733

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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    I mean a UBI would force wages up for many people that are already paid next to nothing, or see people leaving a multi job living that drags them through 18 hour work days, but yeah I'm sure its evil and has no benefits to people far poorer and worse off than all the comparatively well to do people here. If its not everything fixed all at once, why bother right? The fuel for revolution must be poured onto the wood faster!
    Proper unemployment/ disability benefit plus a job guarantee program would be better. There's plenty of labour that needs doing that isn't being done because it isn't profitable. Having people stay at home and receive just enough to keep their landlord and amazon happy doesn't solve a lot.
    In what world is that what you think the vast majority of people would actually fucking do? Most people would still have to fucking work, they just wouldn't be forced to work shit jobs. I think the people that cannot work due to various factors should still be taken care of, but again this is a common perpection that the people on the bottom are just itching to loaf around all day and do nothing and have no value until they add labor or consumption into the system.

    Saying something like "the labor is profitable so it doesn't get done, fix it" is pretty much the reason we have such terrible wages now, but if that's your solution don't worry, that's the end game of the current path anyways. A vast amount of the labor the poorest do is already so awful that they only do it because it's all that's offered, and the profits are vast, but only because they get shafted so hard due to no other viable finicial options, or fall prey to payday lenders and other predators of the poor, like the healthcare system and "justice" systems fines.
    Lead by example and go swim in shit sewers daily or pick strawberries pro bono. It's amazing how sheltered and bubbled your lifes are if you honestly think with introduction of UBI it will fix anything and not make it even harder to find someone to do the necessary, less glamorous jobs. Why the most simple solution of making those job simply pay better is beyond you, suggest you're pretty confused who and what you are actually fighting for.
    How do you propose to make these jobs pay better? At least UBI will put a floor on wages. Hell, if UBI is enough to get by on then the proper shit jobs (like swimming in a sewer) will pay more than the mundane shit jobs (e.g call centre workers).

  14. #14734
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    UBI is just one policy, and not a very good one at the end of the day. Proto-UBI was effectively proposed for the rona as an emergency measure to just give people money until the crisis ended.

    But... in the long-term it would be irrelevant without an all-out attack on rents, monopsony, and working-class antagonists like payday lenders.

    So nice that you got a $1,000 check, you can then make a choice on which rent you would like to put that $1,000 into, and it's very interesting that United Health hiked their premiums a couple months after the UBI bill passed
    You will not get anywhere without free at the point of purchase healthcare in the US, that isn't tied to good employment, and without a cost of living cap so that can be matched + economic stimulus benefit = UBI. The cost of living cap could be subsidized rent chits, or caps with fair market rate adjustments. I think you can get the first, but more or less never the second in the US while the well remains so poisonous.
    What if it were only to apply to white people?
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

  15. #14735
    מלך יהודים Zeekar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    I mean a UBI would force wages up for many people that are already paid next to nothing, or see people leaving a multi job living that drags them through 18 hour work days, but yeah I'm sure its evil and has no benefits to people far poorer and worse off than all the comparatively well to do people here. If its not everything fixed all at once, why bother right? The fuel for revolution must be poured onto the wood faster!
    Proper unemployment/ disability benefit plus a job guarantee program would be better. There's plenty of labour that needs doing that isn't being done because it isn't profitable. Having people stay at home and receive just enough to keep their landlord and amazon happy doesn't solve a lot.
    In what world is that what you think the vast majority of people would actually fucking do? Most people would still have to fucking work, they just wouldn't be forced to work shit jobs. I think the people that cannot work due to various factors should still be taken care of, but again this is a common perpection that the people on the bottom are just itching to loaf around all day and do nothing and have no value until they add labor or consumption into the system.

    Saying something like "the labor is profitable so it doesn't get done, fix it" is pretty much the reason we have such terrible wages now, but if that's your solution don't worry, that's the end game of the current path anyways. A vast amount of the labor the poorest do is already so awful that they only do it because it's all that's offered, and the profits are vast, but only because they get shafted so hard due to no other viable finicial options, or fall prey to payday lenders and other predators of the poor, like the healthcare system and "justice" systems fines.
    Lead by example and go swim in shit sewers daily or pick strawberries pro bono. It's amazing how sheltered and bubbled your lifes are if you honestly think with introduction of UBI it will fix anything and not make it even harder to find someone to do the necessary, less glamorous jobs. Why the most simple solution of making those job simply pay better is beyond you, suggest you're pretty confused who and what you are actually fighting for.
    How do you propose to make these jobs pay better? At least UBI will put a floor on wages. Hell, if UBI is enough to get by on then the proper shit jobs (like swimming in a sewer) will pay more than the mundane shit jobs (e.g call centre workers).
    Minimum wage solves that as well. Which is what should happen first then you can discuss ubi...


    

  16. #14736
    Duckslayer's Avatar
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    Minimum wage is somewhat negated by zero hours contracts.

  17. #14737
    Movember 2012 Zekk Pacus's Avatar
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    And also the fact that in every nation it exists in minimum wage has been decoupled from its purpose.

    There are huge swathes of both the US and the UK where two workers working full time on minimum wage literally cannot afford to exist.
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  18. #14738
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    Minimum wage lol

  19. #14739

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    We only have something like "all workers are entitled to just compensation for their work" in laws, but then again we have these things called large workers unions.

  20. #14740
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    UBI is just one policy, and not a very good one at the end of the day. Proto-UBI was effectively proposed for the rona as an emergency measure to just give people money until the crisis ended.

    But... in the long-term it would be irrelevant without an all-out attack on rents, monopsony, and working-class antagonists like payday lenders.

    So nice that you got a $1,000 check, you can then make a choice on which rent you would like to put that $1,000 into, and it's very interesting that United Health hiked their premiums a couple months after the UBI bill passed
    You will not get anywhere without free at the point of purchase healthcare in the US, that isn't tied to good employment, and without a cost of living cap so that can be matched + economic stimulus benefit = UBI. The cost of living cap could be subsidized rent chits, or caps with fair market rate adjustments. I think you can get the first, but more or less never the second in the US while the well remains so poisonous.
    What if it were only to apply to white people?
    Been somewhere where they tried that. It failed p badly.
    meh

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