also:Originally Posted by walrus
FYP
also:FYP
Also:
Imagine getting into your 20s before you realize actions have consequences.
meh
an added aspect here is that it serves to sound out who's onboard with the methods used. a frighteningly large section of the republicans in congress and senate are going to vote against when the time comes, and i suspect that is part of the reason why Pelosi isn't so keen on putting it out there.
the thing about attempted coups is that the rulebook goes straight in the trash when it happens, you can fish it up and use it again later of course, but it's very much a "all bets are off" situation and by any sane metric, Congress and Senate has completely flopped the response. by that i mean they're either too weak to mount a "in kind" response, or they are too myopic to see what actually happened and treat it as such.
the rules stop applying when one party tries to have the other party killed Lallante.I sort of do too. I think the 25th should be for medical incapacity or insanity, not punishment or political statement. That's literally what impeachment is for.Nope, strangely I agree with Pence on this one, while I loathe his whole being.
25th is when the President is ill, under surgery or Alzheimer got the better of him.
If the president commits crimes like 6th Jan, that what the Impeachment is for.
Think about it a bit differently, while Pence using the 25th would convenient and risk free for the next 6-7 days, would it really help on the long term?
No, this is the time when Congress & the Senate has to write the history book and show the Dems while in majority both in Congress & the Senate can make it happen.
In the meantime where are the investigations & hearings, why the National Guard had to be sent in on an out of chain of command request?
All of the people disagreeing with you are really just saying "who cares what the purpose of the 25th is, lets use whatever means we can to get rid of him, constitutional, legal or not, because he deserves it"
Impeachment is the right route to that. If the Senate REALLY wanted to impeach him (it doesnt, not even the dems want to right now), it could do so very quickly. They want to delay it into Biden's presidency for political reasons, which is fair enough, but it rather proves the situation isnt actually urgent
You dont protect your system of democracy by breaking its most important rules when you feel the ends justify the means.
offing him on the 25th would be a face-saving measure and allow a whole bunch of republicans and government officials to wash their hands of the whole affair, that would be the point of doing it that way.
by the looks of it, McConnell is going to block anything until after the inauguration at minimum, raising the spectre that the republican party, as a whole, is perfectly fine with extrajudicial shenanigans like say, having the president use a mob to storm congress when it serves their goals. and at that point, it's not a democracy anymore, it's just a farce pretending to be one.
Viking, n.:
1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.
Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.
It was always a sham democracy
Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.
It's what one calls "privilege".
The Capitol in DC right now. Feeling better about the state of things?
Not really seeing as your friends caused this
He is just angry he missed his chance to join.Not really seeing as your friends caused this
Why they are my friends? Because being mildly Conservator is here literally Nazis ?Not really seeing as your friends caused this
After seeing where your shitty ideals inevitably leads to, like every time? Yeah pmuch.
I don't know what else you are, but you are clearly a straight up racist.
If you want to pretend to yourself that this isn't true, just look through your last 5 posts in this thread.
Last edited by duckduck; January 13 2021 at 09:45:51 PM.
Which Capitol rioters would Candy be?
A. Man so dumb he stole a podium
B. Man carrying Confederate flag and thinking he was cool
C. Man falling off oddly scalable walls into a barricade fence like a real moron
v0v Trump hit his 70s first...
None of those are good enough reasons. "Face saving" and "well they did worse first" are terrible reasons to throw your constitutional rules out of the window. Your best argument (that I still disagree with) is that it is needed to protect the system/democracy...but it isnt really. No one REALLY believes Trump could overthrow democracy in the next 7 days in a way that exercising the 25th would magically prevent - if you are worried about him raising another extra-legal militia, how does the 25th prevent that? If you genuinely believe the Army or another armed service would follow his orders to suspend democracy....what makes you think they would respect an exercise of the 25th?
It's gesture politics. Just a "Fuck you!". I'm not opposed to that kind of thing in some circumstances, but here it sets an AWFUL precedent and is clearly contrary to the constitutional intent and in any case there's a better and more appropriate solution with wider ranging effect: impeachment
Last edited by Lallante; January 13 2021 at 11:11:25 PM.
Are we reading the same Liare posts here?None of those are good enough reasons. "Face saving" and "well they did worse first" are terrible reasons to throw your constitutional rules out of the window. Your best argument (that I still disagree with) is that it is needed to protect the system/democracy...but it isnt really. No one REALLY believes Trump could overthrow democracy in the next 7 days in a way that exercising the 25th would magically prevent - if you are worried about him raising another extra-legal militia, how does the 25th prevent that? If you genuinely believe the Army or another armed service would follow his orders to suspend democracy....what makes you think they would respect an exercise of the 25th?
It's gesture politics. Just a "Fuck you!". I'm not opposed to that kind of thing in some circumstances, but here it sets an AWFUL precedent and is clearly contrary to the constitutional intent and in any case there's a better and more appropriate solution with wider ranging effect: impeachment
lall-lalla-lallante can't hear you
The worst precedent the 25th sets is for the incoming geriatric president.
Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.
I'd rather them just impeach. at this point it's pretty clear the Joint Chiefs aren't with him, the most dangerous officials are the morons that probably helped them get inside. It'll keep pouring out as the weeks go on for sure though, but impeachment will probably happen after he's gone, not before, as Mitch is still the one who is responsible for a majority of this bullshit and will continue scheming until he's dead or gone.
the executive branch tried to depose the legislative branch with mob violence, the rules are already out the window. at that point it's naked power politics, by force of arms if required, the rules come back into play later.
but it is, there is more at stake here than Trump, who himself is largely a spend force. it is just as much the implicit messaging of the last week. in terms of what that actually messages, it can be broken down into two things. 1 : the legislative branch is weak and indecisive even when confronted with a coup and 2 : roughly half the two party system is entirely onboard with using every tool at their disposal up to and including executing a coup.
decisive action out of the gate, such as a near unanimous impeachment vote would have consolidated the legislative branch's position as the "keepers" of the system, in it together against the tyranny of the executive, but that didn't happen. instead Pence was asked to invoke the 25th, that he then refused and now today's impeachment vote that is 232/197, with just a ten republicans crossing the aisle and four abstaining. what that actually says is half of congress is willing to throw the other half under the bus in the name of power. in the countries the US likes to lord over, this is the point where you discreetly start talking to your supporters and tell them it's time to dig up pa's gun cache and buddy up with the local military garrisons, 'cause it's not going to end well and it's best to be prepared.
nobody thought he would try run a amateur hour coup trough his crazed supporters, look how that worked out.
it doesn't and that is not why i argue for the 25th, using it as hand-washing exercise and rallying behind the system is the point. there are, no doubt, legit republicans like Pence who can't admit that they've decided to ride the tiger of fascism and only just now realize that it's going to devour them when they try to get off. throwing Donald under the bus this way gives them a out at the expense of a outgoing president who is, invariably going to end up impeached (honestly, the legitimacy of the system goes entirely out the window if he gets away with it, instead of just mostly where we are now)
instead we got a fair bit of pussy-footing around the issue, and now today's vote that is almost entirely partisan and that will get used and weaponized among the republican base as "the evil demoncrats deposing our beloved president!" and what have you.
it's still "just" a spat between branches of government, the attempt would have been enough even if the local NG commander told Pelosi to fuck off.
Trump's objective was not to have the army depose congress, but give the nation a fait accompli wherein he would continue as president in the aftermath of a angry crowd storming congress and lynching parts of both senate and congress. the right response to that sort of scenario is not "lets convene in three hours, wrap up business as usual and then just bugger off home!" and that, is what Congress did.
and coming off weak as a response to a riled up mob of fascists storming congress doesn't ?
as i wrote initially, the rulebook is already out of the window, how you gift-wrap deposing trump matters less than the actual doing of it.
Viking, n.:
1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.
Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.
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