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Thread: US Politics Thread, 2.0

  1. #17341
    Joshua Foiritain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    And I don't know who y'all are arguing here, afaik LITERALLY NOBODY on FHC is in favour of corporatocratic laissez faire capitalism.
    I am. Once the governments of the world start collapsing we will transform your decrepit cities into walled off corporate city states and you lefties will be locked outside the wall to argue with each other and to only be occasionally let in for janitorial work while wearing a gag. I shall wave to you from my (sadly fairly low placed due to unimportant status) balcony.




  2. #17342
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Foiritain View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    And I don't know who y'all are arguing here, afaik LITERALLY NOBODY on FHC is in favour of corporatocratic laissez faire capitalism.
    I am. Once the governments of the world start collapsing we will transform your decrepit cities into walled off corporate city states and you lefties will be locked outside the wall to argue with each other and to only be occasionally let in for janitorial work while wearing a gag. I shall wave to you from my (sadly fairly low placed due to unimportant status) balcony.

    Dome. It'll be a dome....
    meh

  3. #17343
    Liare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    I believe it's your side, with rigid adherence to a disproven 200 year old theory and purity tests to ensure nothing is ever good enough to be the goal.
    philosophy is by its very nature not provable science, your entire argument falls apart on this basis alone. but lets ignore that for now.

    because what you're doing here is more interesting, you're having an argument with a literal fucking strawman in your head. you imagine that i derive my live philosophy wholly from a "disproven" 200 year old theory, where does this come from ? where did i give that impression ?
    the closest thing i have done in terms of actually stating a coherent socio-political standpoint here, or on discord, is discussing Anarcho-syndicalism in the explicit context that i live in and find myself in, only that's 100 years old at this point, now you could be referencing it's underpinnings, harkening back to Proudhon. but i am reasonably certain you don't even know who that is or what he actually wrote about and did in his lifetime.

    instead, you're having this battle with a strawman that you seem to have poured everything you dont like, but can't pin on the "republicans" into and continually post ragey snippets at, most of these ragey snippets aren't even your own, it's almost word-for-word reproductions of the sort of snide editorial comments that permeate the liberal media sphere. you, intentionally or not, continue the tradition of infantilizing rather than engaging with left wing arguments and for what ?

    because you think it makes people like me angry and you get a jolly out of trolling ?

    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    are really the ones who are out of arguments, tbh, as evidenced by the fact the voting record in favor of such is more or less non existent in the west, recently. A problem you refuse to come to grips with.
    that is a whopper of a statement considering the legacy of social democracy and socialism in europe.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  4. #17344
    Venec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Venec View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by evil edna View Post
    This boring shit is making me actually start to prefer the idea of anarcho-capitalism
    Some of my real life self proclaimed marxist-communist friends (think Keckers on steroids) are actually excited there's a chance we're gonna get cyberpunk in our lifetime. I mean cognitive dissonance among far right is well established fact, but this? I lack the words how to even describe it.
    Call them morons and stop listening to them, if that's the actual case. Cause I'm having a hard time believing someone is unironically longing for that, esp if they're serious about the marxist worldview.
    I don't, I explain how they are wrong in a slightly trollish manner, as I do here with you guys. Results are the same.
    Then it's as effective as capitalism is with providing me with a good quality of life \_(ツ)_/

  5. #17345
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    I see. So we're talking Spanish Civil War period, circa 36-39' give or take?

    And it was defeated in the War.

    3 years total, almost a hundred years ago, all of it under the shadow of constant War, and this is the best example of anarcho-syndicalism we've got, eh?
    yes, and ?
    im not seeing the point you think you are making here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    And looking at a few brief wikipedia links from yours, I see the usual:

    "During the first weeks of the war, courts of law were replaced by revolutionary tribunals and extrajudicial killings by militants and vigilantes soon followed".

    "During the initial fighting several thousand individuals were executed by anarchist and socialist militants based on their assumed political allegiance and social class."

    "We do not wish to deny that the nineteenth of July brought with it an overflowing of passions and abuses, a natural phenomenon of the transfer of power from the hands of privileged to the hands of the people. It is possible that our victory resulted in the death by violence of four or five thousand inhabitants of Catalonia who were listed as rightists and were linked to political or ecclesiastical reaction.".

    So true anarcho-syndicalism does in fact come with it mass murder of political enemies, even in the example often cited as the best by FHC's various flavor far-left.
    it's almost as if war is fucking terrible. but if you really want to go into a measuring contest between what the socialists and anarchists where doing, and what the fascists they where fighting was up to, then we can do that. because they where at least ten times worse, actual numbers being disputed, and the occasional mass grave turning up to this day. and that's ignoring what happened afterwards.

    you're not even making a point Alistair, you're pulling some objectively terrible historical facts out of their context and going "hmm, interesting. look at how MONSTROUSLY EVIL these people are!". this is of course, a proud liberal tradition mostly used precisely for what you're doing with it here, demonizing the opposition without having to materially engage with their points or reasoning. what's even funnier is your inane bikshedding, the spanish civil war killed half a million people by the low estimates, meaning you're obsessing over less than a percentage without even grasping the situation it happened in.

    it's classic willful ignorance on display.
    The point I was making was that it was quite a while ago, was very short lived, and never ruled during a peacetime for a "best in-practice example" of a governmental/economic system.

    It was also unsuccessful at the basic test of any governmental/political system, it failed to win over the majority of the people and failed to successfully defend itself from aggressive rival systems of the time.

    I would expect a "best example" of your preferred system, the one you posted that propaganda cartoon about (which doesn't include people shooting class enemies), to not engage in the same types of human rights abuses and political-based mass murder that we're critical of Communists systems for engaging in.

    Pointing this out isn't "demonizing", nor have I described them as "monstrously evil" nor am I defending Franco or the Fascists or their actions during the Civil War.

    If you don't think these are points worth considering, that's certainly fine.
    Last edited by Alistair; February 19 2021 at 06:45:59 PM.


  6. #17346
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    Venec, that might be the most entitled post on FHC ever
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  7. #17347
    rufuske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venec View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Venec View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by evil edna View Post
    This boring shit is making me actually start to prefer the idea of anarcho-capitalism
    Some of my real life self proclaimed marxist-communist friends (think Keckers on steroids) are actually excited there's a chance we're gonna get cyberpunk in our lifetime. I mean cognitive dissonance among far right is well established fact, but this? I lack the words how to even describe it.
    Call them morons and stop listening to them, if that's the actual case. Cause I'm having a hard time believing someone is unironically longing for that, esp if they're serious about the marxist worldview.
    I don't, I explain how they are wrong in a slightly trollish manner, as I do here with you guys. Results are the same.
    Then it's as effective as capitalism is with providing me with a good quality of life \_(ツ)_/
    Have you considered it's not capitalism that might be at fault here?

  8. #17348
    Venec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    I see. So we're talking Spanish Civil War period, circa 36-39' give or take?

    And it was defeated in the War.

    3 years total, almost a hundred years ago, all of it under the shadow of constant War, and this is the best example of anarcho-syndicalism we've got, eh?
    yes, and ?
    im not seeing the point you think you are making here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    And looking at a few brief wikipedia links from yours, I see the usual:

    "During the first weeks of the war, courts of law were replaced by revolutionary tribunals and extrajudicial killings by militants and vigilantes soon followed".

    "During the initial fighting several thousand individuals were executed by anarchist and socialist militants based on their assumed political allegiance and social class."

    "We do not wish to deny that the nineteenth of July brought with it an overflowing of passions and abuses, a natural phenomenon of the transfer of power from the hands of privileged to the hands of the people. It is possible that our victory resulted in the death by violence of four or five thousand inhabitants of Catalonia who were listed as rightists and were linked to political or ecclesiastical reaction.".

    So true anarcho-syndicalism does in fact come with it mass murder of political enemies, even in the example often cited as the best by FHC's various flavor far-left.
    it's almost as if war is fucking terrible. but if you really want to go into a measuring contest between what the socialists and anarchists where doing, and what the fascists they where fighting was up to, then we can do that. because they where at least ten times worse, actual numbers being disputed, and the occasional mass grave turning up to this day. and that's ignoring what happened afterwards.

    you're not even making a point Alistair, you're pulling some objectively terrible historical facts out of their context and going "hmm, interesting. look at how MONSTROUSLY EVIL these people are!". this is of course, a proud liberal tradition mostly used precisely for what you're doing with it here, demonizing the opposition without having to materially engage with their points or reasoning. what's even funnier is your inane bikshedding, the spanish civil war killed half a million people by the low estimates, meaning you're obsessing over less than a percentage without even grasping the situation it happened in.

    it's classic willful ignorance on display.
    The point I was making was that it was quite a while ago, was very short lived, and never ruled during a peacetime for a "best in-practice example" of a governmental/economic system.

    It was also unsuccessful at the basic test of any governmental/political system, it failed to win over the majority of the people and failed to successfully defend itself from aggressive rival systems of the time.

    I would expect a "best example" of your preferred system, the one you posted that propaganda cartoon about, to not engage in the same types of human rights abuses and political-based mass murder that we're critical of Communists systems for engaging in.

    Pointing this out isn't "demonizing", nor have I described them as "monstrously evil" nor am I defending Franco or the Fascists or their actions during the Civil War.

    If you don't think these are points worth considering, that's certainly fine.
    If your "best example" of a working capitalism can't provide me with a working healthcare, affordable housing, protection in workplace or actually a wage that lets be me independent from my family in my 30s I will actually take anything else that history has showed me to be providing that.

  9. #17349
    Venec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Venec View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Venec View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by evil edna View Post
    This boring shit is making me actually start to prefer the idea of anarcho-capitalism
    Some of my real life self proclaimed marxist-communist friends (think Keckers on steroids) are actually excited there's a chance we're gonna get cyberpunk in our lifetime. I mean cognitive dissonance among far right is well established fact, but this? I lack the words how to even describe it.
    Call them morons and stop listening to them, if that's the actual case. Cause I'm having a hard time believing someone is unironically longing for that, esp if they're serious about the marxist worldview.
    I don't, I explain how they are wrong in a slightly trollish manner, as I do here with you guys. Results are the same.
    Then it's as effective as capitalism is with providing me with a good quality of life \_(ツ)_/
    Have you considered it's not capitalism that might be at fault here?
    I have and I've came to the conclusion that is full of shit. Why? Because it's a generational experience, like for example half of people my age still live with their parents and half of Poles earn less than the amount that lets them be independent.

  10. #17350
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    I believe it's your side, with rigid adherence to a disproven 200 year old theory and purity tests to ensure nothing is ever good enough to be the goal.
    philosophy is by its very nature not provable science, your entire argument falls apart on this basis alone. but lets ignore that for now.

    because what you're doing here is more interesting, you're having an argument with a literal fucking strawman in your head. you imagine that i derive my live philosophy wholly from a "disproven" 200 year old theory, where does this come from ? where did i give that impression ?
    the closest thing i have done in terms of actually stating a coherent socio-political standpoint here, or on discord, is discussing Anarcho-syndicalism in the explicit context that i live in and find myself in, only that's 100 years old at this point, now you could be referencing it's underpinnings, harkening back to Proudhon. but i am reasonably certain you don't even know who that is or what he actually wrote about and did in his lifetime.

    instead, you're having this battle with a strawman that you seem to have poured everything you dont like, but can't pin on the "republicans" into and continually post ragey snippets at, most of these ragey snippets aren't even your own, it's almost word-for-word reproductions of the sort of snide editorial comments that permeate the liberal media sphere. you, intentionally or not, continue the tradition of infantilizing rather than engaging with left wing arguments and for what ?

    because you think it makes people like me angry and you get a jolly out of trolling ?

    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    are really the ones who are out of arguments, tbh, as evidenced by the fact the voting record in favor of such is more or less non existent in the west, recently. A problem you refuse to come to grips with.
    that is a whopper of a statement considering the legacy of social democracy and socialism in europe.
    You literally said in another thread the other week, the social democrats are "irrelevant" and implied they were turning fascist too.
    meh

  11. #17351
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venec View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    I see. So we're talking Spanish Civil War period, circa 36-39' give or take?

    And it was defeated in the War.

    3 years total, almost a hundred years ago, all of it under the shadow of constant War, and this is the best example of anarcho-syndicalism we've got, eh?
    yes, and ?
    im not seeing the point you think you are making here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    And looking at a few brief wikipedia links from yours, I see the usual:

    "During the first weeks of the war, courts of law were replaced by revolutionary tribunals and extrajudicial killings by militants and vigilantes soon followed".

    "During the initial fighting several thousand individuals were executed by anarchist and socialist militants based on their assumed political allegiance and social class."

    "We do not wish to deny that the nineteenth of July brought with it an overflowing of passions and abuses, a natural phenomenon of the transfer of power from the hands of privileged to the hands of the people. It is possible that our victory resulted in the death by violence of four or five thousand inhabitants of Catalonia who were listed as rightists and were linked to political or ecclesiastical reaction.".

    So true anarcho-syndicalism does in fact come with it mass murder of political enemies, even in the example often cited as the best by FHC's various flavor far-left.
    it's almost as if war is fucking terrible. but if you really want to go into a measuring contest between what the socialists and anarchists where doing, and what the fascists they where fighting was up to, then we can do that. because they where at least ten times worse, actual numbers being disputed, and the occasional mass grave turning up to this day. and that's ignoring what happened afterwards.

    you're not even making a point Alistair, you're pulling some objectively terrible historical facts out of their context and going "hmm, interesting. look at how MONSTROUSLY EVIL these people are!". this is of course, a proud liberal tradition mostly used precisely for what you're doing with it here, demonizing the opposition without having to materially engage with their points or reasoning. what's even funnier is your inane bikshedding, the spanish civil war killed half a million people by the low estimates, meaning you're obsessing over less than a percentage without even grasping the situation it happened in.

    it's classic willful ignorance on display.
    The point I was making was that it was quite a while ago, was very short lived, and never ruled during a peacetime for a "best in-practice example" of a governmental/economic system.

    It was also unsuccessful at the basic test of any governmental/political system, it failed to win over the majority of the people and failed to successfully defend itself from aggressive rival systems of the time.

    I would expect a "best example" of your preferred system, the one you posted that propaganda cartoon about, to not engage in the same types of human rights abuses and political-based mass murder that we're critical of Communists systems for engaging in.

    Pointing this out isn't "demonizing", nor have I described them as "monstrously evil" nor am I defending Franco or the Fascists or their actions during the Civil War.

    If you don't think these are points worth considering, that's certainly fine.
    If your "best example" of a working capitalism can't provide me with a working healthcare, affordable housing, protection in workplace or actually a wage that lets be me independent from my family in my 30s I will actually take anything else that history has showed me to be providing that.
    Sweden, any of the nordics, I'd say.

    The swiss have it gud, but that's all dirty money.
    meh

  12. #17352
    evil edna's Avatar
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    It does for a lot of people though, maybe time to retrain

  13. #17353
    Venec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    Venec, that might be the most entitled post on FHC ever
    Good. Settling down for scraps never made anyone happy.

  14. #17354
    Joshua Foiritain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venec View Post
    If your "best example" of a working capitalism can't provide me with a working healthcare, affordable housing, protection in workplace or actually a wage that lets be me independent from my family in my 30s I will actually take anything else that history has showed me to be providing that.
    hol up

    Isnt that more of a your country then a capitalism problem though? Pretty much any capitalist first world country has those things.



  15. #17355
    mewninn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evil edna View Post
    It does for a lot of people though, maybe time to retrain
    retrain yourself to stop posting

  16. #17356
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venec View Post
    If your "best example" of a working capitalism.......
    Why do you presume my own favored political/economic system is Capitalism?

    It isn't, by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venec View Post
    I have and I've came to the conclusion that is full of shit. Why? Because it's a generational experience, like for example half of people my age still live with their parents and half of Poles earn less than the amount that lets them be independent.
    Would you argue that it was better for the average Pole under the former, Communist, system?

    Remind me, were you alive and an adult during that time, or were you born afterwards?


  17. #17357
    rufuske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venec View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Venec View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Venec View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by evil edna View Post
    This boring shit is making me actually start to prefer the idea of anarcho-capitalism
    Some of my real life self proclaimed marxist-communist friends (think Keckers on steroids) are actually excited there's a chance we're gonna get cyberpunk in our lifetime. I mean cognitive dissonance among far right is well established fact, but this? I lack the words how to even describe it.
    Call them morons and stop listening to them, if that's the actual case. Cause I'm having a hard time believing someone is unironically longing for that, esp if they're serious about the marxist worldview.
    I don't, I explain how they are wrong in a slightly trollish manner, as I do here with you guys. Results are the same.
    Then it's as effective as capitalism is with providing me with a good quality of life \_(ツ)_/
    Have you considered it's not capitalism that might be at fault here?
    I have and I've came to the conclusion that is full of shit. Why? Because it's a generational experience, like for example half of people my age still live with their parents and half of Poles earn less than the amount that lets them be independent.
    I'm sorry, you're not happy with increasing taxation and wealth redistribution along the lines of 500+ etc that's happening nowadays in Poland? Free healthcare being provided? Or university education being free? By all objective measures you're living in the paradise you want. So how's that working out for you?

    Trolling aside, I don't know what it would take for you to realize the problem at fault here is not capitalism, communism or any other ism. It's idiots in charge and how the current perversion of the system fosters pathological behaviour. Hate to break it you, but you would be as much of a self proclaimed failure under communism and especially under anarchism. Because with wide adoption of the latter it's not about sharing the bread in your commune but who has the biggest stick to come to your commune to get the bread you baked instead of baking it himself.
    Last edited by rufuske; February 19 2021 at 07:10:54 PM.

  18. #17358
    rufuske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Venec View Post
    If your "best example" of a working capitalism.......
    Why do you presume my own favored political/economic system is Capitalism?

    It isn't, by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venec View Post
    I have and I've came to the conclusion that is full of shit. Why? Because it's a generational experience, like for example half of people my age still live with their parents and half of Poles earn less than the amount that lets them be independent.
    Would you argue that it was better for the average Pole under the former, Communist, system?

    Remind me, were you alive and an adult during that time, or were you born afterwards?
    He wasn't. At that point I'm certain I'm arguing with 20 sth year olds that are still in their rebellious rose tinted glasses phase.

  19. #17359
    Keckers's Avatar
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    If you value leisure time this current economic system is probably the worst in the west for at least a millennium.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  20. #17360
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    yes, but you aren't dying from tooth abscesses at 35 anymore, either.
    meh

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