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Thread: [Devblog] Price Indices - June 2011

  1. #41

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    I don't have a complete model of how public opinion is formed among the player base, but as I see it, the game haven't really changed much (for better for worst) for the last few years. One major source of negative sentiments is reaction to CCP's attitude and other out of game information than anything players have direct interaction with. I don't think QEN is a source of dissatisfaction, but it has the power to organize disjoint unhappiness into a coherent, if likely still wrong, narrative that could spread across the player base. (a problem isn't a problem until everyone agrees its a problem, and get upset over it)

    I would say that Eve is not a "good game", (in the way some blizzard games are) but that never changed. As I see it, there was never this glorious era in the past (if I add samples of guys that quit long ago) where ships were balanced, pvp was free of unfair FOTM faggotry, blobs and imba titans, pve is fun, the sov system didn't cause sanity problems and the interface slick and a pleasure to use. (okay, engine trails means infinitely better game play yo)

    If the game from the grunt perspective has remained static, just what has changed?
    Last edited by Shin_getter; July 25 2011 at 09:31:55 PM.

  2. #42
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shin_getter View Post
    The customers have far too many demands, not insight.
    They have both. Independant of validity of perception, data, or even perspective. It's CCP's job to deal with that, after all there are interdependancies of a commercial nature.

    They have made a decision on that. One which is not necessarily the better one, even if it is understandable.

    Also, don't underestimate (like CCP did and continues to do) that EVE players see CCP as part of what Hilmar calls "emergant dynamic". Which is I should mention accurate. Immersive products go hand in hand with the host company being part of the experience delivery. It's part of brand management typically even. CCP engaged on that deliberately, nurtured it, cultivated it. On purpose. So, that is part of their job as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shin_getter View Post
    If people stop complaining about it all the time, the QEN might have survived. When the player base generates a negative incentive for releasing information, secrecy is the natural result.
    Again, it is CCP's job to deal with that, in a proper and useful manner for business purposes - which includes customer management. A company that practices Fearless and Transparancy, should be a walk in the park. At minimum because that crowd control is extremely predictable. Or well, should be. Ok, should have been.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shin_getter View Post
    If the game from the grunt perspective has remained static, just what has changed?
    The difference between that static experience and the potential as presented repetitively in messaging / presentation.

    It's a case of expectation management vs. brand management. CCP has always focused hard on the show and the shiny, for good and bad reasons alike. But they let it come to a situation where they created perceptions of promises - in spite of warnings against that (from themselves even). In a nutshell, they never took the time to balance all the talk with the actual actions. That has nothing to do with intentions btw, it's just a deliberate imbalance quite common in business. Thing is ... EVE's not that can of soup ...
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by killfalcon View Post
    The other side of Hanlons' Razor is "the team were getting further and further behind with each QEN, so rather than hire an additional economonkey they cut back the schedule".
    You're kidding yourself if you think they don't produce, have, and use this data internally. The recent QEN articles on supercap proliferation and mineral compression, for example, were far too detailed to think otherwise. The fact that they can use this data for QENs is a bonus, not the sum of what this data is being used for.
    Ripard Teg (among others)... what's our new alliance called again?
    I was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer, to good effect. Or at least, that's what most of EVE believes.

  4. #44
    Super Ponerator Global Moderator Evelgrivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtuozzo View Post
    The difference between that static experience and the potential as presented repetitively in messaging / presentation.

    It's a case of expectation management vs. brand management. CCP has always focused hard on the show and the shiny, for good and bad reasons alike. But they let it come to a situation where they created perceptions of promises - in spite of warnings against that (from themselves even). In a nutshell, they never took the time to balance all the talk with the actual actions. That has nothing to do with intentions btw, it's just a deliberate imbalance quite common in business. Thing is ... EVE's not that can of soup ...
    In other words, CCP has been entirely too consistent on promising much and delivering little, delivering late, and delivering badly (Incarna). Bitter and disenfranchised players don't expect CCP to stop being consistently disappointing which is a pretty big incentive to stop playing.

  5. #45
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evelgrivion View Post
    In other words, CCP has been entirely too consistent on promising much and delivering little, delivering late, and delivering badly (Incarna). Bitter and disenfranchised players don't expect CCP to stop being consistently disappointing which is a pretty big incentive to stop playing.
    Nah. They have just focused too much on presentation, on showcasing, and generating an experience that builds momentum (and thus sales). That is not the same as making promises. Thing is however, that CCP has never found a balance in that, so for them it should never have been a surprise that people take presentation as promises, nor should it have been hard for them to prevent that from happening (or even to capitalise on it).

    As I said, it's common business. But not entirely completely applicable without incurring costs.

    Daddy daddy are we going to disneyland
    Yes dear, disneyland is awesome
    Daddy daddy, when are we going to disneyland
    Soon dear, soon
    Disneyland is awesome dear
    And we'll go to awesome X
    And awesome Y
    Look at these videos dear
    Daddy daddy when are we going, you promised
    Soon dear, soon
    Look at these pictures dear, awesome isn't it
    Here, I got you this Micky Mouse Fanclub ear thing to put on from disney's online store
    but daddy, you said we were going to disneyland
    I swear if you don't stop nagging me you can go live with your mother
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    You're kidding yourself if you think they don't produce, have, and use this data internally. The recent QEN articles on supercap proliferation and mineral compression, for example, were far too detailed to think otherwise. The fact that they can use this data for QENs is a bonus, not the sum of what this data is being used for.
    I'd surmise (again, assuming incompetence before malice) that the process of preparing it for publishing to the community was the bit they couldn't keep up with, rather than the straight analysis.

  7. #47
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by killfalcon View Post
    I'd surmise (again, assuming incompetence before malice) that the process of preparing it for publishing to the community was the bit they couldn't keep up with, rather than the straight analysis.
    It's not exactly rocket science a publication like that. If they had issues, they could have examined those and learned from them to streamline the process. Find dependancies, deal with those or buffer against those. Etc. This aside of planning and prioritising, obviously. Yeah, if it would have been yet another case of falling prey to the lobby syndrome, that would not have been possible no. But that is still no excuse. Only reason.

    On a personal note, while I do appreciate CCP's waryness of sensitivity of data on a principle level, I do think that they can deal with that. Properly. I've never seen the practice of making observations or drawing conclusions the way the QEN did as more than an open door to competing with its userbase as it is the kind of information flow that directly stimulates user behaviour into essentially the same as what CCP replicated with the QEN. That's wasteful.

    The QEN could have been a platform, at minimum a communicative hub. But for whatever reason, CCP chose not to pursue that angle. Probably good reasons, I'm just looking at this from a viewpoint of commercial application. Those 4 indexes, are the equivalent of "STFU". It's not "raw data". There may very well be an honest and well thought through intention behind these changes, but again the execution is lacking.

    Look, this kind of devblog appeals to a very selective yet broad element of the EVE userbase. It goes across the typical niches of user groups, and even transcends the typical personas. CCP knows that there are elements of sensitivity involved. I honestly wonder why for a devblog like this (or ANY devblog really) they don't put some heads together ahead of time, work out tackling feedback and running responses, for set targets or objectives, who covers what timespan, when and how is handover for monitoring by CM, etc. The whole point is communication, and it is a two way street. With benefits to all sides. No devblog should go without a visible effort in that regard. And not selectively. Come on. CCP is fearless, practices transparancy, etc. etc. etc. And that is exactly what has paid off in the past. So why run away from that which pays off?
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by killfalcon View Post
    I'd surmise (again, assuming incompetence before malice) that the process of preparing it for publishing to the community was the bit they couldn't keep up with, rather than the straight analysis.
    I've done more complicated work as homework for school. Just saying.

  9. #49
    Donor Mynxee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by killfalcon View Post
    I'd surmise (again, assuming incompetence before malice) that the process of preparing it for publishing to the community was the bit they couldn't keep up with, rather than the straight analysis.
    It was kind of amusing that when I was in Reyk both times, last year, they had stacks of four-color printed QENs lying around. I wonder how much those cost to have published. Seemed like a waste of money.

    With the demise of the QEN and Dr E's comment about providing players with raw data, it crossed my mind to wonder if it would be considered "game affecting" if they charged for "in depth analysis" as a convenience service, delivered to your CQ market screen. Would be hilariously ironic if they set it up as an in-game subscription sorta like they do auto-pay of rents for corp offices.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mynxee View Post
    It was kind of amusing that when I was in Reyk both times, last year, they had stacks of four-color printed QENs lying around. I wonder how much those cost to have published. Seemed like a waste of money.
    Where? Restrooms?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mynxee View Post
    With the demise of the QEN and Dr E's comment about providing players with raw data, it crossed my mind to wonder if it would be considered "game affecting" if they charged for "in depth analysis" as a convenience service, delivered to your CQ market screen. Would be hilariously ironic if they set it up as an in-game subscription sorta like they do auto-pay of rents for corp offices.
    *whimper*

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mynxee View Post
    With the demise of the QEN and Dr E's comment about providing players with raw data, it crossed my mind to wonder if it would be considered "game affecting" if they charged for "in depth analysis" as a convenience service, delivered to your CQ market screen. Would be hilariously ironic if they set it up as an in-game subscription sorta like they do auto-pay of rents for corp offices.
    Goddess... Sometimes you really have to be grateful, that CCP isn't as imaginative as it's player-base (and also hope, that none of the actual people-in-charge are reading here).

  12. #52
    Donor Mynxee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madner Kami View Post
    Goddess... Sometimes you really have to be grateful, that CCP isn't as imaginative as it's player-base (and also hope, that none of the actual people-in-charge are reading here).
    I can't believe it wouldn't have crossed their minds. Data--or rather, INFORMATION-- is a valuable asset in any business, real or virtual.
    Last edited by Mynxee; July 25 2011 at 11:18:26 PM. Reason: clarification, need more wine enlightenment to express thoughts properly.

  13. #53

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    To those that significantly buys into the free market idea, macroeconomic outcomes are determined by collective participant behavior that is very difficult to alter. In addition, I do not apply moral principles of "ought to be" to economics, certainly not internet spaceship economics where no one starves because of it and value is from virtual scarcity.

    For example, the low level of mineral "explosions" relative to mineral generation: this is just another case of player's desire to accumulate wealth, as hangers gets bigger with more ships, not less, over time. If this wasn't the case, they would either stop paying miners altogether thus stopping mineral production, or explode ever more ships with more minerals like carriers and supers.

    Imagine one day you spent so much time in jita that you forgot this is a spaceship game. All you'd see is item-id, various trade volumes, blueprint conversion ratio, supply and demand, market orders and freighter routes. From those eyes whatever weighting of anything is meaningless, and it doesn't matter if people pvp in rifters of avatars, and if clothing cost more then dreadnoughts whatever, they are just a item-id. This is actually the effective way to go about the markets, since preformed prejudice from spaceships generates bad intuitions, like drake bpo must be worth it because everyone flies them.

    Of course, for spaceships players, whether you fly rifters or nyx, whether you spend time shooting for technetium or macrominers in highsec what not have huge effect on your gameplay. As such, I consider the only thing that can be broken is spaceships, since it doesn't make much difference to the spreadsheet people. The economy can cause the spaceships to be broken, but that is about it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane
    The invisible hand is all well and good in a self-correcting market like in the real world. Where there are actual constraints, and actual alternatives.
    I laugh at you.

    In the real world, people starve, nations go bankrupt and spend decades in the shitter, industries collapse, life savings are wiped out in weeks, real violence and massive political radicalism occurs as by product of lifelong unemployment. There is nothing particularly stable about the markets (or any other social structure) in the real world, unless you have the backing of utterly insane economic, political and military power that can twist the arms of everyone if you mess up. If you have not seen the hyperinflation of 10^6 per month (price double per day), if you have not seen entire national economies collapse because of combined power of short sellers, if you have not seen appalling conditions that triggered Marx, if you have not seen the bubbles orders of magnitude over priced and the violent explosion the pop....... In the real world, there is no visible god trying to fix it for the betterment of anything, and the only real constraint is death, the laws of physics and the will of man.

    If games are suppose to be a stimulation of things that is too dangerous in real life, the Eve economy is not up to par, it is not remotely broken enough. There is not enough chaos, violence and nonsense.

    -------
    Quote Originally Posted by Virtuozzo
    CCP knows that there are elements of sensitivity involved. I honestly wonder why for a devblog like this (or ANY devblog really) they don't put some heads together ahead of time, work out tackling feedback and running responses, for set targets or objectives, who covers what timespan, when and how is handover for monitoring by CM, etc.
    Great mystery indeed.....
    Last edited by Shin_getter; July 25 2011 at 11:20:39 PM.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mynxee View Post
    it crossed my mind to wonder if it would be considered "game affecting" if they charged for "in depth analysis" as a convenience service, delivered to your CQ market screen. Would be hilariously ironic if they set it up as an in-game subscription sorta like they do auto-pay of rents for corp offices.
    You think you're funny, but you're not not not. :P
    Ripard Teg (among others)... what's our new alliance called again?
    I was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer, to good effect. Or at least, that's what most of EVE believes.

  15. #55
    Donor Mynxee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    You think you're funny, but you're not not not. :P
    Not tryin to be funny, just being my usual cynical, jaded self while pondering what the next WTF Moment from those crazy Vikings might be.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mynxee View Post
    Not tryin to be funny, just being my usual cynical, jaded self while pondering what the next WTF Moment from those crazy Vikings might be.
    I would have thought you would have had a bigger insight to this than most of us..
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  17. #57
    Donor Mynxee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    I would have thought you would have had a bigger insight to this than most of us..
    After the events of the last couple of months, I think it is safe to say my experience with them that might lend any insight is woefully outdated. But on the bright side, my expectations now know no bounds. In any direction.

  18. #58

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    Holy fuck the wall-o-text faggots in this thread are making this difficult.

    Tl;dr the in-depth 50 page quarterly reports that gave a reasonably accurate detailing of the EVE market are now being replaced with a graph and 3 numbers?

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mynxee View Post
    After the events of the last couple of months, I think it is safe to say my experience with them that might lend any insight is woefully outdated. But on the bright side, my expectations now know no bounds. In any direction.
    You should come an play PO.. Its like eve was when the devs were full of ideas and love for the game.

    I'm not even mad about them introducing MT in the for they say they will because firstly its what people have asked for (painting the bots any damn colour they want) and secondly it was apparently written in to the engine from the start so its next to no work.

    They have all of my trust right now because they aren't CCP.
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  20. #60
    Jester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mynxee View Post
    Not tryin to be funny, just being my usual cynical, jaded self while pondering what the next WTF Moment from those crazy Vikings might be.
    Hee. Just giving you a hard time.
    Ripard Teg (among others)... what's our new alliance called again?
    I was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer, to good effect. Or at least, that's what most of EVE believes.

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