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Thread: (UK EURO THREAD) UK POLITICS MK2

  1. #11461

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    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    So the shift from old labour (left of the party), to the centre (new labour, old labour with aspects of Thatcherism/the right thrown in) didn’t win elections?
    And what was the result of that? Where was your lasting power?

    Oh, wait...

    Do you really only manage to think in the absolute shortest term?

  2. #11462
    Djan Seriy Anaplian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    So the shift from old labour (left of the party), to the centre (new labour, old labour with aspects of Thatcherism/the right thrown in) didn’t win elections?
    And what was the result of that? Where was your lasting power?

    Oh, wait...

    Do you really only manage to think in the absolute shortest term?
    The only significant Labour government in the post-war era, 13 years, is short term? Are you a fucking idiot?

  3. #11463
    Movember 2012 Zekk Pacus's Avatar
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    As you are so fond of saying, Djan, it's a bit more complicated than that.

    For starters, in 1992 we had Black Wednesday. The Tory reputation of being good with the economy shattered for a generation, and their polling collapsed to 29% immediately after. That was followed up by the national media subtly shifting its approach to the Tories and bringing to light several scandals that would have gone un-noticed under a friendlier media. Their polling never recovered and the nation expected John Smith to become prime minister in 1997. And then he up and died - how dare he - and Blair took over.

    The key about Blair isn't that he was a centrist. The key is that he was centrist whilst still explaining what the key differences between his Labour Party and the Conservatives were. Where his policies aligned with Tory ideology he was careful to manage the messaging incredibly well. Where there was a clear difference he hammered that home. The country wanted a clear break from the Conservatives and they got one, because Blair's key message was "we are a clear break and we will do things differently".

    2010 was probably always going to be a loss. It happens. But in 2015? The messaging coming from Labour was confused and did not offer a clear break. The party's policies were either unclear, or where they were clear they were perceived as being too similar to Tory policy. And then instead of learning from that, three of the four leadership candidates wanted to do the same thing. They let the Tories lead them by the nose on immigration, benefits and austerity. And meantime there was one leadership candidate - who was privately happy with the idea of getting 15-20% of the vote - who was offering a clear break.

    That's what needs to be learnt and STILL hasn't been. If you're going to campaign on centrism, that's fine. But you NEED to have some clear red lines and you NEED to make sure the electorate understand where you're different.
    'I'm pro life. I'm a non-smoker. I'm a pro-life non-smoker. WOO, Let the party begin!'

  4. #11464
    Djan Seriy Anaplian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    As you are so fond of saying, Djan, it's a bit more complicated than that.

    For starters, in 1992 we had Black Wednesday. The Tory reputation of being good with the economy shattered for a generation, and their polling collapsed to 29% immediately after. That was followed up by the national media subtly shifting its approach to the Tories and bringing to light several scandals that would have gone un-noticed under a friendlier media. Their polling never recovered and the nation expected John Smith to become prime minister in 1997. And then he up and died - how dare he - and Blair took over.

    The key about Blair isn't that he was a centrist. The key is that he was centrist whilst still explaining what the key differences between his Labour Party and the Conservatives were. Where his policies aligned with Tory ideology he was careful to manage the messaging incredibly well. Where there was a clear difference he hammered that home. The country wanted a clear break from the Conservatives and they got one, because Blair's key message was "we are a clear break and we will do things differently".

    2010 was probably always going to be a loss. It happens. But in 2015? The messaging coming from Labour was confused and did not offer a clear break. The party's policies were either unclear, or where they were clear they were perceived as being too similar to Tory policy. And then instead of learning from that, three of the four leadership candidates wanted to do the same thing. They let the Tories lead them by the nose on immigration, benefits and austerity. And meantime there was one leadership candidate - who was privately happy with the idea of getting 15-20% of the vote - who was offering a clear break.

    That's what needs to be learnt and STILL hasn't been. If you're going to campaign on centrism, that's fine. But you NEED to have some clear red lines and you NEED to make sure the electorate understand where you're different.
    New Labour was a tack to the centre, whatever the historical context. Blair rejected the idea of class conflict (something Corbyn fucking loves); he flirted with neoliberalism by rejecting statism and refusing to renationalise strategic industries; and he de-emphasised collectivism. All of that is a strong tack to the centre, particularly the latter point.

    Brits don't do collective struggle, they never have and the electoral data doesn't lie. Whether you see the alternative as pure centrism or centre-labour is beside the point; the point is old labour values do not appeal to people in their totality.

  5. #11465
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    Brits aren't allowed to do collective struggle. Every aspect of the establishment is in place to make it as difficult as possible for political and economic justice to apply to everyone equally. Progressive left wing policies poll consistently above 50%. British society has been organised in a way which actively preserves the class interests of the wealthy and enables them to further both political and economic influence at the expense of everyone else.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  6. #11466

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    No one is going to talk about what the future holds for an EU less UK?

    https://www.ft.com/content/a70f9506-...2-9ddbdc86190d

    TLDR Limp Boris gets a stern talking to by Trump, totally not a sign of things to come.

    Edit: Wasn't paywalled for me. Regardless.
    https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...nson-overblown
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ted-phone-call
    https://fortune.com/2020/02/07/trump...on-huawei-ban/
    Last edited by Spartan Dax; February 9 2020 at 01:58:02 PM.

  7. #11467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan Dax View Post
    No one is going to talk about what the future holds for an EU less UK?

    https://www.ft.com/content/a70f9506-...2-9ddbdc86190d

    TLDR Limp Boris gets a stern talking to by Trump, totally not a sign of things to come.
    Paywalled.
    Headline is about Trump losing his shit though. v0v

  8. #11468

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Brits aren't allowed to do collective struggle. Every aspect of the establishment is in place to make it as difficult as possible for political and economic justice to apply to everyone equally. Progressive left wing policies poll consistently above 50%. British society has been organised in a way which actively preserves the class interests of the wealthy and enables them to further both political and economic influence at the expense of everyone else.
    One wonders why Djan would be so fond of it.

    :thonk:

  9. #11469
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    I don't think anyone in the Labour party is wanting to cling onto Corbyn though and branding anything mildly left wing as corbynism and therefore doomed to failure is a right wing strawman.

    For someone whinging about tankies all the time you seem incredibly keen on purges.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  10. #11470

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    Two members of Starmer's team have been reported to the ICO for database scraping. They in turn are alleging dirty tricks, saying they only did it to see if RLB's team were doing it.

  11. #11471

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodj Blake View Post
    Two members of Starmer's team have been reported to the ICO for database scraping. They in turn are alleging dirty tricks, saying they only did it to see if RLB's team were doing it.
    What Rodj is leaving out is that there is absolutely no evidence of this and that it was immediately leaked to the BBC and simul-posted to both The Canary and Skwawkbox.

    He's also missing out the bit where RLB has actually breached the terms of use for the database and rightly apologised for doing so - which is what started this mess.

    Whether the party has reported itself over these apparent multiple data breaches has, of course, gone unreported, but one would hope they would comply with that basic legal obligation.

  12. #11472
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post

    What Rodj is leaving out is that there is absolutely no evidence of this and that it was immediately leaked to the BBC and simul-posted to both The Canary and Skwawkbox.
    Ah so the Labour party is ready to start playing the access journalism game already! Goodie.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  13. #11473

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post

    What Rodj is leaving out is that there is absolutely no evidence of this and that it was immediately leaked to the BBC and simul-posted to both The Canary and Skwawkbox.
    Ah so the Labour party is ready to start playing the access journalism game already! Goodie.
    It is a short step from here to real power comrade!
    Please don't teach me what to do with my pc.

  14. #11474

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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodj Blake View Post
    Two members of Starmer's team have been reported to the ICO for database scraping. They in turn are alleging dirty tricks, saying they only did it to see if RLB's team were doing it.
    What Rodj is leaving out is that there is absolutely no evidence of this and that it was immediately leaked to the BBC and simul-posted to both The Canary and Skwawkbox.

    He's also missing out the bit where RLB has actually breached the terms of use for the database and rightly apologised for doing so - which is what started this mess.

    Whether the party has reported itself over these apparent multiple data breaches has, of course, gone unreported, but one would hope they would comply with that basic legal obligation.
    You got a link to RLB apologising? Because The Grauniad are saying that "it is understood Labour officials do not believe there is evidence Long-Bailey’s team breached any rules."

  15. #11475
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    Tankie seems to be Barth's new word of the week. It is almost as irritating as when he learned the phrase 'ideological purity'.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  16. #11476

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodj Blake View Post
    You got a link to RLB apologising? Because The Grauniad are saying that "it is understood Labour officials do not believe there is evidence Long-Bailey’s team breached any rules."
    Those Labour officials would be talking complete shit, because RLB's team's overzealous use of Labour party assets led to the whole Dialogue system being taken offline to avoid a gdpr clusterfuck for the party [which it won't - it'll still need to be disclosed to the ico].

    As for RLB's apology, I either imagined reading it or it has been removed from the article I was sure I read it in. The passage in question has now changed to admitting the breach happened, but that the motive was innocent.

    Innocent motive is notably not a justification for personal data use under GDPR.

  17. #11477
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    Shocked to see Barth responding to posts about GDPR and data misuse after last weeks spectacular demonstration of subject knowledge
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  18. #11478
    Djan Seriy Anaplian's Avatar
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    Totes hilaire

  19. #11479

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Shocked to see Barth responding to posts about GDPR and data misuse after last weeks spectacular demonstration of subject knowledge
    Barth is always ready with a wall of text for anything

  20. #11480

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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodj Blake View Post
    You got a link to RLB apologising? Because The Grauniad are saying that "it is understood Labour officials do not believe there is evidence Long-Bailey’s team breached any rules."
    Those Labour officials would be talking complete shit, because RLB's team's overzealous use of Labour party assets led to the whole Dialogue system being taken offline to avoid a gdpr clusterfuck for the party [which it won't - it'll still need to be disclosed to the ico].

    As for RLB's apology, I either imagined reading it or it has been removed from the article I was sure I read it in. The passage in question has now changed to admitting the breach happened, but that the motive was innocent.

    Innocent motive is notably not a justification for personal data use under GDPR.
    Well if that's the case I'm sure that at least one of the half million or so people whose details were affected will be lodging a complaint with the ICO any time now.

    Or indeed, if what you say is true then the ICO will be involving themselves in the matter anyway as Labour will already have passed the deadline for 'fessing up.
    Last edited by Rodj Blake; February 10 2020 at 07:08:37 PM.

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