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Thread: (UK EURO THREAD) UK POLITICS MK2

  1. #6181
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    For ten points, Barth, why has the subject of the European Union dominated British politics for 40 years?
    It hasn't. In fact, it's ludicrous to claim otherwise. It was only of any interest to a tiny minority of MPs, mostly Tory, though some Labour dinosaurs held a grudge as well.

    For at least 90% of those four decades you mention, the UK's EU membership wasn't even a topic of discussion among UK politicians.
    It's been of interest to a large majority of Tory MPs, because the party has been tearing its guts out over Europe for a generation.
    Not really. Even now, actual Tory Brexiteers in the house of commons number, what? 30 to 50? If generous. The house of commons holds 650 seats, 313 of which are Tory. So that's 10 to 20% of die-hard Tories. Please ...

    OK, you now got a number of ambitious hangers-on and late-converts. Because they want to lead the party, and now need to be Brexiteers to do so, but those don't count. They certainly haven't been tearing the party apart over Europe for a generation or 40 years.

    In reality, before the run up to Cameron caving to his party's fear of UKIP there was hardly a murmur even amongst the Tories about the UK's membership of the EU. Before that Brexiteer talk was all but ignored within the party. Club bore stuff, rolling eyes, etc. The last outbreak was with Major over the Maastricht treaty, and that was decades ago. And even then they weren't advocating leaving the EU.

    This whole narrative about the Tories having been at their throats about leaving the EU is pure bollocks. The Brexit thing is a recent outbreak from what was a near dormant disease. I hope it's fatal, but let's not make more if it than it is. 40 years of infighting is plain ludicrous.
    Yeah the thing is that the tories have needed the grrrEU faction for a majority since Thatcher's 3rd term.
    Yes, but now you're moving the goal posts.

    The assertion was made that the Tories have been tearing each other's throat out over membership of the EU for the last 40 years.

    That's demonstrably untrue.

    Just take Thatcher passionately wanting to join the common market. Backed by the vast majority of the Tory party. Major getting ratification of Maastricht through, because the vast majority of the Tory MPs voting for him (the 'bastards' were practically exiled after that). Even in the run up to Cameron's Brexit fiasco, the vast majority of the Tory MPs supported him, because they thought he would pull it off (as with the Scots), and that that would cover the Tory party's right flank.

    Yes, the Tories used the EU as a scapegoat to avoid scrutiny over what they have been up to. But until Cameron lit a fire under Brexit with his idiotic referendum, the Tory party simply wasn't tearing itself apart over membership of the EU. That just never happened.

    The UK leaving the EU was the fevered topic of a handful of malcontents. And they were generally ignored by the party at large for the most part. Only when a bunch of ambitious morons saw an opportunity for themselves did the Tory party start to tear itself apart over Brexit.

    I think the record is pretty clear. And I really think there's no need to create a false narrative, or justification after the fact (because that is what it is, really, for these newfound Brexiteers, a form of 'it was always thus') on this. However much it might make you feel good (or, realistically, however many newspapers it may sell).

    The history of what happened is bad enough as it is ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  2. #6182

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    For ten points, Barth, why has the subject of the European Union dominated British politics for 40 years?
    It hasn't. In fact, it's ludicrous to claim otherwise. It was only of any interest to a tiny minority of MPs, mostly Tory, though some Labour dinosaurs held a grudge as well.

    For at least 90% of those four decades you mention, the UK's EU membership wasn't even a topic of discussion among UK politicians.
    It's been of interest to a large majority of Tory MPs, because the party has been tearing its guts out over Europe for a generation.
    Not really. Even now, actual Tory Brexiteers in the house of commons number, what? 30 to 50? If generous. The house of commons holds 650 seats, 313 of which are Tory. So that's 10 to 20% of die-hard Tories. Please ...

    OK, you now got a number of ambitious hangers-on and late-converts. Because they want to lead the party, and now need to be Brexiteers to do so, but those don't count. They certainly haven't been tearing the party apart over Europe for a generation or 40 years.

    In reality, before the run up to Cameron caving to his party's fear of UKIP there was hardly a murmur even amongst the Tories about the UK's membership of the EU. Before that Brexiteer talk was all but ignored within the party. Club bore stuff, rolling eyes, etc. The last outbreak was with Major over the Maastricht treaty, and that was decades ago. And even then they weren't advocating leaving the EU.

    This whole narrative about the Tories having been at their throats about leaving the EU is pure bollocks. The Brexit thing is a recent outbreak from what was a near dormant disease. I hope it's fatal, but let's not make more if it than it is. 40 years of infighting is plain ludicrous.
    Yeah the thing is that the tories have needed the grrrEU faction for a majority since Thatcher's 3rd term.
    Yes, but now you're moving the goal posts.

    The assertion was made that the Tories have been tearing each other's throat out over membership of the EU for the last 40 years.

    That's demonstrably untrue.

    Just take Thatcher passionately wanting to join the common market. Backed by the vast majority of the Tory party. Major getting ratification of Maastricht through, because the vast majority of the Tory MPs voting for him (the 'bastards' were practically exiled after that). Even in the run up to Cameron's Brexit fiasco, the vast majority of the Tory MPs supported him, because they thought he would pull it off (as with the Scots), and that that would cover the Tory party's right flank.

    Yes, the Tories used the EU as a scapegoat to avoid scrutiny over what they have been up to. But until Cameron lit a fire under Brexit with his idiotic referendum, the Tory party simply wasn't tearing itself apart over membership of the EU. That just never happened.

    The UK leaving the EU was the fevered topic of a handful of malcontents. And they were generally ignored by the party at large for the most part. Only when a bunch of ambitious morons saw an opportunity for themselves did the Tory party start to tear itself apart over Brexit.

    I think the record is pretty clear. And I really think there's no need to create a false narrative, or justification after the fact (because that is what it is, really, for these newfound Brexiteers, a form of 'it was always thus') on this. However much it might make you feel good (or, realistically, however many newspapers it may sell).

    The history of what happened is bad enough as it is ...
    It may not be 40 years ago (more like 30) but I distinctly remember open warfare in Thatcher's cabinet when she appointed Alan Walters as her personal economic advisor and he disagreed with Big Nige on whether or not we should be in the ERM.

    Also: Geoffrey "Dead Sheep" Howe

  3. #6183
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcanis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    For ten points, Barth, why has the subject of the European Union dominated British politics for 40 years?
    It hasn't. In fact, it's ludicrous to claim otherwise. It was only of any interest to a tiny minority of MPs, mostly Tory, though some Labour dinosaurs held a grudge as well.

    For at least 90% of those four decades you mention, the UK's EU membership wasn't even a topic of discussion among UK politicians.
    It's been of interest to a large majority of Tory MPs, because the party has been tearing its guts out over Europe for a generation.
    Not really. Even now, actual Tory Brexiteers in the house of commons number, what? 30 to 50? If generous. The house of commons holds 650 seats, 313 of which are Tory. So that's 10 to 20% of die-hard Tories. Please ...

    OK, you now got a number of ambitious hangers-on and late-converts. Because they want to lead the party, and now need to be Brexiteers to do so, but those don't count. They certainly haven't been tearing the party apart over Europe for a generation or 40 years.

    In reality, before the run up to Cameron caving to his party's fear of UKIP there was hardly a murmur even amongst the Tories about the UK's membership of the EU. Before that Brexiteer talk was all but ignored within the party. Club bore stuff, rolling eyes, etc. The last outbreak was with Major over the Maastricht treaty, and that was decades ago. And even then they weren't advocating leaving the EU.

    This whole narrative about the Tories having been at their throats about leaving the EU is pure bollocks. The Brexit thing is a recent outbreak from what was a near dormant disease. I hope it's fatal, but let's not make more if it than it is. 40 years of infighting is plain ludicrous.
    Yeah the thing is that the tories have needed the grrrEU faction for a majority since Thatcher's 3rd term.
    Yes, but now you're moving the goal posts.

    The assertion was made that the Tories have been tearing each other's throat out over membership of the EU for the last 40 years.

    That's demonstrably untrue.

    Just take Thatcher passionately wanting to join the common market. Backed by the vast majority of the Tory party. Major getting ratification of Maastricht through, because the vast majority of the Tory MPs voting for him (the 'bastards' were practically exiled after that). Even in the run up to Cameron's Brexit fiasco, the vast majority of the Tory MPs supported him, because they thought he would pull it off (as with the Scots), and that that would cover the Tory party's right flank.

    Yes, the Tories used the EU as a scapegoat to avoid scrutiny over what they have been up to. But until Cameron lit a fire under Brexit with his idiotic referendum, the Tory party simply wasn't tearing itself apart over membership of the EU. That just never happened.

    The UK leaving the EU was the fevered topic of a handful of malcontents. And they were generally ignored by the party at large for the most part. Only when a bunch of ambitious morons saw an opportunity for themselves did the Tory party start to tear itself apart over Brexit.

    I think the record is pretty clear. And I really think there's no need to create a false narrative, or justification after the fact (because that is what it is, really, for these newfound Brexiteers, a form of 'it was always thus') on this. However much it might make you feel good (or, realistically, however many newspapers it may sell).

    The history of what happened is bad enough as it is ...
    Well more like the last 25 years. You may recall the Major administration being crippled by 'The Bastards'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
    I love Malcanis!

  4. #6184

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    I think the record is pretty clear. And I really think there's no need to create a false narrative, or justification after the fact (because that is what it is, really, for these newfound Brexiteers, a form of 'it was always thus') on this. However much it might make you feel good (or, realistically, however many newspapers it may sell).

    The history of what happened is bad enough as it is ...
    Again, what are you on about, the constant bitching about the EU and people jumping at each other's political throats over it has been a staple for ages.

  5. #6185
    Movember 2012 Zekk Pacus's Avatar
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    Perhaps it's fairer to say "it's dominated Tory discourse for the last 25 years". Because every single major Tory crisis seems to be about the EU, since they always seem to need the ERG or whatever they were called back in the day in order to actually form a government.
    'I'm pro life. I'm a non-smoker. I'm a pro-life non-smoker. WOO, Let the party begin!'

  6. #6186
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    Perhaps it's fairer to say "it's dominated Tory discourse for the last 25 years". Because every single major Tory crisis seems to be about the EU, since they always seem to need the ERG or whatever they were called back in the day in order to actually form a government.
    That's closer, and on the surface, that may be what it has looked like at times, but even that isn't really true. Leaving the EU has not dominated Tory discourse, not in the last 25, or 30, or 40 years.

    I don't want to sound like the go-to person for the Tory party (loath them with a passion in fact), but, really, all this EU talk was always just rhetoric for the Tory grandees to pull out of the closet when they wanted to climb up the greasy poll. There is, for the vast majority within the Tory party, very little ideology behind it all. The die-hard actually anti-EU faction is tiny. Always was.

    Being a big tent party (well, used to), you have your centre-right, small 'c' conservative faction (call them neocons, if you're from the US), and you have your right wing, nationalistic, let's whip the poor, big 'C' conservative faction. And plenty of party people in between. Both/all factions have their little hobby horse ideas, and for a tiny group it's the EU. They hate it, in the same way as the hard-left in Labour hate it, just for different reasons. For them it is about 'sovereignty', 'Britannia Rules the Waves', and 'The sun never sets', and more of this reactionary tripe.

    How to be the 'leader' of such a party? Well, if you're in power, or 'in the picture', and you want to keep it that way, you pay lip-service to this nonsense. Mostly to keep that portion of the natives happy and on side. It's good for a nationalist party to sound nationalist from time to time. You don't actually lift a finger to do anything about it, but you damn well make sure to throw them a rhetorical bone from time to time. It riles up the swivel-eyed loons, you're the man, and then you move on.

    But what if you're not in power, or 'in the picture' but want more? Well, basically the same thing, only you use it as a wedge issue. Or, if you're in dire straights, as a get out of jail card. It's not like you're actually want to do anything about it either, but it works equally well to get you up one more rung on the ladder, or as an excuse to find a warm welcome on the backbenches.

    And that's how you saw it used with Thatcher, Major, and later with Cameron as well. They, and various others, have used nationalist/anti-EU/anti-foreigner rhetoric for a variety of reasons. And almost always, without ever having any intention of actually following through with any of that. Just to bring down a government, a PM, etc. A bit of one-upmanship on the anti-EU rhetoric can do wonders sometimes.

    So yes, until 2016, there has been a bit of hot air about the EU, and membership of the EU, etc. within the Tory party. But for almost everyone, and for the vast majority of the time in the last 25, 30, 40 years, it was just that: hot air. A side show. A bit of a balancing act you'd have to do to get ahead, a bit of singing for the choir you had to do. Nothing more.

    Why do you think the Tories, as a party, didn't have a single clue what to do, once they got their Brexit out of the referendum? Not a single clue on the what, how, or when of it all. On all sides of the big tent! The tiny anti-EU faction was as clueless as everyone else!

    Because that is all it ever was: hot air. As a party, they never had any intention of actually following through with anything like it. Never spend any time thinking about it even. The emperor had no clothes, and since, all sorts of opportunists within the Party (who had ever really heard about Rees-Mogg before 2016?) have jumped into the vacuum left to claim some shit after the fact. But it's all bullshit. Never happened.

    So the party tearing itself apart of what was, all this time, really, a non-issue? I don't think so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  7. #6187
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    Well it doesn't matter, because they're sure as shit tearing themselves apart now, and have been since the referendum campaign started.

    And the rest of the country has to suffer while they have their little War Of The Roses. At least Labour had the consideration to go through this phase while they were in opposition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
    I love Malcanis!

  8. #6188

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    When you have made enough money to be set for life doing more of the thing that gets "fans" sending death threats might not be so interesting anymore, just saying.

  9. #6189

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    A hundred times more people were disenfranchised by the Tory Party's 'Papers Please' voter ID trial than there were electoral offences in the last round of local elections. If we discount electoral offences where no further action was deemed necessary, this number climbs to eight hundred times. Because there was 1.

  10. #6190

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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    A hundred times more people were disenfranchised by the Tory Party's 'Papers Please' voter ID trial than there were electoral offences in the last round of local elections. If we discount electoral offences where no further action was deemed necessary, this number climbs to eight hundred times. Because there was 1.
    Working as intended.

  11. #6191
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    Chukka is now polling between 1% and 2% lmao.

    I feel sorry for a few of those who followed him, I imagine they'll fair much worse than he will with their careers now. He's basically purpose built for the think-tank merry go round.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  12. #6192

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    ChUK was a great idea, until someone, in shockingly unpredictable scenes, asked them all whether they agreed on austerity. You can't form a party of people who fundamentally disagree with each other on almost everything. That's why farage is so dangerous. He's not a single issue politician. He's about as extreme a right winger as you could get. Sell the hospitals, close the schools, fuck the poor and everything that goes with it.

  13. #6193
    Crystalline Entity's Avatar
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    I think the issue with the Chukups is they are basically the same as the LibDems fundamentally
    "I think we could all do with sitting back a bit and detaching ourselves from the situation to really think about how these issues reflect on our future and how we discuss them here and be a bit less aggressive or defensive because everyone has a complicated set of circumstances that has led the to place importance on particular issues and it doesn't meany any of them is less valid, we just need to look at the broader picture"

    Smuggo - Brexit Thread

  14. #6194

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystalline Entity View Post
    I think the issue with the Chukups is they are basically the same as the LibDems fundamentally
    More authoritarian though.

  15. #6195
    Movember 2012 Zekk Pacus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystalline Entity View Post
    I think the issue with the Chukups is they are basically the same as the LibDems fundamentally
    I know the phrase echo chamber is overused and thrown about a lot, but ChUK is what happens when you live in one.

    There's a certain subsection of ex-Labour voters who believe that Labour has moved too far to the left and is no longer 'electable' and that the British political landscape is crying out for a centre-left, economically conservative socially liberal party. There's a core of these sort of people who are well connected in the media and the other chattering classes and they've believed their own hype and column inches instead of polling which would show you that while there is a gap in British politics, it's very much not for SDP 2 policies boogaloo.
    'I'm pro life. I'm a non-smoker. I'm a pro-life non-smoker. WOO, Let the party begin!'

  16. #6196

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    1922 Committee to release a statement on May's future very shortly.

  17. #6197
    SteeleResolve's Avatar
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    And BJ confirmed he's running for leadership.

  18. #6198
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Here come the dark times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  19. #6199
    Sandzibar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Here come the dark times.
    I thought we were already there...

  20. #6200

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    1922 statement:



    The prime minister is determined to secure our departure from the European Union and is devoting her efforts to securing the 2nd reading of the withdrawal agreement bill in the week commencing 3rd June 2019 and the passage of that bill and the consequent departure of the United Kingdom from the European Union by the summer.

    We have agreed that she and I will meet following the 2nd reading of the bill to agree a timetable for the election of a new leader of the Conservative and Unionist party.

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