(UK EURO THREAD) UK POLITICS MK2

[August]

Industrialization in the west occurred in the framework of capitalism, so of course you can attribute its successes to capitalism as well. It seems to me you're sort of trying to have your cake and eat it too, because later on, you attribute the extinction-level event to capitalism, but couldn't you attribute that to industrialization? After all, it's the industrialization process that enables the mass-stripping of Earth's resources and the Soviets did it as well.

whataboutism is not a argument.

China is doing a markedly better job of climate adaptation than the "liberal democracies" of the west, not that they're doing enough for it to meaningfully matter.

Sure, you can say the first 2-3 generations of capitalism was shit. I don't really care whether that's true or not, to be honest, because we're in the 15th generation of capitalism and many aspects have dramatically changed since first 2-3.

and more have not, the shit aspects have not gone away and there is no indication they will.

Yet you're so stuck with defining capitalism by its earliest iteration. You constantly do that. It's like declaring that computers are forever shit because the old IBM computers that took up a whole room sucked ass when, bro, we're on iphone 12 now.

literal "poor people aren't poor, they have fridges now!" tier argumentation.

Now, regarding quality of life, it is absolutely true that according to contemporary western metrics, which you value too, we have the highest quality of life ever. True, there are plenty of metrics by which our quality of life sucks. If, like earlier iterations of Western societies, you prioritize a high percentage of marriage in the population, longevity of marriages, minimization of abortions, minimization of drug use, etc. then yeah our quality of life today sucks. But I know you don't give a shit about that so wtf are you talking about.

so your idea of a "good life" is doubling down on conservative family values as the metrics to measure by. and since you know i find those pointless actively oppresive, i clearly have no reason to to be unhappy ?

okay, so did you have a point, or what ? or was it just a exercise in this ?

It's very simple. List all the things you really consider important. Compare with before capitalism. Or with the Soviets, or with extant non-capitalistic societies like Iran, North Korea, the aboriginals, whoever you like -- but it has to have actually existed and for a reasonable amount of time. Almost everything on your list will come out ahead in capitalistic societies.

I'm not sure where you got the doubling down thing from. You seem to have missed my point. You know that list of things you consider really important? My point was that, not all lists will have capitalistic societies coming out ahead. There are millions of people on whose lists capitalistic society measures out very poorly. But don't kid yourself, you're a westerner. I know it will come out ahead on your list.

Your image is also very ironic. The person in your image saying "we should improve society somewhat" is really Lallante. You are the one in the well, except perhaps you would say something more like "but today's society is horrible, shame on you for even daring to participate!"

[depili]

It only cost us our future.

[NoirAvlaa]

africa is doing very well since capitalism

[Rodj Blake]

China is doing a markedly better job of climate adaptation than the "liberal democracies" of the west

L O L

Yeah, that's a scary graph - but it needs to be put in the context of China's per capita carbon emissions being relatively low and also the fact that a non-trivial portion of that power is being used to make stuff for the West.

[Lucas Quaan]

Low per capita rates doesn't sound as good when you are also populous enough that it adds up to a quarter of total global emissions.

[Rodj Blake]

Anyone fancy a swim?

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/po...rivers-297784/

"The Tories have rejected efforts to place a legal duty on water companies to reduce raw sewage discharges into rivers."

[evil edna]

Simping for chinas emissions

[Lancehot]

Simping for chinas emissions

Don't kink shame

[Lallante]

africa is doing very well since capitalism

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ca-historical/


I get that its trendy to hate capitalism but in this instance you can't be both trendy and statistically accurate without some ridiculous stretching ("bad? thats capitalism! good? that's DESPITE capitalism")

[Lallante]

China is doing a markedly better job of climate adaptation than the "liberal democracies" of the west

L O L

Yeah, that's a scary graph - but it needs to be put in the context of China's per capita carbon emissions being relatively low and also the fact that a non-trivial portion of that power is being used to make stuff for the West.

Jesus christ is this the new manifestation of tankieism?

[Lallante]

Low per capita rates doesn't sound as good when you are also populous enough that it adds up to a quarter of total global emissions.

Its also such a terrible argument when you put it in this context:


Because this shows that simping argument has a time limit.

[Liare]

Your image is also very ironic. The person in your image saying "we should improve society somewhat" is really Lallante. You are the one in the well, except perhaps you would say something more like "but today's society is horrible, shame on you for even daring to participate!"

no, what lallante is doing is that he somehow imagines a form of social democracy that has no far left engagement, no worker and union engagement and is somehow, trough the magic of unicorn farts sustainable after leaving his ivory tower dreamscape.

i keep asking him were the public support is going to come from, were the party infrastructure to make it happen is and by what mechanism he imagines it being put into place and kept in place considering the political landscape of the UK. its all well and good to have a dream model of a society, and make compassionate and convincing arguments in favour of it, but if that was enough we'd be living in a communist utopia. the social dynamics of capitalism are inherently antagonistic, if you do not have the power to enforce your vision, it won't happen. and lord haw haw can harp on and on about how he wants this social model because it's the optimal outcome, but without the ability to actually do it. it's just pointless wankery.

the closest he's gotten is dreams of putting a female version of tony blair in charge.

It only cost us our future.

the future isn't profitable.

Low per capita rates doesn't sound as good when you are also populous enough that it adds up to a quarter of total global emissions.

so, is this a roundabout way of saying that "asian people don't deserve higher living standards" ?

Low per capita rates doesn't sound as good when you are also populous enough that it adds up to a quarter of total global emissions.

Its also such a terrible argument when you put it in this context:


Because this shows that simping argument has a time limit.

if you just ignore what they've actually been saying the last 15 years, sure. its far from perfect, but that's not what i actually said in the first place. i said they're doing a better job at adaptation in large parts because the economy is more managed. the 2030 peak with a 2060 net neutral is a great deal more credible than anything coming out of the EU were we're still arguing that chopping down trees and setting them on fire is somehow renewable.

im sure you imagine they could do more faster, but the political reality in china is that their governmental legitimacy is predicated on improving living standards. doing it faster means undermining that legitimacy, and heyooo we get to the part were the climate change debate gets weaponized for foreign policy purposes! and you are, of course, also neglecting a important part of that graph, how much of that OECD decline is down to sending the polluting industries abroad, and were did they end up ?

global problems cannot be solved trough a national lens. at best you get unproductive finger pointing while everybody does the minimum possible, precisely the mess we're in now.

[Lallante]

This is exactly the point. Saying its someone else's problem to solve and so I dont need to do anything is always fucking stupid, whether that someone else is China, or its "Corporations". Everyone needs to do everything they reasonably can. The only way to beat a problem like climate change is to rewire society so that carbon impact and pollution are core considerations of every aspect of life, and kill it with a thousand cuts from a thousand directions.

[Rodj Blake]

Low per capita rates doesn't sound as good when you are also populous enough that it adds up to a quarter of total global emissions.

Its also such a terrible argument when you put it in this context:


Because this shows that simping argument has a time limit.

I'm not arguing that China shouldn't stop building coal-fired power stations, merely that they're not currently the worst polluter - something that's proven by your graph.

[evil edna]

Yup that group of 38 countries sure pollute slightly more than them, got em!

[mewninn]

This is exactly the point. Saying its someone else's problem to solve and so I dont need to do anything is always fucking stupid, whether that someone else is China, or its "Corporations". Everyone needs to do everything they reasonably can. The only way to beat a problem like climate change is to rewire society so that carbon impact and pollution are core considerations of every aspect of life, and kill it with a thousand cuts from a thousand directions.

It really is as far as most people are concerned. There's not enough slack, trust, or legitimacy left to buy more individual sacrifices after the "let's tighten our belts" of 2008 and "clap for the heroes" of 2020. You are quite literally trying to draw blood from the stone of the asset-starved, downwardly mobile in the west. You can probably impose it at gunpoint, but that would mean the kayfabe democracy which you prefer would have to disappear for a more overt system.

That's not even going into how cheap and plentiful consoom is like the one piece of driftwood that most people can still cling to. In two Anglosphere societies where shitty/multiple jobs, low security and unnatainable homeownership all prevail, there's the consolation prize that at least you can still stuff your face with the borgar at the end of a brutal shift. Take that shit away and you'll get to test the Lenin quote about weeks and decades

[Sacul]

This is exactly the point. Saying its someone else's problem to solve and so I dont need to do anything is always fucking stupid, whether that someone else is China, or its "Corporations". Everyone needs to do everything they reasonably can. The only way to beat a problem like climate change is to rewire society so that carbon impact and pollution are core considerations of every aspect of life, and kill it with a thousand cuts from a thousand directions.

It really is as far as most people are concerned. There's not enough slack, trust, or legitimacy left to buy more individual sacrifices after the "let's tighten our belts" of 2008 and "clap for the heroes" of 2020. You are quite literally trying to draw blood from the stone of the asset-starved, downwardly mobile in the west. You can probably impose it at gunpoint, but that would mean the kayfabe democracy which you prefer would have to disappear for a more overt system.

That's not even going into how cheap and plentiful consoom is like the one piece of driftwood that most people can still cling to. In two Anglosphere societies where shitty/multiple jobs, low security and unnatainable homeownership all prevail, there's the consolation prize that at least you can still stuff your face with the borgar at the end of a brutal shift. Take that shit away and you'll get to test the Lenin quote about weeks and decades

You said it better than i have ever did so i will steal part of your words from now on.

Re: climate and energy. I am so fuking sick and tired of being guilted into things out of my control. I believe the whole deal of start with yourself and try to ripple from there. I live in a house that is energy label A, build in 1938 and completely redone in 2016. My appliances are all the best energy label, the only time i set my thermostat above 19 celcius is when the gf is over. I dont own a car, when i do air travel i buy into the compensation for Co2. I dont have kids and dont want them. When i do need a car i rent electric or uber a tesla. I have been a vegetarian for 11 years but i caved in as my food experience was pretty low, now i eat meat/fish 2 times a week or at the holidays.
For some reason its never enough and i get the almost daily guilt tripping.

Re: the 2020 covid claps. I work in healthcare and so does the majority of my inner circle in various professions. The last decade government's have done nothing but cut down/austerity wages and personnel with straight up just wishful thinking about future tech despite over a decade of people saying that the first major crisis will collapse the system, even closing 5 entire hospitals with a increasing population (counted in beds and doctors per capita).

When covid did arrive everybody in healthcare worked twice as hard. I remember that i volunteered in 2020 at the hospital psych ward so that 'regular' nurses could attend to the covid patients. All we got was less ICU beds now than in 2019, no above inflation wage increase and a broken education system that still works with a numeris fixus. There is a huge outflow of healthcare staff since march and a sick leave >10% (very very high in NL). Yet again only guilt tripping all around how we should not ask about a wage increase during a crisis while its been a losing battle since 2010 so nothing new and how dare people eat fat foods, meat, drink, smoke or not work out 4 times a week etc etc.

Every psychologist knows that negative approaches to a problem only work in the very short term and you will get more with a carrot than a stick.

[depili]

This is exactly the point. Saying its someone else's problem to solve and so I dont need to do anything is always fucking stupid, whether that someone else is China, or its "Corporations". Everyone needs to do everything they reasonably can. The only way to beat a problem like climate change is to rewire society so that carbon impact and pollution are core considerations of every aspect of life, and kill it with a thousand cuts from a thousand directions.

And the thing most people don't realize, they are just pointing fingers at others "I ain't doing anything until that $entity cleans it's act first as it has bigger impact"

[whispous]

[NoirAvlaa]

Climate change requires governments to actually grow a spine and ban shit and heavily tax other things. It will be labelled as a "tax on poor", it needs to happen anyway.