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Thread: (UK EURO THREAD) UK POLITICS MK2

  1. #20181
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    They're an inevitable outcome of any progressive movement that explores possible futures. Sure it's a weakness in some respects, but the analogue in conservative movements are ideological crises whenever culture moves on and reactionaries get triggered.
    Destructive purity testing and total lack of compromise inevitable? Hardly! But even if true doesn't make it any less of a condemnation. A Left that can't see past its own bullshit to the importance of consolidating and unifying around common ground to take power will never take power, whether or not some evil conspiracy to keep them out of power exists. You dont need a state-media conspiracy to keep the left down to explain it staying down, and occams razor applies.
    It isn't a conspiracy. It's the nature of the contemporary media industry to reject and amplify different information. You don't exactly need to look far to see this in action, unless you are suggesting there is no bias in any media or that everyone is capable of acknowledging bias and seeing through it in order to make rational decisions?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Internal frictions exist within any political faction, the causes of failure are almost always external in mainstream politics.
    Not sure even you believe this. Imagine if Corbyn had had universal unwavering support from the left, whether centre left, green or labour. Really think he would have failed to get elected?

    PS: Not saying he deserved not to fail, ofc.
    If Corbyn hypothetically had unwavering support we'd be living in a such a different political climate everything we currently know would be totally thrown out the window. Support and opposition to Corbyn' labour is predicated on so many different factors with different levels of importance to different groups you can't just distill it down to 'nobody liked marxist granddad from islington' or even the marginally more nuanced 'he was too left wing for too many people'.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  2. #20182
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Out of 'leftism' as a self-titled movement? sure. fuck that tribal identity politics grievance/perpetual opposition bullshit. Out of being progressive, or moderately economically left wing (i.e. social democrat), lol no, not by anyone except anti-capitalists standards.

    I believe in socialism, just not in current or medium-term future society's ability to design or implement socialism adequately well for it not to be a genocidal disaster as against reforming capitalism.
    Why would you ever believe in socialism lmao.
    fully automated AI mediated space socialism

  3. #20183
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    Ah AI, gotcha. As an aside, I think it's as radically different an economic system to any other as, say, capitalism is to a hunter-gatherer economy, even though I know people commonly refer to AI-planned and automated as a form of socialism. Far from being government-run or regulated by the people in any meaningful way, it would be highly technocratic, even theocratic in a sense.

  4. #20184
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    There's a philosophical debate to be had here. If we are so inherently flawed that we can warp and pathologize capitalism to the extent we see now, socialism to the extent of communism we saw at the prime of USSR etc (or now in 'remote' parts of the world), maybe AI and getting rid of human factor is the way. But don't you feel even a bit of existential dread at the prospect of being governed as such? And where and how free will, right to self determination etc plays into that? Treat populations as drones on the whim of AI? Yeah, I'd rather return to monkee or take my chances during nuclear holocaust/biosphere failing to support human life on such extent.

    I unironically have high hopes for anarcho-syndycalism instead of that future. Even at the expense of massively slowed down technological progress. Because everyone knows we're using one of the greatest inventions, if not the greatest, in history of mankind, to send memes or as the biggest data harvesting apparatus (of the intelligence, as in agencies but now corporations, kind).
    Last edited by rufuske; July 29 2022 at 09:41:16 PM.

  5. #20185
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    Anything but capitalism. Have you ever met the owners of the means of production? They're fucking tiresome weirdos.

    The Koch brothers, the Barclay twins, Zuckerberg, trump, Dyson. Jesus Christ (actually, not him).
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  6. #20186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Anything but capitalism. Have you ever met the owners of the means of production? They're fucking tiresome weirdos.

    The Koch brothers, the Barclay twins, Zuckerberg, trump, Dyson. Jesus Christ (actually, not him).
    Mate, all the time, I work(ed) for them. You have no idea how deranged or detached from reality most of them are. This shit is not sustainable. All I'm trying to achieve with all my arguing with you is the least blood and destruction during inevitable transition period.

    edit:
    Here's an one fun example. One of the moguls of IT industry here (of the worst kind for whom only people that refuse to learn english work for) while dining in Italy on his private jet trip proclaimed that the only way to save the planet is for poors to eat less, especially meat, travel less etc and work more. Cherry on a cake is he's almost morbidly obese. Rules for thee, but not for me, amiright? He's also famous for underpaying his specialists to the such extent that at some point he faced multiple walkouts of entire teams and begrudgingly raised wages to half of market standard while fuming at his mouth how he's being ripped off.

    And then you have likes of Jaime Dimon etc with which your examples paired with are downright saints, or simply naive nouveau riches(I mean you Zuckerberg).
    If you're on that train of thought search for Bezos' pals from hedge funds and their business shenanigans and dive into that rabbit hole headfirst. And if you still have not had enough try to search for correlation between Gates being portrayed as scum of the earth, vaccine killing, foundation abusing blah blah propaganda on the internet against Amazon loosing contracts with defence industry in lieu of Microsoft cloud. And so on and so forth.
    Last edited by rufuske; July 30 2022 at 12:44:27 AM.

  7. #20187
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Anything but capitalism.
    Feudalism? Libertarianism? Whatever Somalia is?
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
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  8. #20188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Anything but capitalism.
    Feudalism? Libertarianism? Whatever Somalia is?
    True capitalism has never been tried...
    Down with all the companies deemed being too big to fail. Let someone who's better aligned to deal with reality take your place. But some people with a lot of power and money invested in them can't have that.

  9. #20189
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    It's pretty easy to have a transitional phase where workers are given 50% +1 of a company's voting shares and you make it impossible for exotic financial derivatives to exist which provide no real social value or enable price discovery. High finance is the primary method used for extreme redistribution of wealth from workers to capital owning classes.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  10. #20190
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Ah AI, gotcha. As an aside, I think it's as radically different an economic system to any other as, say, capitalism is to a hunter-gatherer economy, even though I know people commonly refer to AI-planned and automated as a form of socialism. Far from being government-run or regulated by the people in any meaningful way, it would be highly technocratic, even theocratic in a sense.
    All non-market resource allocation with an empathetic view towards people's needs tends to fall within the 'socialism' catch-all.

  11. #20191
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Ah AI, gotcha. As an aside, I think it's as radically different an economic system to any other as, say, capitalism is to a hunter-gatherer economy, even though I know people commonly refer to AI-planned and automated as a form of socialism. Far from being government-run or regulated by the people in any meaningful way, it would be highly technocratic, even theocratic in a sense.
    All non-market resource allocation with an empathetic view towards people's needs tends to fall within the 'socialism' catch-all.

  12. #20192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Ah AI, gotcha. As an aside, I think it's as radically different an economic system to any other as, say, capitalism is to a hunter-gatherer economy, even though I know people commonly refer to AI-planned and automated as a form of socialism. Far from being government-run or regulated by the people in any meaningful way, it would be highly technocratic, even theocratic in a sense.
    All non-market resource allocation with an empathetic view towards people's needs tends to fall within the 'socialism' catch-all.
    Scattering a few crumbs under the table is a cruel parody of socialism.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  13. #20193
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    How did Liz Truss become the frontrunner?
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
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    WTF I hate white people now...
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  14. #20194
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    Members of the Tory party are lunatics (and a little bit racist)
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  15. #20195
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    What a surprise https://www.theguardian.com/politics...arming-ukraine

    Let russians genocide them in peace, warmongers.

  16. #20196

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    How did Liz Truss become the frontrunner?
    > Lest likely to rock the boat while they carry on snouts down emptying the trough
    > comically weak unlikely to cause party troubles about institutional racism/sexism
    > fuck knows tbh.
    technology canít solve economic and political problems

  17. #20197
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    Say what you like about the tories, but they are defunding the police.
    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    And btw, you're such a fucking asshole it genuinely amazes me on a regular basis how you manage to function.

  18. #20198
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    What a surprise https://www.theguardian.com/politics...arming-ukraine

    Let russians genocide them in peace, warmongers.
    Heh, nice to have some closure on the Corbyn topic.
    Tanks: theBlind[URBAD] (in my heart there will always be a place for [FAIL])
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  19. #20199
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Like so many on the left, he is anti-West not pro-peace

  20. #20200
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    not even communist granddad is immune from the boomer brain worms
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

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