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Thread: (UK EURO THREAD) UK POLITICS MK2

  1. #11141
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    and not the policies.
    What policies?

  2. #11142
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    Djan's annoyed because the 2024 election is going to be exactly the same as this one

    Whatever candidate wins the leadership election is going to have to try to be an effective leader of the opposition for 4 years.

    The public will be sick to the back teeth of them and all the forums and twitter will be ablaze with discussions about who is or isn't left enough until the second the election is lost and we all start again "how could this happen, but but but the policies"

    Labour will never be in power again until the public prefer them over the tories. How can that be achieved when the infighting is so vicious and public?


    Poland treats me like shit and I hate them as a result of it

  3. #11143
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    ye uk is fucked for a long time m8s

  4. #11144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Djan's annoyed because the 2024 election is going to be exactly the same as this one

    Whatever candidate wins the leadership election is going to have to try to be an effective leader of the opposition for 4 years.

    The public will be sick to the back teeth of them and all the forums and twitter will be ablaze with discussions about who is or isn't left enough until the second the election is lost and we all start again "how could this happen, but but but the policies"

    Labour will never be in power again until the public prefer them over the tories. How can that be achieved when the infighting is so vicious and public?
    the argument that then (usually) follows is "so, you loonie lefties who make up a large chunk of the party are just going to have to grin and bear it so a centrist candidate barely distinguishable from a tory, or a lump of potato mash, can win the next election" is not going to fly either.

    though one could argue that a lump of potato mash would be better qualified to run the show though.

    it's not like the conservatives don't air their dirty party laundry either, brexit itself is largely the result of just such a spat. your dysfunctional electoral system means the UK lacks the relief valve usually seen in European democracies namely that big-name established parties are getting flushed out of parliament in favour of newer ones forcing the equilibrium to chance significantly that way, if you're not willing to adapt there's a surging green party, or a bunch of ethnonationalists, coming to eat your lunch essentially.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  5. #11145

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    How can that be achieved when the infighting is so vicious and public?
    Easy, purge the tankies. They're like 10% of the party tops but spend 90% of their energy categorising everyone into their three handy buckets of ideological purity, which run in approximate order of loathing: true leftie corbro, literal nazis and "centrist blairite actual tory scum".

    Like this nutcase:

    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    a centrist candidate barely distinguishable from a tory
    There's a hardcore of wingnut lefties who have spent so long detached from reality that they're entirely convinced that anyone who even moderately disagrees with them must be an actual, honest to god, baby murdering tory and therefore anyone who suggests they might be wrong is a baby murdering tory. You can't reason with people this detached from reality and people that detached from reality don't win votes. Purge.
    Last edited by elmicker; January 9 2020 at 06:47:36 PM.

  6. #11146
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    There are so few people in the labour party who resemble tories. Why would there be when they could join a more successful party?


    Poland treats me like shit and I hate them as a result of it

  7. #11147
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    the autists are arguing!

  8. #11148
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    Quote Originally Posted by evil edna View Post
    the autists are arguing!
    That's the bedrock this version of the forum was built on.

    Entrox was a visionary who knew internetspaceships could only carry us so far.

  9. #11149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandzibar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by evil edna View Post
    the autists are arguing!
    That's the bedrock this version of the forum was built on.

    Entrox was a visionary who knew internetspaceships could only carry us so far.
    Autistic slap-fights, however, will endure as long as the network is capable of carrying them...
    meh

  10. #11150

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    Both of you are tip top fucking retards. If you think 500k people represent the 'hoi polloi' (what does that even fucking mean? You stupid pizza delivery system)
    and here i was figuring you for being a reasonably broadly educated individual, it's a greek term meaning "the many" and features as a slang term for the broader electorate in the city-state, analogous to prole versus plebeian and patrician in a Roman context.

    i can sort-of understand that type of ignorance from the math/engineering crowd, but a lawyer ?
    Djan isn't asking what 'hoi polloi' means. To highlight the absurdity of your posting, he is comically contrasting your use of that term with the fact that you deliver pizza.

  11. #11151
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    There's a hardcore of wingnut lefties who have spent so long detached from reality that they're entirely convinced that anyone who even moderately disagrees with them must be an actual, honest to god, baby murdering tory and therefore anyone who suggests they might be wrong is a baby murdering tory. You can't reason with people this detached from reality and people that detached from reality don't win votes. Purge.
    the party "bloc" i vote for has grown from sub 5% to 18% in 15 years with no sign of slowing down, if projections hold true they're going to displace the domestic equivalent to labour next election cycle.

    but then the social democrats doubled down on racism and neoliberalism last time they held power, and they haven't stopped yet, maybe they will once they hit the lower vote bound ? the last gem of defacto forced 37 hour a weeks of labour for the unemployed was especially impressive from a bunch of people who call themselves "the danish workers party", but that is an aside.

    we're living in a increasingly radical time and politics are radicalizing right along with it, parties can either deal with that and veer away from center, or curl up and die slowly as they are doing right now, across Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    There are so few people in the labour party who resemble tories. Why would there be when they could join a more successful party?
    *shrug* i live in a actual functional democracy, so it's all coalition governments due to the D'hondt method we use.

    the whole "we need big compromise parties with lots of infighting!" is, in some ways utterly absurd to behold from that perspective, individual electoral performance decides bargaining power in the given coalition formation post election and there's no need for a given party leader also become the face of the entire political bloc, indeed the "crown prince" party leader can, and have occasionally, ended up a junior partner in a coalition government and the norm is that not all members of the coalition has actual government seats, especially the red-greens don't want to fiddle with the levers of power directly as ministers.

    it also promotes a more realistic approach to campaigning, parties campaign on what they want, with the explicit stipulation that it's pending electoral results and the resulting compromise that is then in turn announced to the public, that is what governments are in turn held accountable to.

    i would hesitate to call the lib-dem or conservatives successful parties, the former haven't recovered from Clegg and the latter has taken to carry out the national equivalent of self inflicted amputation with a dirty saw.

    or that's how it looks from the outside anyway.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  12. #11152

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    the party "bloc" i vote for...
    why the fuck are you talking about Denmark you fucking simpleton

  13. #11153
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    Your 6 paragraphs about denmark are not helpful to UK politics thanks.

    Electoral reform would be fucking great but it won't ever happen in this dumb country


    Poland treats me like shit and I hate them as a result of it

  14. #11154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Your 6 paragraphs about denmark are not helpful to UK politics thanks.

    Electoral reform would be fucking great but it won't ever happen in this dumb country
    true, the flip-side is that your political system in turn promotes a "winner takes all" attitude towards internal party politics with the results in evidence.

    and of course it will, at some point, in a not too distant future by the looks of it, the whole system is going to end up so dysfunctional it collapses under it's own weight and reform becomes inevitable, quite what shape that takes is of course the actual question.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  15. #11155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Your 6 paragraphs about denmark are not helpful to UK politics thanks.

    Electoral reform would be fucking great but it won't ever happen in this dumb country
    true, the flip-side is that your political system in turn promotes a "winner takes all" attitude towards internal party politics with the results in evidence.

    and of course it will, at some point, in a not too distant future by the looks of it, the whole system is going to end up so dysfunctional it collapses under it's own weight and reform becomes inevitable, quite what shape that takes is of course the actual question.
    This level of shitty corruption and single party politics without any organised opposition isn't unprecedented in british history. The system will most likely endure.

    The hope is that since the tory party has been taken over by radical factions that one day they will see the light and either split meaningfully or enact electoral reform for survival.

    Farage's new project is constitutional reform and he has influenced British politics more significantly than anyone else in recent history so maybe it'll happen. Enemy of my enemy and that.


    Poland treats me like shit and I hate them as a result of it

  16. #11156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Your 6 paragraphs about denmark are not helpful to UK politics thanks.

    Electoral reform would be fucking great but it won't ever happen in this dumb country
    They are helpful in that they make it easier to demonstrate structural issues with UK Democracy. Countries with proportional vote systems have much longer periods of left wing coalitions in government and as a result less inequality and less structural disenfranchisement.

    Labour have only won an election with a transformational mandate off the back of already being in power via the unity Government of ww2.

    All this talk of centrist politics is frankly pointless when the centrist position lost labour 4 million votes since 2001.

    As for party stalinists, they exist but they aren't in the younger demographics (yet). There are a bunch of centralists who need dealing with, but part of that will be electing the right leader
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  17. #11157

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Labour have only won an election with a transformational mandate off the back of already being in power via the unity Government of ww2.

    All this talk of centrist politics is frankly pointless when the centrist position lost labour 4 million votes since 2001.
    So what you're saying is 1997 didn't happen and Labour's real problem isn't that they're led by a bunch of nasty, hamas-adoring, england-hating wannabe Scargills with no friends, but that they weren't left wing enough?

  18. #11158
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    1997 did happen but it is irrelevant because 2008 happened and 2017 happened.

    The problem is structural, the people involved are symptoms of institutional hangovers (the crusty 80s stalinist brigade who fetishise centralist bureaucracy) and internal parliamentary tensions (which were mostly resolved with the defections).

    A more interest route to take here is where do we agree? Instead at sniping at individual points you don't agree with and misrepresenting me on others, there must be a element of common ground.

    Do you agree that the future of progressive politics relies on building a coalition?
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  19. #11159

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    Do you actually stand for anything? I thought you just moaned at length in vague terms about how it's the system that's broken and therefore all action is futile

  20. #11160

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    That's why this forum desperately needs a throttling system. And just for Keckers and Laire. 4 posts/day for free across all of FHC, each additional post incurs an extra hour of wait-time before the next post.

    Too many of their posts are nothing but the leftist equivalent of the bible-thumper "because of God". Yes, that's right, I'm saying the sentiment "because of capitalism" is nearly just as vacuous as "because of God"; both might be true but so what?

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