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Thread: (UK EURO THREAD) UK POLITICS MK2

  1. #3461
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    ONLY 36 DAYS TO GO LADDIES

  2. #3462
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    Nothing speaks so clearly as German humor

  3. #3463
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Capitano View Post
    I don't really care what the original argument for representative democracy was, I care what it is today. Direct democracy has its place, plenty of places practice it, but there's absolutely nowhere that outright abandoned representative democracy. Those politicians you love to sneer at are, by and large, much much more knowledgable and qualified to take a position on nearly all legislation than the median voter in their area.
    having seen how the sausage is made, i beg the differ the second it becomes more complex than "LONGER SENTENCES FOR DARKIES!", what representative democracy does do is that it entrenches a couple of ruling cliques typically rooted in the parties they originate from who then struggle for power, with the membership of said cliques being controlled at least in part by the party membership.

    it's also worth noting that nobody is presenting direct democracy as a wholescale replacement, every left-wing social model has a degree of representative democracy build in, it is simply reduced in scope to where it is relevant be it due to specialist knowledge, decision turnaround time or other factors.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Capitano View Post
    As for the whole whining about capitalists capturing politicians and special interest groups, this is a thread fucking dominated by Brexit, a prime example of direct democracy getting completely fucking usurped by perverse interests!
    Brexit is very much not a failure of direct democracy, it's a failure of governance and a inability to make the EU a appealing prospect, the failure doesn't start with the voter, it starts with the political and media class and how that circus was allowed to unfold.

    i suppose you could call it a failure of direct democracy if you're the sort of person who thinks remain was the only legitimate outcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Capitano View Post
    needs are easily definable, anything you need to survive, remain healthy and participate in society is a need.
    food, shelter, relevant medication, access to community and so forth, those are objective needs.

    wants, wants is another matter, you're arguing wants, not needs, and often manufactured wants at that.
    You can survive on soylent, so I guess a cheese sandwich is a want. Besides, if you want to reduce life to just what you need, it'll be a sad existence.
    you where asking for a definition of what people needs, i provided one.

    nobody is talking about reducing life to just what you need, that is you shuffling goalposts.


    Quote Originally Posted by El Capitano View Post
    holy sweatshops are good actually argument batman!
    you do realise you're functionally one step removed from arguing that bringing back child labour would improve the economy right ? i mean adding their income to the household would constitute a net increase in economic activity, and it's not like sweatshop employment requires anything in terms of specialist skills.

    have a new york times article about the subject and here is the actual paper that article is build upon.
    From that very article:
    For poor countries to develop, we simply do not know of any alternative to industrialization. The sooner that happens, the sooner the world will end extreme poverty. As we look at our results, we are conflicted: We do not want to see workers exposed to hazardous risks, but we also worry that regulating or improving the jobs too much too quickly will keep that industrial boom from happening.
    Sweatshops suck, but we've not actually found a better solution, is that what you're trying to say?
    the gist of the article, and the study in particular is that your entire argument about sweatshops as a "stepping stone" is null and void, it was never not bullshit and groups like ILO have called it precisely that for thirty years or more.

    that qoute is just liberal hand-wringing over how it would be possible for the poorer countries to catch up without stopping the exploitation the west is so heavily dependent upon, pro tip, it's not.


    Quote Originally Posted by El Capitano View Post
    That's just as much an argument for the status quo as it is against. The current system of a parliamentary democracy is widely supported by the electorate, so anarchists must be fine with it as that makes it justified.
    and we are, that does not mean we agree with it, or does itt mean we do not argue for a change in that, but nowhere do you see the modern far-left actually take up arms unless it's in opposition to totalitarianism. YPG being a good example to point at.

    Vanguardism is dead, it died in the 80's.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Capitano View Post
    Oh well, if the holy communist manifesto decrees it, it must be great. I know, we'll consult one of the successful communist countries about how well it's worked. Err...
    this is turd tier argumentation, do better.

    the distinction between personal and private property is a fundamental one that takes all of 20 seconds to comprehend yet is a cornerstone argument of every ideology left of liberalism, if you're unwilling to even expend that amount of effort then why do you expect anybody to sincerely engage with you in the first place?
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  4. #3464

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    (UK EURO THREAD) UK POLITICS MK2

    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    having seen how the sausage is made, i beg the differ the second it becomes more complex than "LONGER SENTENCES FOR DARKIES!", what representative democracy does do is that it entrenches a couple of ruling cliques typically rooted in the parties they originate from who then struggle for power, with the membership of said cliques being controlled at least in part by the party membership.
    That's definitely a major problem, especially in FPTP systems like the UK, which is why I want a change to the electoral system and a change from two main parties to more of a plurality and coalition building. However, I've yet to see significant evidence that replacing representative democracy with direct democracy would change that.
    it's also worth noting that nobody is presenting direct democracy as a wholescale replacement, every left-wing social model has a degree of representative democracy build in, it is simply reduced in scope to where it is relevant be it due to specialist knowledge, decision turnaround time or other factors.
    I see you missed the part where Keckers literally decried representative democracy unfit for purpose, that's where this whole line of debate came from. Do better.
    Brexit is very much not a failure of direct democracy, it's a failure of governance and a inability to make the EU a appealing prospect, the failure doesn't start with the voter, it starts with the political and media class and how that circus was allowed to unfold.

    i suppose you could call it a failure of direct democracy if you're the sort of person who thinks remain was the only legitimate outcome.
    Ah yes, the old "X didn't fail, X was failed" line of reasoning. The major complaint I have about Brexit is the way that the Leave campaign was utterly packed full of lies and then, after the fact, was hijacked by the hard Brexiteers who shaped the narrative. This exposes a weakness of direct democracy in the modern age; just how easy it is to shape public opinion and get them to vote for something ultimately harmful.
    you where asking for a definition of what people needs, i provided one.
    Even the definition you provided has problems, because it simply becomes a debate about quantity. It's also rather nebulous around the whole "access to community".
    nobody is talking about reducing life to just what you need, that is you shuffling goalposts.
    This whole claim falls in the face of the attitude Keckers has. "You don't need this" suddenly becomes quite a powerful tool tool to deprive you of personal agency.
    the gist of the article, and the study in particular is that your entire argument about sweatshops as a "stepping stone" is null and void, it was never not bullshit and groups like ILO have called it precisely that for thirty years or more.

    that qoute is just liberal hand-wringing over how it would be possible for the poorer countries to catch up without stopping the exploitation the west is so heavily dependent upon, pro tip, it's not.
    OK, so what country has developed without going through those sorts of steps?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Capitano View Post
    That's just as much an argument for the status quo as it is against. The current system of a parliamentary democracy is widely supported by the electorate, so anarchists must be fine with it as that makes it justified.
    and we are, that does not mean we agree with it, or does itt mean we do not argue for a change in that, but nowhere do you see the modern far-left actually take up arms unless it's in opposition to totalitarianism. YPG being a good example to point at.

    Vanguardism is dead, it died in the 80's.[/quote]
    Keckers literally calls it unfit for purpose, which I'm pretty much sure means he sees it as unjustified. Are you seriously suggesting that's if you asked any significant number of anarchists of Keckers' variety, they'd come back saying Britain's parliamentary system meets the definition of anarchist because it enjoys broad support and is thus a justified organisation structure?! Come off it.
    this is turd tier argumentation, do better.

    the distinction between personal and private property is a fundamental one that takes all of 20 seconds to comprehend yet is a cornerstone argument of every ideology left of liberalism, if you're unwilling to even expend that amount of effort then why do you expect anybody to sincerely engage with you in the first place?
    Quite frankly, I'd be happy enough if you didn't, your belligerent and dismissive attitude creates a debating environment that is designed to bring out the worst in people rather than have an honest debate, but I suspect you know that because you aren't willing to honestly engage in the first place.

  5. #3465

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Capitano View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    No, I can't be bothered to engage with you. I don't think it is worth my time.
    I guess that's fine, so long as you're ok with everybody treating you with the same contempt.
    I don't think you understand how terrible things are and how hard baked into the system this is. The deck is so astronomically stacked against good honest people that nobody should be apologising for it, especially good and honest people. It is a perversion of humanity that allows it to continue and it is supported by the very people it exploits as if their exploitation is a virtue.
    And here we get to the core of it. For most of us on this forum, we really have it pretty fucking good in comparison to almost all of human history. I'd rather be who I am now that a king even 100 years ago. Global poverty is on a steady decline, many of the nastiest causes of death are effectively gone, we have improving cancer survival rates and we can enjoy levels of comfort almost unheard of prior to the modern age.

    But no, everything is completely shit.
    This is a fucking dumb post and proof exactly of why Keckers is completely right in calling your shit out.

    Goddamn.

    Ignore and misrepresent people you're supposedly interested in debating more will you.

    Case in point why debating anything on FHC is retarded.

  6. #3466

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    This is a fucking dumb post and proof exactly of why Keckers is completely right in calling your shit out.

    Goddamn.

    Ignore and misrepresent people you're supposedly interested in debating more will you.

    Case in point why debating anything on FHC is retarded.
    Says the guy whose sole contribution this past half decade is to throw out contentless insults.

  7. #3467
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    "I live in a semi detached house and have a leased car in the drive, I'm perfectly happy that government is defunding hospitals while billionaires buy a few more yachts. This is just great. Oh no, there goes the global ecosystem". This is a level of economic cuckoldry people should be ashamed of.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  8. #3468

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    We should always strive for better and the level of taxation, especially for the richer people in society (including myself in that) is too low. We're not funding public services enough and that includes social safety nets. That does not mean I don't recognise the fact that we still have it pretty fucking good as a society compared to nearly all of history.

  9. #3469

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    "I live in a semi detached house and have a leased car in the drive, I'm perfectly happy that government is defunding hospitals while billionaires buy a few more yachts. This is just great. Oh no, there goes the global ecosystem". This is a level of economic cuckoldry people should be ashamed of.
    This strawman deserves to go to the gulag.

  10. #3470
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    Hardly a strawman when white van man votes tory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  11. #3471

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Hardly a strawman when white van man votes tory.
    You are not discussing this with the white van man. You are discussing it with us.

    We are (for the most part) collectively able to understand that we have life the best it has ever been, while also having a vast scope for improvement.

  12. #3472
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    Agitate for improvement then.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  13. #3473

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Agitate for improvement then.
    And there you go again with the strawman.

    Just because someone disagrees with your particular vision for the future, doesn't mean they are a politically inactive complacent white van man.

    Get yourself out of that mindset.

  14. #3474

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Agitate for improvement then.
    And there you go again with the strawman.

    Just because someone disagrees with your particular vision for the future, doesn't mean they are a politically inactive complacent white van man.

    Get yourself out of that mindset.
    So tell us, what have you done to make society more equal?

  15. #3475
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Just because someone disagrees with your particular vision for the future, doesn't mean they are a politically inactive complacent white van man.
    Most people are politically inactive though. Putting a cross in a box ever 5 years isn't political activity, it's just voting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  16. #3476

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    Oh wow we're now into Holier than Thou territory. Glorious.

  17. #3477

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Just because someone disagrees with your particular vision for the future, doesn't mean they are a politically inactive complacent white van man.
    Most people are politically inactive though. Putting a cross in a box ever 5 years isn't political activity, it's just voting.
    We must all look so tiny from up there on that ethically sourced, community owned, laissez faire, synthetic ivory tower.

  18. #3478
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    Yeah, I'm the real problem here
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  19. #3479
    Super Baderator DonorGlobal Moderator cullnean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Yeah, I'm the real problem here
    just boring tbh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elriche Oshego View Post
    Cullneshi the god of shitposting.
    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    anything soviet is of evil

  20. #3480
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    I just want people to go out and do more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

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