hate these ads?, log in or register to hide them
Page 172 of 230 FirstFirst ... 72122162169170171172173174175182222 ... LastLast
Results 3,421 to 3,440 of 4589

Thread: (UK EURO THREAD) UK POLITICS MK2

  1. #3421
    Keckers's Avatar
    Join Date
    July 31, 2012
    Posts
    18,104
    Quote Originally Posted by El Capitano View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Anarchists don't reject authority, we reject unjustifiable hierarchies and top down authority/rule.
    It is literally about rejecting authority, or at the very least authoritarianism. After all, who's going to define the authority and who's actually going to stop you? He'll, who's going to define what's justifiable?

    Fundamentally, when you get down to it, anarchism is such a broad term that saying "I'm an anarchist" doesn't actually mean all that much.
    Reframe it this way, think of what Anarchism is the practice of rather the rejection of.

    In practice, how can people achieve things with non-state means, how mutual aid can be used to solve x problem, what societal relations or networks do we already have which aren't mediated by the state and what strengths/limitations do those have?
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  2. #3422
    Keckers's Avatar
    Join Date
    July 31, 2012
    Posts
    18,104
    Quote Originally Posted by El Capitano View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    edit: In terms of the consumer discussion, how many western brands do you think would survive without excessive labour exploitation in the third world? You don't tackle overconsumption with demand sided policy, you absolutely nail the supply side with rigorous standards.
    But that in itself imposes problems. During the height of the Apple/Foxconn kerfuffle, Apple started imposing much stricter terms on Foxconn, including working hours. There were quite a number of Chinese workers who actually got upset at that, as working there doing long hours was their way to make a good amount of money, far more than they could have done elsewhere.

    Even making t-shirts, whilst seemingly exploitative, is actually a very good job comparatively for people in those countries and it's a stepping stone for the economy.
    If you can't see the immediate problem with the various relationships at play here in even the context of big tent 'socialism' then I'm afraid I can't be bothered to engage with this at all

    Read something by Bookchin or whatever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  3. #3423

    Join Date
    April 12, 2011
    Posts
    2,536
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    If you can't see the immediate problem with the various relationships at play here in even the context of big tent 'socialism' then I'm afraid I can't be bothered to engage with this at all

    Read something by Bookchin or whatever.
    So, after accusing me of not actually being interested or willing to constructively engage, you decide to just throw your toys out of the pram? Classy.

    Quite frankly, I think you're so blinkered by how you think things should be, you're blinded to how things actually are and that imperfect improvements are actually improvements, but you can't admit it due to your ideology.

  4. #3424
    Keckers's Avatar
    Join Date
    July 31, 2012
    Posts
    18,104
    No, I can't be bothered to engage with you. I don't think it is worth my time.

    I don't think you understand how terrible things are and how hard baked into the system this is. The deck is so astronomically stacked against good honest people that nobody should be apologising for it, especially good and honest people. It is a perversion of humanity that allows it to continue and it is supported by the very people it exploits as if their exploitation is a virtue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  5. #3425

    Join Date
    April 13, 2011
    Posts
    6,893
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    we reject unjustifiable hierarchies
    Who decides what is justifiable?

  6. #3426

    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    14,003
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    we reject unjustifiable hierarchies
    Who decides what is justifiable?
    The People's Commissars, obviously.


  7. #3427

    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    14,003
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by El Capitano View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Anarchists don't reject authority, we reject unjustifiable hierarchies and top down authority/rule.
    It is literally about rejecting authority, or at the very least authoritarianism. After all, who's going to define the authority and who's actually going to stop you? He'll, who's going to define what's justifiable?

    Fundamentally, when you get down to it, anarchism is such a broad term that saying "I'm an anarchist" doesn't actually mean all that much.
    Reframe it this way, think of what Anarchism is the practice of rather the rejection of.

    In practice, how can people achieve things with non-state means, how mutual aid can be used to solve x problem, what societal relations or networks do we already have which aren't mediated by the state and what strengths/limitations do those have?
    Sounds like right-wing Libertarianism wrapped up in a left-wing bow.


  8. #3428
    Keckers's Avatar
    Join Date
    July 31, 2012
    Posts
    18,104
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Sounds like right-wing Libertarianism wrapped up in a left-wing bow.
    Property relations require state enforcement which require a monopoly of violence. I'm not going to do the philosophy justice, I'm not a great thinker or orator but the work I see done by non-state actors identifying with leftist causes throughout communities ignored by power gives me hope for such movements. These people do much better work than any politician wearing a suit or banker pledging money.

    Propaganda of the deed, community organisation and direct action is where real world changes are made. On the internet I'm content to point out how terrible the dark side of capitalism is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  9. #3429
    Keckers's Avatar
    Join Date
    July 31, 2012
    Posts
    18,104
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    we reject unjustifiable hierarchies
    Who decides what is justifiable?
    Are they held democratically accountable for their actions is typically the starting point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  10. #3430

    Join Date
    April 12, 2011
    Posts
    2,536

    (UK EURO THREAD) UK POLITICS MK2

    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    No, I can't be bothered to engage with you. I don't think it is worth my time.
    I guess that's fine, so long as you're ok with everybody treating you with the same contempt.
    I don't think you understand how terrible things are and how hard baked into the system this is. The deck is so astronomically stacked against good honest people that nobody should be apologising for it, especially good and honest people. It is a perversion of humanity that allows it to continue and it is supported by the very people it exploits as if their exploitation is a virtue.
    And here we get to the core of it. For most of us on this forum, we really have it pretty fucking good in comparison to almost all of human history. I'd rather be who I am now that a king even 100 years ago. Global poverty is on a steady decline, many of the nastiest causes of death are effectively gone, we have improving cancer survival rates and we can enjoy levels of comfort almost unheard of prior to the modern age.

    But no, everything is completely shit.

  11. #3431

    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    14,003
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Sounds like right-wing Libertarianism wrapped up in a left-wing bow.
    Property relations require state enforcement which require a monopoly of violence. I'm not going to do the philosophy justice, I'm not a great thinker or orator but the work I see done by non-state actors identifying with leftist causes throughout communities ignored by power gives me hope for such movements. These people do much better work than any politician wearing a suit or banker pledging money.

    Propaganda of the deed, community organisation and direct action is where real world changes are made. On the internet I'm content to point out how terrible the dark side of capitalism is.
    I think your intentions are good. I think you have a good heart (best as I can tell).

    I feel no need to shit on your idealist young, inexperienced naivety as the real truths about human nature. Humans are inherantly selfish evil creatures. When left to their own, they're never as good or selfless as you want them to be. The Libertarian/Anarchist utopia is not a real thing.

    With that said, some aspects of it may work in certain circumstances, and we should strive to be better.
    Last edited by Alistair; February 21 2019 at 02:23:42 PM.


  12. #3432

    Join Date
    April 12, 2011
    Posts
    2,536
    Also, property (aka "mine") is hard-wired into the human psyche, good luck getting rid of that.

  13. #3433

    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Location
    2006
    Posts
    5,243
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Sounds like right-wing Libertarianism wrapped up in a left-wing bow.
    Property relations require state enforcement which require a monopoly of violence. I'm not going to do the philosophy justice, I'm not a great thinker or orator but the work I see done by non-state actors identifying with leftist causes throughout communities ignored by power gives me hope for such movements. These people do much better work than any politician wearing a suit or banker pledging money.

    Propaganda of the deed, community organisation and direct action is where real world changes are made. On the internet I'm content to point out how terrible the dark side of capitalism is.
    I think your intentions are good. I think you have a good heart (best as I can tell).

    I feel no need to shit on your idealist young, inexperienced naivety as the real truths about human nature. Humans are inherantly selfish evil creatures. When left to their own, they're never as good or selfless as you want them to be. The Libertarian/Anarchist utopia is not a real thing.

    With that said, some aspects of it may work in certain circumstances, and we should strive to be better.
    I almost agree with you.

    I don't think those utopia's can exist unless we achieve effectively unlimited resource abundance.

    Our ultimate goal should be to achieve resource abundance; via systems of governance and organisation that can operate in the current resource limited environment.

    So far I haven't seen anything offer a better possibility of that than the Nordic model of social democracy.
    Last edited by Nicholai Pestot; February 21 2019 at 02:47:59 PM.

  14. #3434

    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    14,003
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Sounds like right-wing Libertarianism wrapped up in a left-wing bow.
    Property relations require state enforcement which require a monopoly of violence. I'm not going to do the philosophy justice, I'm not a great thinker or orator but the work I see done by non-state actors identifying with leftist causes throughout communities ignored by power gives me hope for such movements. These people do much better work than any politician wearing a suit or banker pledging money.

    Propaganda of the deed, community organisation and direct action is where real world changes are made. On the internet I'm content to point out how terrible the dark side of capitalism is.
    I think your intentions are good. I think you have a good heart (best as I can tell).

    I feel no need to shit on your idealist young, inexperienced naivety as the real truths about human nature. Humans are inherantly selfish evil creatures. When left to their own, they're never as good or selfless as you want them to be. The Libertarian/Anarchist utopia is not a real thing.

    With that said, some aspects of it may work in certain circumstances, and we should strive to be better.
    I almost agree with you.

    I don't think those utopia's can exist unless we achieve effectively unlimited resource abundance.

    Our ultimate goal should be to achieve resource abundance; via systems of governance and organisation that can operate in the current resource limited environment.

    So far I haven't seen anything offer a better possibility of that than the Nordic model of social democracy.
    Good post. +1


  15. #3435
    Keckers's Avatar
    Join Date
    July 31, 2012
    Posts
    18,104
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    I think your intentions are good. I think you have a good heart (best as I can tell).

    I feel no need to shit on your idealist young, inexperienced naivety as the real truths about human nature. Humans are inherantly selfish evil creatures. When left to their own, they're never as good or selfless as you want them to be. The Libertarian/Anarchist utopia is not a real thing.

    With that said, some aspects of it may work in certain circumstances, and we should strive to be better.
    I don't believe even a significant minority of people I have met are inherently selfish or evil. I don't believe the utopia is a real thing, but I think without striving for it as if it were we stand no chance of finding solutions to our biggest problems. Resources aren't as scarce as many believe them to be, it is a question of distribution of those resources and removing those who benefit from scarcity.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Capitano View Post
    Also, property (aka "mine") is hard-wired into the human psyche, good luck getting rid of that.
    Thank you Stefan Molyneux for this in depth analysis of human psychology and concepts of ownership.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  16. #3436
    SteeleResolve's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 13, 2011
    Location
    AKA Pubbie McLemming
    Posts
    3,364
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    I think your intentions are good. I think you have a good heart (best as I can tell).

    I feel no need to shit on your idealist young, inexperienced naivety as the real truths about human nature. Humans are inherantly selfish evil creatures. When left to their own, they're never as good or selfless as you want them to be. The Libertarian/Anarchist utopia is not a real thing.

    With that said, some aspects of it may work in certain circumstances, and we should strive to be better.
    I don't believe even a significant minority of people I have met are inherently selfish or evil. I don't believe the utopia is a real thing, but I think without striving for it as if it were we stand no chance of finding solutions to our biggest problems. Resources aren't as scarce as many believe them to be, it is a question of distribution of those resources and removing those who benefit from scarcity.
    I don't think they are either, but when taken away from giving/sharing to friends/charities out of choice, it brings the "real us" out.

    Unless you just hang around with tree-huggers.

  17. #3437
    Keckers's Avatar
    Join Date
    July 31, 2012
    Posts
    18,104
    This is why community action is so important. Modern life has us needlessly busy and set against each other. We are the most productive we have ever been, producing almost everything we need in abundance and yet we don't have time or energy to interact with or create communities? Community spirit is lower than it ever has been, probably because nobody has found a way to make a steady profit from it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  18. #3438

    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    14,003
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    I think your intentions are good. I think you have a good heart (best as I can tell).

    I feel no need to shit on your idealist young, inexperienced naivety as the real truths about human nature. Humans are inherantly selfish evil creatures. When left to their own, they're never as good or selfless as you want them to be. The Libertarian/Anarchist utopia is not a real thing.

    With that said, some aspects of it may work in certain circumstances, and we should strive to be better.
    I don't believe even a significant minority of people I have met are inherently selfish or evil.
    That's because A. You live in a wealthy first world nation state that provides for your citizenry. And B. Because you are young, idealistic and naive, and have no idea what things would be like without the State to keep people in check.

    I don't believe the utopia is a real thing, but I think without striving for it as if it were we stand no chance of finding solutions to our biggest problems.
    Nothing wrong per se with idealism. We just need to keep you away from actual policy creation.

    Resources aren't as scarce as many believe them to be, it is a question of distribution of those resources and removing those who benefit from scarcity.
    I continue to find the idea of "anarchism" and "better resource distribution" to pretty funny. The implied good natured sharing of people without a state t compel them makes me laugh.

    The world of man is far more Walking Dead than it is Star Trek.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Capitano View Post
    Also, property (aka "mine") is hard-wired into the human psyche, good luck getting rid of that.
    Thank you Stefan Molyneux for this in depth analysis of human psychology and concepts of ownership.
    It's a legit point. If we need to prove it, I can fly over to the UK and take all your shit from you, and see how you react. Lol.


  19. #3439
    SteeleResolve's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 13, 2011
    Location
    AKA Pubbie McLemming
    Posts
    3,364
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    This is why community action is so important. Modern life has us needlessly busy and set against each other. We are the most productive we have ever been, producing almost everything we need in abundance and yet we don't have time or energy to interact with or create communities? Community spirit is lower than it ever has been, probably because nobody has found a way to make a steady profit from it.
    I know where you're coming from, and it would indeed be a better planet (for the deprived) if we could change ourselves to be like this.

  20. #3440
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    12,321
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    I think your intentions are good. I think you have a good heart (best as I can tell).

    I feel no need to shit on your idealist young, inexperienced naivety as the real truths about human nature. Humans are inherantly selfish evil creatures. When left to their own, they're never as good or selfless as you want them to be. The Libertarian/Anarchist utopia is not a real thing.

    With that said, some aspects of it may work in certain circumstances, and we should strive to be better.
    I don't believe even a significant minority of people I have met are inherently selfish or evil.
    That's because A. You live in a wealthy first world nation state that provides for your citizenry. And B. Because you are young, idealistic and naive, and have no idea what things would be like without the State to keep people in check.
    Yeah, no. Most people aren't assholes. Even in Africa they manage to be very kindly and warm to other people. It's just a small, 20-30% of the population who are assholeswho hate other people and prey on them. About the same portion as the hardcore Trump base or Brexit voters.

    :thinking:

    Basically, a 1/3 of the human population are insufferable cunts, and the world would be a much happier place without them in it.
    meh

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •