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Thread: (UK EURO THREAD) UK POLITICS MK2

  1. #3401

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    You're being incredibly vague without offering any concrete counters or even any supporting evidence.

  2. #3402

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Capitano View Post
    You're being incredibly vague without offering any concrete counters or even any supporting evidence.
    I see you've met Keckers.

  3. #3403
    Shaikar's Avatar
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    What do you think it should be replaced with?

    The recent shitshows that are Brexit and the Scottish Independence referendums seem like solid reasons against direct democracy for the lumpen proletariat that is the Great British Public(TM).

  4. #3404
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    Horizontal organisations and workers communes. I'm an anarchist at heart and accept that most people won't see eye to eye with me. Pragmatically I'm happy with any step to the left and disruption to the power of capital.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  5. #3405

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    That sounds like a paragraph philosophy freshman's paper rather than something remotely workable. The last time we went though something like this it was Sykes proposing something similar and it didn't even hold up to basic scrutiny.

  6. #3406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Djan Seriy Anaplian View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Timaios View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spawinte View Post
    So basically: break away from Labour and divide the vote, which guarantees a perpetual Tory government due to FPTP?
    It really depends. If the LD’s merge and more defections occur, who knows?
    Libdems are considered politically toxic still. They'll take them if helps them push towards 36 seats though.
    Yeh that’s my point

  7. #3407
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Capitano View Post
    That sounds like a paragraph philosophy freshman's paper rather than something remotely workable. The last time we went though something like this it was Sykes proposing something similar and it didn't even hold up to basic scrutiny.
    I'm not going to dump my philosophy on this thread because 1. I don't think you actually care and 2. I don't think I will convince you of anything and 3. I have better things to do than write it up.

    If you do care then I'll happily recommend some books which got me to where I am.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  8. #3408

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    It's not that I'm not interested, it's more that you just hand-wave theoretical utopias and never back them up with anything substantial. You wander so far into revolutionary territory that it comes across as a fantasy world, and whilst you're so dismissive of existing structures, you refuse to back up your own ideas.

  9. #3409
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    Please, not Chomsky ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  10. #3410
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Capitano View Post
    It's not that I'm not interested, it's more that you just hand-wave theoretical utopias and never back them up with anything substantial. You wander so far into revolutionary territory that it comes across as a fantasy world, and whilst you're so dismissive of existing structures, you refuse to back up your own ideas.
    Just to support Keckers a bit, I see him being rather reasonable and pragmatic in his post above, stating that he does not expect his ideals to manifest in any substantial form and is happy just with any shifts to the political left and disruption of power capital holds?

    Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point. - Blaise Pascal, Pensées, 277

  11. #3411
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Capitano View Post
    It's not that I'm not interested, it's more that you just hand-wave theoretical utopias and never back them up with anything substantial. You wander so far into revolutionary territory that it comes across as a fantasy world, and whilst you're so dismissive of existing structures, you refuse to back up your own ideas.
    I'm not a vanguardist so I don't have ideas I want to impose. There are historical precedents and structures which worked in various material environments and we can learn from but each 'revolution' is unique. I don't think we have any problems meeting the natural needs of the population (we produce enough food, energy, cultural output), but we create a whole host of horrendous human problems along the way. Look at social media as an easy top level example, or the effects of urbanisation on populations for a slightly more fundamental one.

    I think pointing out the problems with society and the hypocrisy which exists in the current hierarchy is more useful than evangelising in getting people to think about their environment and making a better world. I've no doubt if we get 10% of the population more aware of the economy and involved in politics we'll reach better solutions than anything I can think of.

    The biggest obstacle is getting people to think, part of that is freeing up time (breaking the hegemony of capital and the 40 hour week) and getting people engaged in their communities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  12. #3412

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timaios View Post
    Just to support Keckers a bit, I see him being rather reasonable and pragmatic in his post above, stating that he does not expect his ideals to manifest in any substantial form and is happy just with any shifts to the political left and disruption of power capital holds?
    Well, putting aside the problem that "left" gets increasingly vague the further you look beyond "more government intervention", he's said that parliamentary systems aren't fit for purpose, which is a rather bold assertion to make without any alternative whatsoever or even proof that it's representative democracy that's the problem.

  13. #3413

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    I'm not a vanguardist so I don't have ideas I want to impose. There are historical precedents and structures which worked in various material environments and we can learn from but each 'revolution' is unique. I don't think we have any problems meeting the natural needs of the population (we produce enough food, energy, cultural output), but we create a whole host of horrendous human problems along the way. Look at social media as an easy top level example, or the effects of urbanisation on populations for a slightly more fundamental one.

    I think pointing out the problems with society and the hypocrisy which exists in the current hierarchy is more useful than evangelising in getting people to think about their environment and making a better world. I've no doubt if we get 10% of the population more aware of the economy and involved in politics we'll reach better solutions than anything I can think of.

    The biggest obstacle is getting people to think, part of that is freeing up time (breaking the hegemony of capital and the 40 hour week) and getting people engaged in their communities.
    I don't mean to imply imposition or violence when I say "revolution", I mean it in the sense of "complete change". We have created serious problems within our current systems, but you are drawing dubious conclusions (such as representative democracy being bad) with solutions that have no evidence of actually solving these problems (more direct democracy).

    There are certainly arguments for more government intervention (moving left as you call it, but I personally dislike using left/right to describe political positions as it's excessively crude) and there are cases for pretty significant change to our system of government, but you may find that, as our resources get more limited per capita, the solution could well be more authoritarianism and less personal liberty, which is not necessarily something you personally want, as somebody who labels himself anarchist.

  14. #3414
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    As resources get limited per capita maybe we should stop selling so much shit to people that don't need it by making them feel personally inadequate. Advertising shits in your head, capitalism creates false demand, the best things in life aren't consumed they're participated in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  15. #3415

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    As resources get limited per capita maybe we should stop selling so much shit to people that don't need it by making them feel personally inadequate. Advertising shits in your head, capitalism creates false demand, the best things in life aren't consumed they're participated in.
    And here we get to the core of the matter: who defines what you do and don't need? If you say anything other than "the individual", you're straying further from anarchist to authoritarian.

  16. #3416
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    If you need a multimillion pound advertising budget to sell something I'm beginning to suspect the people might not need your product all that much.

    Customer acquisition costs are basically an externalisation of wasteful consumption.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  17. #3417

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    If you need a multimillion pound advertising budget to sell something I'm beginning to suspect the people might not need your product all that much.

    Customer acquisition costs are basically an externalisation of wasteful consumption.
    Marketing/advertising is not something that is black and white. A wildly popular product may still need a large advertising budget if it has a large geographic reach. There are certain things that I actually find difficult to find because they have an insufficient advertising budget.

    Ultimately, if the Co-Op decide they want to run a multi-million pound advertising campaign, why should you get to decide they shouldn't. Again, the problem becomes how does an anarchist stop somebody else from doing something harmful? They reject authoritarianism, so the only other tool they have is education, which I'm all for, but then who gets to set the curriculum?

  18. #3418
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    Anarchists don't reject authority, we reject unjustifiable hierarchies and top down authority/rule.

    edit: In terms of the consumer discussion, how many western brands do you think would survive without excessive labour exploitation in the third world? You don't tackle overconsumption with demand sided policy, you absolutely nail the supply side with rigorous standards.
    Last edited by Keckers; February 21 2019 at 01:03:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  19. #3419

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Anarchists don't reject authority, we reject unjustifiable hierarchies and top down authority/rule.
    It is literally about rejecting authority, or at the very least authoritarianism. After all, who's going to define the authority and who's actually going to stop you? He'll, who's going to define what's justifiable?

    Fundamentally, when you get down to it, anarchism is such a broad term that saying "I'm an anarchist" doesn't actually mean all that much.

  20. #3420

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    edit: In terms of the consumer discussion, how many western brands do you think would survive without excessive labour exploitation in the third world? You don't tackle overconsumption with demand sided policy, you absolutely nail the supply side with rigorous standards.
    But that in itself imposes problems. During the height of the Apple/Foxconn kerfuffle, Apple started imposing much stricter terms on Foxconn, including working hours. There were quite a number of Chinese workers who actually got upset at that, as working there doing long hours was their way to make a good amount of money, far more than they could have done elsewhere.

    Even making t-shirts, whilst seemingly exploitative, is actually a very good job comparatively for people in those countries and it's a stepping stone for the economy.

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