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Thread: (UK EURO THREAD) UK POLITICS MK2

  1. #11681

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    What seems weirder is the bizarre leap of logic that reducing immigration will do anything to make their lives better. What a pathetic display of victimhood.
    Because they're like Moe Szyslak: "Immigants! I knew it was them! Even when it was the bears, I knew it was them."

  2. #11682
    walrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    What seems weirder is the bizarre leap of logic that reducing immigration will do anything to make their lives better. What a pathetic display of victimhood.
    Not really. I saw some interviews from regions of uk where there is nothing but amazon warehouses etc as employers. And considering they are most likely hiring eastern europeans living in a single council flat by dozen (been there, done that at some point), they agree to work on lower wages than a regular uk bloke with family requires to be able to support himself and them. When those people complain that immigration frozen their wages and made their lives miserable I can without putting any effort understand where they are coming from.

    tl;dr real blame is on Bezoses of the world
    What's minimum wage and social dumping?
      Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    But islamism IS a product of class warfare. Rich white countries come into developing brown dictatorships, wreck the leadership, infrastructure and economy and then act all surprised that religious fanaticism is on the rise.
    Also:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenta View Post
    walrus isnt a bad poster.
    Quote Originally Posted by cullnean View Post
    also i like walrus.
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    Yer a hoot

  3. #11683
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    Sharp increases of minimum wage does not solve a lot. Usually inflation will make up for it and real buying power ends up the same or lower. Source: it's happening right now in Poland, 4.4% inflation last month and it's not the end.

  4. #11684
    Movember 2012 Zekk Pacus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    What seems weirder is the bizarre leap of logic that reducing immigration will do anything to make their lives better. What a pathetic display of victimhood.
    Not really. I saw some interviews from regions of uk where there is nothing but amazon warehouses etc as employers. And considering they are most likely hiring eastern europeans living in a single council flat by dozen (been there, done that at some point), they agree to work on lower wages than a regular uk bloke with family requires to be able to support himself and them. When those people complain that immigration frozen their wages and made their lives miserable I can without putting any effort understand where they are coming from.

    tl;dr real blame is on Bezoses of the world
    Correlation is not causation.

    Why are those areas such desolate shitholes that the only industry that can work there is minimum wage unskilled warehousing that relies on a constant cycle of disposable labour?
    'I'm pro life. I'm a non-smoker. I'm a pro-life non-smoker. WOO, Let the party begin!'

  5. #11685
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    That's a topic for another discussion entirely, I was just addressing Keckers' comment that it requires bizzare leap of logic for people to think that reducing immigration will make their lives better when in reality it's really simple, basic train of thought required to reach that conclusion. And realizing that again makes it easier to understand why it's so prevalent among less educated or simply dumb people.

  6. #11686

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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Sharp increases of minimum wage does not solve a lot. Usually inflation will make up for it and real buying power ends up the same or lower. Source: it's happening right now in Poland, 4.4% inflation last month and it's not the end.
    Counter-point: the USA and the UK

  7. #11687
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    What seems weirder is the bizarre leap of logic that reducing immigration will do anything to make their lives better. What a pathetic display of victimhood.
    Not really. I saw some interviews from regions of uk where there is nothing but amazon warehouses etc as employers. And considering they are most likely hiring eastern europeans living in a single council flat by dozen (been there, done that at some point), they agree to work on lower wages than a regular uk bloke with family requires to be able to support himself and them. When those people complain that immigration frozen their wages and made their lives miserable I can without putting any effort understand where they are coming from.

    tl;dr real blame is on Bezoses of the world
    Correlation is not causation.

    Why are those areas such desolate shitholes that the only industry that can work there is minimum wage unskilled warehousing that relies on a constant cycle of disposable labour?
    Careful, that sounds like a structural analysis
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  8. #11688
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    That's a topic for another discussion entirely, I was just addressing Keckers' comment that it requires bizzare leap of logic for people to think that reducing immigration will make their lives better when in reality it's really simple, basic train of thought required to reach that conclusion. And realizing that again makes it easier to understand why it's so prevalent among less educated or simply dumb people.
    I think the point is that the conclusion is wrong.

    Not so much that is easy to arrive at.

    (though with Keckers, you never know)
    Yup. Again what I am saying it's not that it requires bizzare leap of logics or some other actual brain work. Complete opposite, it's the most basic, easiest to arrive at conclusion. And easily used to manipulate masses as proven again and again by history.

  9. #11689
    Movember 2012 Zekk Pacus's Avatar
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    So you agree that the easily reachable conclusion is not correct.

    Cool.
    'I'm pro life. I'm a non-smoker. I'm a pro-life non-smoker. WOO, Let the party begin!'

  10. #11690
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    I don't agree it is even an easily reachable 'default' conclusion unless there is an information environment which makes you view anyone outside your immediate community with suspicion.

    It is a manufactured tension between members of the working class in an environment which actively invests in smashing any lines of social solidarity.

    inb4 Barth "class war doesn't exist though" despite agreeing with everything else.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  11. #11691
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    He never said it was correct, the fact that it isn’t seems to be immaterial to his point.

    People don’t think critically and make evidence-based decisions. Quelle surprise.

  12. #11692
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    I don't agree it is even an easily reachable 'default' conclusion unless there is an information environment which makes you view anyone outside your immediate community with suspicion.

    It is a manufactured tension between members of the working class in an environment which actively invests in smashing any lines of social solidarity.

    inb4 Barth "class war doesn't exist though" despite agreeing with everything else.
    And wrong again, that how we biologically and as societies were conditioned to behave for entire human species history until very recently. Not my family, tribe, nation (dare to say ideology subscribed to nowadays?)? Suspicion as default by far at least, or even sticking with sharp stick, throwing rocks, shooting with bow or firearm.

    I also don't believe it's manufactured, as in there is someone with an intent, actively working for it to rise. I do agree that tensions are there, I feel it's just the result of a lot factors that are not being orchestrated by someone's actual effort.

  13. #11693
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    You aren't going to find many anthropologists who agree with that sweeping assessment of human evolutionary psychology.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  14. #11694

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yankunytjatjara View Post
    So fixing genetic predisposition to stuff like cancer or degenerative diseases is eugenics?
    Where on the slope do we stop and how is it different from not letting certain groups of people procreate naturally? Hereditary heart conditions? Autism? Myopia? Gingers?

  15. #11695
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    You aren't going to find many anthropologists who agree with that sweeping assessment of human evolutionary psychology.
    That humans have a natural and exploitable tendency to "in group / out group" dynamics? (which is what he's saying but phrased less contentiously).

    You're trying to do the same by arguing that the more useful in-group / out-group set up for workers is class based not national.

    Which is why I disagree with his assertion that the particular groupings aren't manufactured.

  16. #11696

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    You aren't going to find many anthropologists who agree with that sweeping assessment of human evolutionary psychology.
    If the last four years have taught us anything, it's that we've had enough of so-called experts.

  17. #11697
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Quaan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yankunytjatjara View Post
    So fixing genetic predisposition to stuff like cancer or degenerative diseases is eugenics?
    Where on the slope do we stop and how is it different from not letting certain groups of people procreate naturally? Hereditary heart conditions? Autism? Myopia? Gingers?
    Eton attendance?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    You aren't going to find many anthropologists who agree with that sweeping assessment of human evolutionary psychology.
    That humans have a natural and exploitable tendency to "in group / out group" dynamics? (which is what he's saying but phrased less contentiously).

    You're trying to do the same by arguing that the more useful in-group / out-group set up for workers is class based not national.

    Which is why I disagree with his assertion that the particular groupings aren't manufactured.
    I think the 'groups' are manufactured due to external pressures and not inherent to the human psyche. I don't believe people default to hate in a vacuum.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  18. #11698
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    There's a difference between saying "the particular subject of out-group hatred is manufactured" and "out-group hatred is entirely manufactured".

    Bias, up to an including hatred, against out-groups is a normal part of the human condition. Deliberately focussing that hatred on a particular group for political gain is the outcome of human intent.

    I do agree that blaming Immigrants for taking jobs / keeping wages low is a manufactured target. In the same way Britishness is a manufactured construct that makes people think BoJo is one of them and on their side.

    I don't agree with dismissing it as non-existent or as easy to overcome for an individual on whom that process of indoctrination has acted.

    Tl;dr the human tendency to default to us/them dichotomies is normal, which us/them dichotomies form is manufactured.
    Last edited by Kai; February 19 2020 at 01:20:40 PM.

  19. #11699
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas Quaan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yankunytjatjara View Post
    So fixing genetic predisposition to stuff like cancer or degenerative diseases is eugenics?
    Where on the slope do we stop and how is it different from not letting certain groups of people procreate naturally? Hereditary heart conditions? Autism? Myopia? Gingers?
    On the contrary, not only doesn't it prevent procreation. It even doesn't work if a couple hasn't already decided to procreate. And pretty strongly - fertility clinics are not for casuals...

    Example. Say that your gingers provocation happens to become true. That group wouldn't - even then - be being prevented from reproducing; rather, the group would be changing itself by altering its reproduction mechanisms. Not so different than certain athletes expressly choosing partners for breeding. No prevention => no eugenics. Of course when you apply a social media lens we need to be a bit more cautious, fads might induce group thinking so much that you could speak of trend induced eugenics, but that's varying so far from the nazi kind as to probably need a new word. Eugmoronics? Eumemics? Eumemics seems spot on actually.
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  20. #11700
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    There's a difference between saying "the particular subject of out-group hatred is manufactured" and "out-group hatred is entirely manufactured".

    Bias, up to an including hatred, against out-groups is a normal part of the human condition. Deliberately focussing that hatred on a particular group for political gain is the outcome of human intent.

    I do agree that blaming Immigrants for taking jobs / keeping wages low is a manufactured target. In the same way Britishness is a manufactured construct that makes people think BoJo is one of them and on their side.

    I don't agree with dismissing it as non-existent or as easy to overcome for an individual on whom that process of indoctrination has acted.

    Tl;dr the human tendency to default to us/them dichotomies is normal, which us/them dichotomies form is manufactured.
    Yup, you're right. My assertion that it's not manufactured falls flat on it's arse when you actually try to think about it. There are people that are actively doing it here even. It was just optimist in rose-tinted glasses in me speaking.

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