CCP finally realise high sec wars are hurting player numbers.

[Joshua Foiritain]

Wardecs in their current form are dumb and bad for the game, have been since day one. Being able to murder structures and shitting on alliances in trade hubs is fine but allowing the worlds most risk averse faggots to shit on new players for easy killmails is silly.

I always thought it was risk adverse faggots shitting on other risk adverse faggots.

Err not really, its risk averse faggots who should know better against risk averse noobs dont know better.

Eve is a difficult game to figure out, it takes either a lot of time on your own or slightly less time while someone is holding your hand. This was true when you compared eve to other mmos 15 years ago and is a hell of a lot more true when compared to todays mmos.

Playing eve requires a mentality shift from 'casual no risk safetynet fun times' into a more serious 'if you fuck up you get punished and the only one to blame is yourself' mindset that many players dont expect in videogames. This change takes time and moves at a different pace for people.

The vast majority of new players that try eve aren't prepared for this, take it up the ass and quit. Now you can go all 'haha well they're weak faggots good riddance' but eve actually needs new players pretty badly. Losing a chunk of these new players just so a small group of highsec wardeccers can jerk each other off over the number of t1 frigs they've killed is dumb.

Quite a few of these new players will eventually rage quit anyway simply because they cannot get used to way eve works, eve has always been a niche game. But if you can reduce the quitting ratio from 95% to 85% simply by providing a bit more safety for noobs in highsec then that's well worth the trade.

Not to mention this only comes at the cost of upsetting eve's most cowardly babies, that alone makes it worth it tbh because fucking with those pussies is comedy gold.

As for ganking, i dont see that going anywhere anytime soon.

When the carebears have gotten their wish of nerfing wardecs into the ground then the former wardec corps like PIRAT
will resume normal course and become full grown ganking only corps/alliances. And newbs will die to them instead and then the
carebears, as they already do, will demand that ganking be stopped in high-sec.

No they wont. Ganking would mean losing ships which is something most highsec wardeccers cant handle.

Ganking rando noobs in t1 frigs/dessies/cruisers all across eve is significantly more work for much less reward then ganking freighters in highway systems or barges around starter systems.

[Virtuozzo]

So basically Oveur's ego legacy still haunts retention.

[Sacul]

The Safe against ganking starter Systems include No wardec right? Is there a Limit how long you can stay there? Time or sp?

Started in 2005 so i have No clue.

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[Meester]

It's averse you troglodyte

You are right.

[jimmychrist]

So basically Oveur's ego legacy still haunts retention.

I always figured wardecs are in the game because new and prospective players expect them to be. Same with bounties. CCP not being able to wrangle the systems to actually work in practice doesn't matter because their real job is selling the game.

[Pattern]

Ban alts and you fix 90% of the problems with high sec eve online

[jonesbones]

I never understood how a corp/alliance could be at war with more than a few other corps/alliances. Like, in what world would CONCORD/the empires allow corps to just go around blowing shit up for a couple million a month?

Someone had a good idea where corps/alliances could pay the NPC tax rate in order to be undeccable. No nullbears would do this since they would lose so much in bounties. But high sec tards could be protected for a cost. You can still suicide gank them if they sit in shiney shit.

NINJA EDIT: Structures can always be shot, you just get a suspect flag. So you if want to bear in high sec in peace you gotta use cheap ships and no structures.

[Keckers]

Ban alts and you fix 90% of the problems with high sec eve online

You'd fix 100% of the problem since the game would almost immediately die.

[tighten]

Systems that are free of Dec's and flags.....

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[Meester]

I never understood how a corp/alliance could be at war with more than a few other corps/alliances. Like, in what world would CONCORD/the empires allow corps to just go around blowing shit up for a couple million a month?

Its actually explained in the lore.

[mewninn]

The vast majority of new players that try eve aren't prepared for this, take it up the ass and quit. Now you can go all 'haha well they're weak faggots good riddance' but eve actually needs new players pretty badly. Losing a chunk of these new players just so a small group of highsec wardeccers can jerk each other off over the number of t1 frigs they've killed is dumb.

Quite a few of these new players will eventually rage quit anyway simply because they cannot get used to way eve works, eve has always been a niche game. But if you can reduce the quitting ratio from 95% to 85% simply by providing a bit more safety for noobs in highsec then that's well worth the trade.

Did injectors not bring any improvement to retention rates?

I remember bringing in lots of not-dumb people, and the universal turnoff was the amount of time required to get off the ground and be more than a cripple

[Suitonia]

Removing wardecs is a dumb idea if the end result is that you have untouchables in high sec.

Which is exactly what will happen and eve will be more forward on the path to wowification.
Eve is meant to be harsh and really the people who are advocating for wardec removal are
the same kind of people that have always advocated it i.e carebears and people who couldn't hack it.
First they came for the wardecs, then they come for the ganking.

Appealing to scrubs only ends in tears as experienced by Star Wars Galaxies.

You can be just as 'untouchable' in highsec by being in an NPC corp or 1 man/private corps with just your alts that can you disband and re-create whenever you get wardecced, that is the main issue IMO. It's stupid that the optimal way to play eve in highsec is to be in an NPC corporation. And it costs CCP money, and us, the players better PVP content because small groups of friends or start up casual corporations in highsec are just killed outright, instead of given the opportunity to grow organically and then maybe take the plunge into wormhole space, lowsec or nullsec when they feel that they are ready, or install industry structures in highsec. Which would be far more beneficial to most of us interested in PVP that isn't killing a bantam with a Proteus with 2 neutral nestor alts, damnation links and HG slaves.

A lot of these casual players just want a name and a badge, eve is an incredibly social game, whether or not someone joins a corporation in their first month is a huge deciding factor into whether or not they'll continue playing the game or not. Pretty much any corporation that recruits more than 20 people a week gets insta-decced because wardeccers just spam blanket wardecs on corporations with high membership deltas, as well as pretty much the top 50+ membership alliances. Highsec wardecs is the #1 reason why players quit the game, yet they are completely inconsequential to any person who is invested in the game or is in an organised group with neutral hauling alts/JF services etc. Wardeccers just pray on casual players while exposing themselves to as little risk as possible, in many ways the wardeccing groups are just as 'carebare-ish' as the people they kill.

I don't think they should remove them, rather, I really like the idea of declaring war on a corporation with a structure from a structure.

This means you have 2 tiers of corporations, those who own structures, and those that do not. Casual Corporations won't be able to have Athanors, Raitarus or any meaningful highsec industy, Wardeccers will also have to expose themselves to at least some level of risk. The biggest problem and imbalance in my opinion is there is no way to end the war as the defender, and no way to make the attackers fight. What usually happens of course is the wardeccers just hug the jita or amarr undock, or pipes in HG slaved Proteus' or other high EHP/Resistance ships with multiple logistic alts, scouts and links. Run from anyone with half as many ships as them without any of the extras. P. much anyone who has ever taken a gang to fight wardeccers with an equal gang will be staring at the jita 4-4 station model.

This makes highsec mercs relevant again (Hire mercs as allys to kill the wardeccers structure to free yourself from the war), also means that battles over actual objectives can happen in highsec. There currently are very few wars fought over actual objectives in highsec, only the occasional citadel bash or POCO bash has any resistance where both sides fight a pitched battle.

[Meester]

I remember bringing in lots of not-dumb people, and the universal turnoff was the amount of time required to get off the ground and be more than a cripple

Then it is peoples perceptions that are wrong and not the game itself if they think that eve is a game to be sped run.
Don't get me wrong it is possible to 'speed run' in eve but that is not really the premise of the game.

[Sacul]

Eve Vegas speech says only hisec Wars against a corp that has stations, starting in november.

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[Shaikar]

Which is pretty retarded if the goal is to try to keep wardecs mostly focused on people who can and will fight back and not, for example, small starter or indy corps so they can grow a bit rather than get stomped as soon as they stick their heads out of their shells.
It also screws over smaller pvp/fw/rp corps, who now need whatever the cheapest structure anchoring somewhere as some sort of bizarre PVP enablement totem, so existing wardecs can continue to be pursued.

In other words it's a classic CCP solution; one that doesn't fix the problem but does add some extra random overhead.

[Alistair]

EVE's High-Sec system of nonconsentual PvP + permaloss + "War" Decs may be the single dumbest thing about it from a business/player retention standpoint.

EVE as an ongoing concern would have been vastly better with a total ban high-sec ganking and non-mutual Wars. And those who wanted to fight could have had all of low-sec and null-sec to fight over, the only thing lost would be the scummiest type of kitten-murdering e-hardman players.

EVE's players are EVE's own worst enemy. Endless scammers and gankers/noob-deccers and "hardned the fuck up pussy" trash talk just makes EVE what is is, ultra fringe and slowly wasting away.

[Virtuozzo]

EVE's High-Sec system of nonconsentual PvP + permaloss + "War" Decs may be the single dumbest thing about it from a business/player retention standpoint.

EVE as an ongoing concern would have been vastly better with a total ban high-sec ganking and non-mutual Wars. And those who wanted to fight could have had all of low-sec and null-sec to fight over, the only thing lost would be the scummiest type of kitten-murdering e-hardman players.

EVE's players are EVE's own worst enemy. Endless scammers and gankers/noob-deccers and "hardned the fuck up pussy" trash talk just makes EVE what is is, ultra fringe and slowly wasting away.

It's been dumb right off the bat. Problem was, there were some ego's (at CCP) who loved their own gratification while the evolution of these mechanisms were in line with the word of mouth marketing as EVE still had its initial growth tracks. Once EVE moved on from that, the ego drama continued. If we're really, really honest, it's an old problem of CCP's own doing. I remember quite a few evenings on coldfront irc with players and devs of that day and age with players (and some devs) warning the awesome crowd devs from various angles, always shut down by the same set of devs in the same mannerisms. At various points during the early days it even came to - shall we say - incidents between players and devs inside the game dynamic on these topics, some of which went surprisingly far due to dumb spaghetti code. Huzzah for tanking Concord.

Ganking as suicide tactics wasn't up there with wardec concepts in terms of measurable impact (seriously, it's not like these metrics are new, on the contrary), it was a niche that contributed to marketing without negatively impacting marketing, until it became a church. After a while that too became stupidly visible in retention metrics, but I gather CCP only risks dealing with one bit of old poo at a time.

The raw irony is that eve player behaviour models were based on old ccpian behaviour models. Which made for a painful road of getting shoved aside, and which makes for a painful mirror. Stuff like this had to change at some point, it was never a case of "if", but "when". And "how", that's even more important now.


Remember when Hilmar said that EVE was a ship with a leak in the bottom? Not wrong. His solution is to move the ship to a different ocean. Not going to plug the leak, but the ship won't rock as much nor will it run as deep. So the pumps should be able to handle it fine, and as every new pump is designed to make money, it's a new kind of awesome.


I guess my only concern is that CCP will not come up with something actually tangible and flexible. Instead either half-assed half-aborted evolution, or overcompensating towards the far opposite end of the scale at some point.

[Meester]

EVE's High-Sec system of nonconsentual PvP + permaloss + "War" Decs may be the single dumbest thing about it from a business/player retention standpoint.

EVE as an ongoing concern would have been vastly better with a total ban high-sec ganking and non-mutual Wars.

And how would enemy assets be targeted in high-sec say a Goon high-sec shell corp? Why would anyone want to fight an untouchable enemy?

[Lady Spank]

I'm astounded every year eve survives despite the hostility of high sec aka newb space. Imagine any other game surviving with a similar attitude to new players and those wanting non-hostile space to chill in.

[Meester]

I'm astounded every year eve survives despite the hostility of high sec aka newb space. Imagine any other game surviving with a similar attitude to new players and those wanting non-hostile space to chill in.

It survives because of the hostility, not despite it.

Who wants to hear stories of Rorqual mining? [goons]