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Thread: CCP finally realise high sec wars are hurting player numbers.

  1. #41
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meester View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Spank View Post
    I'm astounded every year eve survives despite the hostility of high sec aka newb space. Imagine any other game surviving with a similar attitude to new players and those wanting non-hostile space to chill in.
    It survives because of the hostility, not despite it.
    CCP claims otherwise. Truth be told, they're not wrong. For the purposes of conditions required for CCP's targets the proverbial HTFU+shark culture is detrimental.

    So either get CCP to show the raw metrics so check for holes, assumptions or simple statistics matching purposes as required, or get over it.
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

  2. #42
    Meester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtuozzo View Post
    CCP claims otherwise. Truth be told, they're not wrong.
    You could say that kind of thing about any game that doesn't appeal to the everyman.
    And like anything that tries to appeal to the lowest common denominator it will ultimately fail due to unrealistic expectations.
    CCP have not had their eye on the ball for a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virtuozzo View Post
    So either get CCP to show the raw metrics so check for holes, assumptions or simple statistics matching purposes as required, or get over it.
    As if CCP truly listens these days

    What CCP's metrics show is human nature. They have a taste and decide its not for them.
    You think if the devs of Dark Souls got rid of the challenge then they would attract more of an audience?
    CCP react, they don't take the initiative. Instead of trying to create a demographic they think tryng to incorporate an existing one will be easier.
    What I predict will happen is as soon as CCP remove any meaningful andopen-world interaction with consequences then people who like those things will leave.
    Inflation will rise and carebears will begin clamouring for no ganking in high-sec which CCP are probably dumb enough to remove as well.

    Pvp will continue to have less meaning because there will be less losses and inflation will drive new players away.
    Pvp with less meaning will not be attractive to pvpers so they will leave. There will be less small alliances because
    the large ones will take control and due to people leaving the game. The pvers who now have to pay a billion for a cruiser
    will get tired of there being no-one to interact with and move to Star Citizen and other pve games. The game shuts
    down and the carebears will be wondering what went wrong. There is also the prevalence of instant action games going around,
    Eve does not supply that so new players will be turned off by that too.



    Last edited by Meester; October 27 2018 at 03:54:08 AM.

  3. #43
    dominus's Avatar
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    So.. i won EVE few months after WWB.. thats how long now? year, two?

    after such a long time got an itch, and downloaded client, logged in.. nostalgia i guess

    Anyone can give me a Tl;dr on what happened in EVE since than?

    Politicaly and game mechanics wise? I red recent stuff about wardeccing, good riddance to that faggotry..

  4. #44
    Meester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dominus View Post
    So.. i won EVE few months after WWB.. thats how long now? year, two?

    after such a long time got an itch, and downloaded client, logged in.. nostalgia i guess

    Anyone can give me a Tl;dr on what happened in EVE since than?

    Politicaly and game mechanics wise? I red recent stuff about wardeccing, good riddance to that faggotry..
    The Imperium is victorious in the north for the moment. Goons live in Delve. Everyone is currently backstabbing one another.

    Citadels are everywhere, assault frigates and muninns are good, Black Legion came back, DRF [drone region federation] was kicked out of its territory and
    no longer exists, pos's are soon to be replaced, TEST were killed by PL and co in Vale after they helped in WWB and now reign supreme in Catch and Esoteria with a fair number of allies.
    We have abyssal deadspace for getting triglavian ships and abyssal modules which didn't break the game as the mouthbreathers predicted. ECM finally got changed.
    Various ship redesigns [see osprey], defender missiles work against bombs. Outposts and conquerable npc stations were turned into faction citadels.
    Jump fatigue got a rework. Moon mining is no longer passive. Rorquals are king. In-game ship fitting simulation added. More skins. Flyable concord ships.
    Tech 3 cruiser rebalance. Eve has a ftp mode. Command links can no longer be used off-grid.

  5. #45
    Aliventi's Avatar
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    WHs are where you are most likely to find the Eve you remember/played the game for.

  6. #46
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Yeah but having to scan and manage bookmarks for everything after a few cans is fucking annoying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  7. #47
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meester View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    EVE's High-Sec system of nonconsentual PvP + permaloss + "War" Decs may be the single dumbest thing about it from a business/player retention standpoint.

    EVE as an ongoing concern would have been vastly better with a total ban high-sec ganking and non-mutual Wars.
    And how would enemy assets be targeted in high-sec say a Goon high-sec shell corp? Why would anyone want to fight an untouchable enemy?
    They wouldn't be.

    Because if they're in High-Sec, they're not fighting to hold Null-Sec, are they?

    In your example, Goons null-sec holdings would all be "touchable" as would any and all Goons in low and null-sec, as would any goons (or goon slaves) moving things from high-sec to low-sec.

    Hardly "untouchable".

    1. Shrink High-Sec by ~25%. Expanding Low-Sec.

    2. War Declarations continue, but not in High-Sec.

    3. Cut profits of high-sec activities.

    4. Kill off Jump Freighters and other Jumpable logistics. One of the worst design decisions EVE made, making logistics near-on risk free for everyone half competent.

    5. Yes, High-Sec would be safe. Yes, high-sec would allow carebears to live without ever PvP'ing. Fine and fine, at least those bears would be subbed, part of the market, and word of mouthing EVE to friends.

    6. And if you really have a hard-on to murder kittens, Dec away. But you'll only be able to murder them if they go to lawless low-sec or null-sec. If they want to hang out in downtown in high-sec with all the cops at the donut shop, they'll be safe.

    OH, how sad, camping the undock of high-sec capitals to murder miners and small noob corps would no longer be a thing, pity the poor pirate his loss of fun. Oh wait, no, fuck him. Game's better off without him, and maybe, just maybe, that pirate would grow a pair and do their murdering in low- and null-sec where such activity belongs.

    Doesn't matter, it's almost assuredly far too late to save EVE now, from it's vile players and it's own ownership's misguided development priorities.


  8. #48
    Armyofme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post

    4. Kill off Jump Freighters and other Jumpable logistics.
    This, sooooo much this

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  9. #49
    Cosmin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armyofme View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post

    4. Kill off Jump Freighters and other Jumpable logistics.
    This, sooooo much this
    I always thought of JFs as more of a QOL thing rather than abusable stuff. I would imagine most lowsec PvP entities withering away and dying without getting a steady supply of ships reasonably quickly replaced.

    If you think it's fun to try to go into Black Rise with a freighter or any escort play in general, then honestly you should find a BDSM game to play. EvE is frustrating and annoying enough without this, and it would kill certain player retention even more. Sure, you can apply to one of the nullsec blocs that feed you everything you need and you only need to carry yourself over to their space, but lowsec would just be completely murdered.

    Not that lowsec isn't dead (insert other EvE is dying stuff here).
    Guns make the news, science doesn't.

  10. #50
    Shaikar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armyofme View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post

    4. Kill off Jump Freighters and other Jumpable logistics.
    This, sooooo much this
    Yep.
    Logistics is (or should be) an essential part of pvp, just as the economy should be - the background that gives it some meaning. Rendering logistics relatively trivial and safe had the same effect on pvp; who cares if you lose that ship/fleet when you already have replacements on site thanks to teleporting freighters?

    It also directly contributes to the size of big nullsec groups - if a few people can keep a large alliance supplied (with sufficient ISK and motivation) then that's much easier to maintain than if you need a lot of people - and thus risk.

  11. #51
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaikar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Armyofme View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post

    4. Kill off Jump Freighters and other Jumpable logistics.
    This, sooooo much this
    Yep.
    Logistics is (or should be) an essential part of pvp, just as the economy should be - the background that gives it some meaning. Rendering logistics relatively trivial and safe had the same effect on pvp; who cares if you lose that ship/fleet when you already have replacements on site thanks to teleporting freighters?

    It also directly contributes to the size of big nullsec groups - if a few people can keep a large alliance supplied (with sufficient ISK and motivation) then that's much easier to maintain than if you need a lot of people - and thus risk.
    Exactly.

    Logistics is the key to waging War and holding territory. When EVE removed that from being a meaningful aspect of Null-Sec holding, it took away a vital weakness needed to help keep Null-Sec interesting.

    It's not purely about "fun". Holding Null-Sec and exploiting all it provides is the Fun Part. Logistics is (one) weakness others can (and should) be able attack to attack you as a Null-Sec holder.

    Logistics escorting is work, yes, but it's also an opportunity for PeeVeePee to happen. I can recall a goodly number of times Freighters got caught and escorts had to fight them off, or worse, an unescorted Freighter had to scream in comms to get folks to come try and save it.

    All due respect, the problem is too many Null-Sec holder pilots wanted all of the benefits of being in Null, without any of the work required to live there. And CCP gave in on it.


  12. #52
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    Oh god freighter convoys .... ancient nightmares, and ancient fun.

    But yeah, it did provide content, I would however argue that the map itself was a big factor in CCP not being able to provide counterbalance to player pressure and correlated retention challenges on this subject at the time. Another huge factor, whether we like it or not, was CCP itself. There simply was no cohesive long term vision as there was no structured research beyond game design mechanisms, complicated by the nature of CCP's own office politics. While players as content was an evolutionary process, CCP as a studio was unable to match this.

    And yeah, some did their absolute best to fight it with ego.

    It's never been as simple as "just the game" or "just the game design". That's always been the crux of it all. Cripes, how many people still remember CCP's old interviews where they stated to just not understand why the whole thing worked, or where they stated to strongly dislike not being able to take it where they wanted but instead were forced to follow and give up (!) being a part of it.

    The mechanistical focus in any such discussion was always less than a third of the actual debat. At the end of the day, and this may sound a bit cold, CCP decided to disregard the very thing that made eve work in the first place, which they themselves decided to bank their marketing on for over a decade, human behaviour. So sure, there's parts of players and their choices. But CCP was the business, they should have been smarter and take that into account. Instead they didn't, and every time they ended up getting suckerpunched by themselves. The story of CCP's management isn't very different from Icelandic banking :P


    This kind of discussion has however become irrelevant. It's a discussion which would have merit in an EVE based on emergent behaviour (and some other conditions in relation to CCP itself). Those days are over. As such whatever we might think or feel, it's just a case of either staying stuck in the past, or distracting from looking at how things have already changed.
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

  13. #53
    Duckslayer's Avatar
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    Holding onto a space empire was always for faggots anyway.

    Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

  14. #54
    Keckers's Avatar
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    The virgin space empire vs the chad moon mining emporium.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  15. #55
    Djan Seriy Anaplian's Avatar
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    le chad ferrogel exploit

  16. #56
    Joshua Foiritain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtuozzo View Post
    Oh god freighter convoys .... ancient nightmares, and ancient fun.
    fyp.



  17. #57

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    But ganking the poor defenseless freighters after the escorts have bailed is the epitome of exiting and fun pvp!

  18. #58
    jimmychrist's Avatar
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    People like freighter escorts because everyone fashions themselves as generals pushing little flags around a large conference table laden with maps, citing von Clausewitz and Napoleon. Someone else will have do the actual freighter escorting at 1800 ET because the generals suddenly got wife aggro or isp problems. Rotten luck, fifth week in a row, what are the odds?

  19. #59
    Donor Verite Rendition's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Foiritain View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Virtuozzo View Post
    Oh god freighter convoys .... ancient nightmares, and ancient fun.
    fyp.
    Eyup.

    I did logistics for years, and I enjoyed it. But freighter escorts were not one of those things. There's a very good reason people hate escort missions, be it in single-player games or MMOs. They're not fun; they're just work.

    If having to escort freighters came back, then there would be a line of logistics players going down the street and around the corner to jump off the closest bridge.
    Tranquility (EVE) Influence Map
    Life is absurd, but with a little effort we can make it completely ridiculous

  20. #60
    Duckslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verite Rendition View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Foiritain View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Virtuozzo View Post
    Oh god freighter convoys .... ancient nightmares, and ancient fun.
    fyp.
    Eyup.

    I did logistics for years, and I enjoyed it. But freighter escorts were not one of those things. There's a very good reason people hate escort missions, be it in single-player games or MMOs. They're not fun; they're just work.

    If having to escort freighters came back, then there would be a line of logistics players going down the street and around the corner to jump off the closest bridge.
    so win win?

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