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Thread: Pathfinder: Kingmaker

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoirAvlaa View Post
    I should give Kingmaker a go again, but man the 5 minute prebuff before every fight is CHORRRRRE
    Wrath has two ranks of mythic extended spell that all casters can get on top of the normal metamagic feats. 24 hour buffs are fucking awesome.

  2. #42

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    Does it have a "plot mode"
    technology canít solve economic and political problems

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NoirAvlaa View Post
    I should give Kingmaker a go again, but man the 5 minute prebuff before every fight is CHORRRRRE
    Wrath has two ranks of mythic extended spell that all casters can get on top of the normal metamagic feats. 24 hour buffs are fucking awesome.
    wrath also has a mod that lets you set up and cast all prebuffs with 1 button click
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    Also that didn't sound like abloo bloo to me, PM me and we can agree on a meeting spot and settle this with queensberry rules, that's a serious offer btw. I've been a member of this community since 2005 and i've never met a more toxic individual.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itiken View Post
    Does it have a "plot mode"
    What, like a story-level difficulty? Yeah, there's literally a difficulty called story mode, and you can change each individual difficulty component within that. If you want to burn through it with one of the default characters on totally automated builds and never have to think about anything but where to go or who to bash next, you can.

    @noir true, I don't use mods though. Can never be bothered, especially when the game's still getting patches so mods break every other week.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saul View Post
    Resurrecting this (Lich ftw) as one or two folks here are playing Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous and may want to chat about it. If you liked Kingmaker and haven't played Wrath yet, you absolutely should.

    Rock on with your builds and game questions, if there are any.
    Yeah, what are some basic setups to not get shit on during first half of the game that are also easy-ish to understand

    Its legit the first game where i cant figure out something playable for core/daring. I hate to admit it being an actual cRPG aficionado, but the whole D&D rule bullshit and the amount of classes etc. i'm apparently to dumb to figure out.

    I played Kingmaker on some semi-legit difficulty (i think custom settings between daring and core ) and there i just went freebooter main and melee-cleave type of party with party combat feats and pretty much no spells. Worked ok until i think chapter 6 where it turned out some CC immunity i didnt have was mandatory.


    I think i restarted WOTR like 3 times now. Last time i resigned and followed some youtube Unfair playthrough, until i realized past some early tactics dude would just cheese with greater invisibility and never enter combat ( which they fixed in some big patch a while ago).

    Now i have a level 8 Wizard main with one level in Rowdy and Longbow spec for kiting+vital strike spam (which worked nicely so far in open areas) and all the NPC party members underleveled, lol. Its still very early (not much past the first arsonist kenabres attack), so i'm p. sure its very salvageable, but i STILL dont have an idea on how a lot of shit works in this game.
    Last edited by n0th; November 14 2022 at 01:48:41 PM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by n0th View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Saul View Post
    Resurrecting this (Lich ftw) as one or two folks here are playing Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous and may want to chat about it. If you liked Kingmaker and haven't played Wrath yet, you absolutely should.

    Rock on with your builds and game questions, if there are any.
    Yeah, what are some basic setups to not get shit on during first half of the game that are also easy-ish to understand

    Its legit the first game where i cant figure out something playable for core/daring. I hate to admit it being an actual cRPG aficionado, but the whole D&D rule bullshit and the amount of classes etc. i'm apparently to dumb to figure out.

    I played Kingmaker on some semi-legit difficulty (i think custom settings between daring and core ) and there i just went freebooter main and melee-cleave type of party with party combat feats and pretty much no spells. Worked ok until i think chapter 6 where it turned out some CC immunity i didnt have was mandatory.


    I think i restarted WOTR like 3 times now. Last time i resigned and followed some youtube Unfair playthrough, until i realized past some early tactics dude would just cheese with greater invisibility and never enter combat ( which they fixed in some big patch a while ago).

    Now i have a level 8 Wizard main with one level in Rowdy and Longbow spec for kiting+vital strike spam (which worked nicely so far in open areas) and all the NPC party members underleveled, lol. Its still very early (not much past the first arsonist kenabres attack), so i'm p. sure its very salvageable, but i STILL dont have an idea on how a lot of shit works in this game.
    First thing to understand is that Core difficult isn't 'equivalent to tabletop' like it sort-of was in Kingmaker. The power spikes in Wrath are way more significant than in Kingmaker and you will routinely run into enemies with very high AC so drop it to Daring (at most) or Normal for your first playthrough. Following unfair-level guides will result in ridiculous gishes but very often they don't come online until some fairly high level, and as a result about half of them are achieved through mid-game respecs where the player takes a more standard class until they get the levels and gear to make the gish work (the rest are legit gishes but nonsensical from an RP perspective so I ignore them). You can single-class almost anything effectively until you hit Core, so would advise doing that to begin with unless you can really be sure of the value in a dip and don't mind the RP-clash dips invitably result in.

    Caster mains take longer to be useful than martials, so early game they tend to be focused on CC spells and party buffs (Grease etc.) until you've got the slots/uses-per-day to be a blaster. Expect to hide at the back plinking away uselessly until about level 6-8ish, so take tankier martial companions and healer companions until your MC comes online. Daeran, Lann (or Wendu, but go dual-wield throwing axes instead of bows), Seelah and Camellia are all good early game and none of them need dips or gishes - they're all viable in their starter class. Die hard can be useful on frontliners to give you an extra turn to heal them. Companions shouldn't be more than one level underlevel unless you messed with the leveling difficulty setting (which you want to avoid until you know what you're doing), and they'll soon catch up.

    That one dice of sneak damage from rowdy is nice for the first few levels but your bow + vital strike stops being useful the moment you can cast any decent ray spell, so bin that shit and focus on what a Wiz is good at. Ditch Rowdy and go full Wizard, take point-blank shot and precise shot (do this on anything that uses ranged attacks regardless of class) so you can hit things that are in melee without penalty. Split spells between CC and damage (grease, pit spells, glitterdust, and then ray spells and anything else that targets touch AC). Take weapon focus: ray when you can get it, metamagic: selective spell to improve CC spells once you've got a few slots of higher levels. For mythic, take mythic spell pen, abundant casting, and last stand on everything. Archmage armour is also good. Take ascendant element of your choice (especially if you're a lightning fan as most demons are naturally immune to it and AE is the only way to bypass that) Once you're around level 10 and can see where your character is going the mythic selections will get a bit easier, cause it's mostly pretty obvious what you should take.

    Remember that casters use Dex to hit in Pathfinder so don't dump dex during character creation. You can respec at Hilor (I forget which difficulty respec turns off by default, I think Core; change dif if needed) in whatever camp you happen to be based at. Look to always be targeting touch AC and take save or suck spells over save or no effect spells. Examine enemies and learn their weak stats so you can target spells with saving throws effectively (i.e. don't send reflex save spells against chars with massive dex and so on).

    Uh can't think of anything else off the top of my head. Sorry that the first advice is literally 'turn the difficulty down' but Core in Wrath is not like you would expect it to be - it's punishing as fuck because the shit you're going up against is hard to start with, then overtuned by Owlcat for a six-man party instead of the 4-man tabletop expects. Shout if you come up against anything you're not sure about or have more specific questions tho, e.g. other classes and whatnot - I just rolled with the wizard advice since you were already there.
    Last edited by Saul; November 14 2022 at 10:19:20 PM.

  7. #47

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    you can cast any decent ray spell

    What also doesnt help is that early on you have shitall spells per rest and the game tells you everywhere that rest = super bad (corruption + hidden timer before attack on kenabres).

    Also i dont think the game even explicitly tells you that there is a spell book and that you have to prepare spells, and that you also can copy from scrolls.

    I think i'ma try with difficulty way down until i have a mythic level or two.
    Last edited by n0th; November 14 2022 at 03:49:24 PM.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by n0th View Post
    you can cast any decent ray spell

    What also doesnt help is that early on you have shitall spells per rest and the game tells you everywhere that rest = super bad (corruption + hidden timer before attack on kenabres).

    Also i dont think the game even explicitly tells you that there is a spell book and that you have to prepare spells, and that you also can copy from scrolls.

    I think i'ma try with difficulty way down until i have a mythic level or two.
    Ah yeah I kinda figured you knew how spell slots etc. worked from playing Kingmaker. Watch out for the same problem on divine casters like Camelia, Sosiel etc. Honestly Sorceror is easier to manage than Wizard on a first go, just go +1 or +2 in Dex, +3 or 4 in CHA and leave the rest as is. No slots to worry about. Wizard's advantage is mostly in skill levels from high Int and learning arcane spells from scrolls, as you say.

    Corruption will almost never be a problem unless you mega-spam rests. You've probably already come across some divine whatsit in the field glowing with light, and when you click it says 'the corruption is cleansed' or something like that. They clear player corruption (tho you never get told that), so save those until your corruption hits the first level, then use them to clear it. I've had entire playthroughs where I never hit the first corruption level.

    The attack on Kenabres is the only real time that rests are a problem, but it makes zero difference in the grand scheme of things tbh. Not worth worrying about, unless you hate the attack on K fight and absolutely must avoid it.

    Once you get a couple of mythic levels you'll soon see the change. I've done sorceror as Angel and Lich and both were absolute monsters. I'm currently doing a Monster Tactician Aeon run that I need to finish (in Act 5) and have just started a Bloodrager Primalist half-orc Demon run.
    Last edited by Saul; November 14 2022 at 04:32:19 PM.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saul View Post
    Once you get a couple of mythic levels you'll soon see the change.
    I turned difficulty down to normal w/ autolevel off, respecced sorcerer, and yeah. Its easy so far, but not completely trivial, so keeping for now. I really cba actually micromanaging fights on my first playthrough, before i know exactly what i'm doing. May or may not bump up to daring in chapter 3.

    No way you can actually tell which offensive/cc spells are good/useful before trying them, certainly not from reading their descriptions lol. Ima just try everything.

    Also fuck me are there rolls and stats everywhere just for the sake of having to roll dice one more time.

    So first there is arcane spell failure chance, which is i guess a mechanic to keep casters from wearing heavy armour.
    Then there is a "concentration check" which i still have no idea what it is.
    Then you roll whether your spell hits vs. enemy spell resistance. If that succeeds you roll AGAIN whether your spell actually fully works or just half damage/CC doesnt work vs. enemy reflex/fortitude/whatever stat. Lol.

    Somehow i dodged a significant part of that when playing kingmaker with a mostly weapon-based party + minimal buffs/heals
    Last edited by n0th; November 21 2022 at 10:09:11 AM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by n0th View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Saul View Post
    Once you get a couple of mythic levels you'll soon see the change.
    I turned difficulty down to normal w/ autolevel off, respecced sorcerer, and yeah. Its easy so far, but not completely trivial, so keeping for now. I really cba actually micromanaging fights on my first playthrough, before i know exactly what i'm doing. May or may not bump up to daring in chapter 3.

    No way you can actually tell which offensive/cc spells are good/useful before trying them, certainly not from reading their descriptions lol. Ima just try everything.

    Also fuck me are there rolls and stats everywhere just for the sake of having to roll dice one more time.

    So first there is arcane spell failure chance, which is i guess a mechanic to keep casters from wearing heavy armour.
    Then there is a "concentration check" which i still have no idea what it is.
    Then you roll whether your spell hits vs. enemy spell resistance. If that succeeds you roll AGAIN whether your spell actually fully works or just half damage/CC doesnt work vs. enemy reflex/fortitude/whatever stat. Lol.

    Somehow i dodged a significant part of that when playing kingmaker with a mostly weapon-based party + minimal buffs/heals
    Normal's actually pretty well balanced for a first time through, yeah. I went up to daring on subsequent runs just cause I knew the system better and things got a lot easier as a result. And yeah lol stats and dice rolls all around, takes me right back to the 90s lol.

    Arcane failure only applies to Arcane casters (mostly Wizards), and yeah exactly right. Mage armour will always be a better option and it lasts for ages. Concentration check is applied when you try to cast a spell in melee range of an enemy. Not worth wasting early feats on imo, casters should be well back out of trouble. Maybe worth it on Woljif tho.

    Take all the spell resist feats on your wizmain and any other offensive caster. Demons have a ton of SR and there are a LOT of demons in this game. As a Wiz, leave anything in your opposed schools to other casters.

    As for what's good, anything that's just affected by SR and targets touch AC is good (i.e. any ray spell, some of the necromancy stuff). You'll get a lot of mileage out of Hellfire Ray later in the game. Battering Blast is pretty good early on.

    For anything with a saving throw, look at the description - if it's no effect on successful save, generally not good. Save or suck spells and hexes are where it's at. E.g Camelia/Ember's Evil Eye hex is a big debuff to an enemy and lasts multiple turns on failed save or one turn on a successful, so it always works, at least for a turn. Later on you can get the Chant hex and turn any single-turn effect hex into an ongoing one, which can be a great way to focus down a big nasty - Evil Eye it then Chant and have the others pile in.

    Also like I said before, don't sleep on metamagic. Selective AOE spells are the tits. If you like Nenio, heavy spec her into Illusion DC increases and watch her drop entire mobs (and some bosses) in a single turn with Weird and other Death effects.

    For buffs, Death Ward. If a character can get it, get it. The various +4 to whole party stats are great (Eagle Eye etc.). Enchant Armour spell (I forget the name, Camelia has it) for frontliners. Greater Magic weapon, ditto. Communal Resist Poison before fights, Remove Fear before/during.

    Remember you can respec at any time, so if you end up with a few spells you're not keen on, respec and choose new ones. Good luck!
    Last edited by Saul; November 22 2022 at 12:29:55 AM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by n0th View Post
    Then there is a "concentration check" which i still have no idea what it is.
    If it works like it does in D&D... concentration checks are made by casters when they take damage in the midst of casting a spell (usually). This usually happens when casting within melee range of an enemy (why are you doing this), which provokes an attack of opportunity. But it can also happen when you get hit by arrows/bolts, debris, or a spell.

    There are some spells that you cast and need to maintain concentration afterwards for the spell to stay active (sometimes up to a minute, sometimes an hour). A failed concentration check ends the spell, as does casting any other spell (PF might treat this differently, IANARL).

    The DC is the amount of damage taken. Having a high CON helps with this check.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by n0th View Post
    Then there is a "concentration check" which i still have no idea what it is.
    If it works like it does in D&D... concentration checks are made by casters when they take damage in the midst of casting a spell (usually). This usually happens when casting within melee range of an enemy (why are you doing this), which provokes an attack of opportunity. But it can also happen when you get hit by arrows/bolts, debris, or a spell.

    There are some spells that you cast and need to maintain concentration afterwards for the spell to stay active (sometimes up to a minute, sometimes an hour). A failed concentration check ends the spell, as does casting any other spell (PF might treat this differently, IANARL).

    The DC is the amount of damage taken. Having a high CON helps with this check.
    Sort of. Pathfinder works differently in some respects. It is casting a spell in melee range and provoking an attack of opportunity, but the DC is 15 +2x spell level against D20 + caster level + casting stat bonus (INT/CHA/WIS for Arcane/Spontaneous/Divine casters). Fail and you take the AOO and lose the spell, pass and you cast as normal and don't trigger the AOO.

    But you also have to take into account turn-based vs. realtime with pause. In RTWP, you can take damage while casting on the longer cast duration spells, in which case the DC is 10 + damage + spell level, against the same caster roll. In turn-based mode, even the longest duration cast is still a single turn action, so chances of needing a damage-based concentration check are basically nil, unless you're taking per-tick damage from something.

  13. #53
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    All this suddenly sounds way too complicated and time consuming to understand for what I'm able to handle right now.
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  14. #54

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    Pretty sure you can lower difficulty further, have companions autolevel, turn on combat AI, make main character big boi with big stick/snypa/dude with an OP pet, and progress through the game while (mostly) not caring about D&D combat mechanic details.

    Its (kinda) what i did in Kingmaker, where i skipped most of the magic/spells (except some obvious buffs and healing) where possible because i found it too confusing.
    Just picked a weapon type for each companion to spec into and pretty much made everyone melee with party feats.
    Those are generally much easier to understand.

    (i did get shit on in act 6 and never finished though )
    Last edited by n0th; November 22 2022 at 11:46:56 AM.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowa [NSN] View Post
    All this suddenly sounds way too complicated and time consuming to understand for what I'm able to handle right now.
    Like Noth says, difficulty is mega customisable and there's no need to main a caster. Leave companions on auto-level and they'll do just fine at normal difficulty or lower. Most of the dice roll stuff is under the hood anyway - you can mouseover rolls in the combat log etc. if you're finding stuff isn't working and figure out why. All that complexity in my last post boils down to 'don't put casters in melee range'.

    Shout here if you want build tips for the first go based on what you fancy, can help with stats etc. so you don't have to redo stuff down the line.

    You can turn down crusade difficulty to 'story' to breeze through the crusade management stuff, would recommend.

    @Noth Act 6 of Kingmaker is renowned for being painful. Wrath does not have the same problem.
    Last edited by Saul; November 22 2022 at 02:12:02 PM.

  16. #56
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    I'm pretty low on hitpoints right now, am running low on healing potions, and out of spell slots. Will the attack on the Defender's Heart happen after my first rest, or can I sally forth to other areas for a while before I need to deal with the hordes?
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordstern View Post
    I'm pretty low on hitpoints right now, am running low on healing potions, and out of spell slots. Will the attack on the Defender's Heart happen after my first rest, or can I sally forth to other areas for a while before I need to deal with the hordes?
    That attack is timed to occur about three days after you escape the maze (I can't find an exact figure), so I can't give you a definitive answer. It'll depend on how much time you spent traveling around the city and how many rests you took while traveling. Some people theorise that if you do the Tower of Estrod before the battle you get more time, since it's where the demons are forming up to attack. There are 'optimal' exploration routes online and an achievement if you get to the Chapel without the tavern attack event firing.

    You'll get a chance to rest and refresh before the fight no matter what happens if you're worried about spell slots etc. The game isn't shitty enough to throw you into that fight unprepared unless you actively choose to.

  18. #58

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    I played a bunch more during the holidays, early act 4 and my party is finally popping off to the point where i bumped up the difficulty to core mid act 3 with slight tweaks (respecs on and story crusade difficulty).

    I discovered a youtuber "cRPG bro", other than his annoying voice and the usual clickbaity captions his content is very good. Copied a lot of stuff from his guides. Key takeaways/random non-obvious stuff:

    - game has a shitton of different buffs. No single character can cover all or even most of them. Most harder encounters are pretty much pre-stack every buff possible (which is annoying, apparently there are even addons for that) and then autoattack to victory with your casters popping some debuff/CC.

    - Pets are very strong because its basically an extra party member to stack all the buffs on and also because of dogs/wolfs trip ability (knockdown) which actually works a lot of the time from early on. Mounted combat is extra OP cause your horse pet also does all the tanking and you both always benefit from all teamwork feats you+your horse have. Downside of pets: pathing (especially in corridors etc) and extra micro (saddle up after every rest and cinematics)

    - i started expecting to be able to spec into a "cast fireball for dps" type of caster, there is no such thing for at least the first half of the game. Ember is i think the closest to that and other than the occasional hellfire ray i do not use any dps spells with her (at least so far).

    - you can stack ground effects. I managed a hard optional boss fight (act2 i think) by pre spamming the shit out of web and grease onto an area i had the boss run into, then pewpewing from range while he was perma-CCd, because he had to roll past every instance of the CC spell on the ground to move/get up.

    - Evil Eye (AC) hex (ember and camellia have it from like level 4) ALWAYS works on most mobs (some are immune) and can also stack. I still use it a lot for debuffing AC

    - companions are all legit party options. The only custom character you really want if you're into min-maxing even a tiny bit is a Skald, cause its a source of OP buffs that you can't get elsewhere (also its just one klick in terms of micro).

    - noteworthy spells other than buffs/early CC: greater command:halt (AoE stun) is giga OP. Enervation (temporary level drain) is nice because it actualy works most of the time.

    - Domains are another thing i did not really understand until guides, they are basically extra abilities. Universally good ones are: community and madness. With community at level 8 once a day you can cast a big ground AoE that buffs all stats of your party a TON. With madness you get an ability that for three rounds on one character buffs one of AC/skill checks/attack rolls a LOT, debuffs the other two by the same amount.

    - Angel Mythic Path is kinda meh for me so far (the mythic spellbook is not doing much for my cavalier character), from what i understand you're supposed to go Trickster if you want maximum out of your weapons. But apparently Angel the most lore-heavy/voiced, so i'm good.

    - turn-based for any challenging fight, for me realtime with pause is just too annoying to actually micromanage.
    Last edited by n0th; January 2 2023 at 03:54:01 PM.

  19. #59
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    Yeah that's all fair, though most of the mythic paths have something for martial characters, not just trickster. Angel definitely has the most content overall, but not to the extent that you'd feel like you're missing out by taking any of the other paths. It's pretty cool seeing the little differences between the mythic paths over different playthroughs; Lich has been my favourite so far.

    Agree on turn-based for any fight that isn't a trash mob. It's just so much easier to control.

    So you respecced from the Wizard to a Cavalier? I had one in my Lich playthrough but didn't use him very often. I've not bothered with pets or mounted combat for precisely the reasons you describe tbh. Glad you found a class you could settle on in the end!

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    I first went from wizard to sorc, cause fuck preparing spells

    Then i realized that i cant do what i would do in an rpg game normally - spec into a school of magic and have those spells be the main character utility. PF just doesnt work like that. For each level of your respective spell book you need to know and pick OP spells (if any) and use them.

    And also i was originally going for summons and turns out summons are little else than meatshield/distraction.

    Then i found said min-max guides for all the companions, and there really is enough spellcasting between sosiel/ember/daeran/camellia/nenio
    so i figured i want something simple and effective for my main character. So respecced cavalier with fauchard and all the crit/attacks of opportunity fishing tech (well apparently not all of it since i'm not a trickster, but its absolutely good enough)

    So far i only had to skip playful darkness in act 3, which (from what i've read) requires cheese tactics which i cant currently setup with my active party. Apparently Daeran is supposed to have the tech needed (level 7 swarm summons which dude cant damage lol), and i only used daeran for the companion quest and he is like level 6.

    I may or may not save-scum my way into polymorphing the guy if i'm really bored (needs a natural 1 on a save from what i understand), but doesnt seem worth at the moment.
    Last edited by n0th; January 5 2023 at 10:08:03 AM.

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