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Thread: National Brotherhood Week (USA Civil Unrest Thread)

  1. #441
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    police forces generally need to move to a degree focused education, but to incentivise need higher wages and more access to health and mental support. I don't really know much about other countries training, but the UK has started (slowly) to move to this https://www.college.police.uk/What-w...nticeship.aspx

    smarter cops, a pay reason to incentivise dealing with the horrific shit they have to deal with and the support framework there to help them.

    downsides will be if you want the same operational coverage, you're going to have to eventually pay the same amount (and no force is happy with their staffing levels) of cops a higher wage. worth it? I think so. As a tiny example i deal with cops in my force (i do work for firefighters and lol pcc's too) for training on how to generally not be a dickhead on the interwebs, and with the media. there's is a shocking difference in the...ability to take in information between the new cops and the boys who have been at it for 10+ years
    A smaller number of better cops would be in everyone's interest I would have thought
    "But the police are the THIN BLUE LINE between ORDER and ANARCHY! We can't DECREASE the number of cops on the street! You're soft on crime!"
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
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  2. #442
    Super Chillerator Global Moderator teds :D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    police forces generally need to move to a degree focused education, but to incentivise need higher wages and more access to health and mental support. I don't really know much about other countries training, but the UK has started (slowly) to move to this https://www.college.police.uk/What-w...nticeship.aspx

    smarter cops, a pay reason to incentivise dealing with the horrific shit they have to deal with and the support framework there to help them.

    downsides will be if you want the same operational coverage, you're going to have to eventually pay the same amount (and no force is happy with their staffing levels) of cops a higher wage. worth it? I think so. As a tiny example i deal with cops in my force (i do work for firefighters and lol pcc's too) for training on how to generally not be a dickhead on the interwebs, and with the media. there's is a shocking difference in the...ability to take in information between the new cops and the boys who have been at it for 10+ years
    A smaller number of better cops would be in everyone's interest I would have thought
    no, aside from maybe the met no force is currently well staffed enough to be able cover general beat patrols (visibility in towns/villages), roads crime (speeding is almost essentially farmed out to pcso's at the moment), the very dark shit like domestic abuse, child sexual abuse and the big upcoming one, digital crime) amonsgt others like being able to provide 24/7 coverage to serious incidents like a riot, serious RTC or fire or a terrorist attack. there's simply not enough cops. and those examples are mostly just response cops, you need DI's, DCI's and so on able to sit in station and actually investigate.

    on the other hand (and this is just the limited experience of my county) firefighters are generally overstaffed and equipped when compared to cops - simple reason being people generally don't hate the fire service and a) don't misuse them and b) don't abuse them. this isn't true everywhere obviously, having lived in northern ireland i wouldn't like to be a firefighter there.
    Last edited by teds :D; May 27 2020 at 05:58:33 AM.

  3. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Some of this is a really hot take that ignores 1000s of years of Sheriffs, city guard and other law enforcement that the modern police force is an outgrowth of.
    I tried to present something of a range of takes, but there’s definitely been a change since the early industrial revolution in terms of the degree of state organization employed in policing. Like everything else, it industrialized. It also became a syndicate; call it the police-industrial complex if you want, but the effect is something sort of praetorian in its social impact.
    I mean, at some point society evolved from the big dudes with sword who fucked your shit up if you fucked with their bosses stuff to big dudes with swords who fuck your shit up if you fuck with our stuff, collectively. In itself, not a bad thing.

    The real problem here is weve let the dog off the leash in this country, and we are morons, so we have no idea how to get around facts like, an armed populace making them act like an army, and, ironically, the fact you cant really punish any of them becasue police unions and “muh law and order”.
    Except that it’s not our stuff, collectively. It’s a few people’s stuff. Fewer, lately.

    If policing were just about protecting lives and property, that’d be one thing, but that’s clearly not the actual role it plays in society. It’s the justification, but at this point American police are basically a protection racket with more than a little ethnic-suppression paramilitary mixed in.
    Yes. I agree its a massive fucking problem, however, you have stuff, and so do I (as does anyone with a computer who can post on FHC), and so, the police are protecting that a bit, and also your stuff when you walk around, like your phone, etc. It's the reason we don't really have to go out packing like it's mad max out there, to travel between our cities by road.
    Right but realistically if someone broke into my house and stole my fancy FHC-poasting computer, the police would swing by, take a report, tell me to consider some better home security, and to file a claim with my insurance. And that would probably be the end of that.
    Our PD have a decent response time, and will come prepared. Lord knows, we give them enough bond money. The real problem is that idk if it would be safer to call them, and that's in my, relatively cloistered south bay city.
    meh

  4. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    police forces generally need to move to a degree focused education, but to incentivise need higher wages and more access to health and mental support. I don't really know much about other countries training, but the UK has started (slowly) to move to this https://www.college.police.uk/What-w...nticeship.aspx

    smarter cops, a pay reason to incentivise dealing with the horrific shit they have to deal with and the support framework there to help them.

    downsides will be if you want the same operational coverage, you're going to have to eventually pay the same amount (and no force is happy with their staffing levels) of cops a higher wage. worth it? I think so. As a tiny example i deal with cops in my force (i do work for firefighters and lol pcc's too) for training on how to generally not be a dickhead on the interwebs, and with the media. there's is a shocking difference in the...ability to take in information between the new cops and the boys who have been at it for 10+ years
    A smaller number of better cops would be in everyone's interest I would have thought
    no, aside from maybe the met no force is currently well staffed enough to be able cover general beat patrols (visibility in towns/villages), roads crime (speeding is almost essentially farmed out to pcso's at the moment), the very dark shit like domestic abuse, child sexual abuse and the big upcoming one, digital crime) amonsgt others like being able to provide 24/7 coverage to serious incidents like a riot, serious RTC or fire or a terrorist attack. there's simply not enough cops. and those examples are mostly just response cops, you need DI's, DCI's and so on able to sit in station and actually investigate.

    on the other hand (and this is just the limited experience of my county) firefighters are generally overstaffed and equipped when compared to cops - simple reason being people generally don't hate the fire service and a) don't misuse them and b) don't abuse them. this isn't true everywhere obviously, having lived in northern ireland i wouldn't like to be a firefighter there.

    another edit - ambulance services i believe (because i really don't have much to do with them) have a very strange problem where they have enough vehicles, not enough bases and not enough specialist vehicles (helicopters, 4x4's and so on) but an abundance of staff, but an acute shortage of staff who could man the specialist vehicles. ambulance pay is generally pretty crap, and they're often the first responders (ie the first to take the abuse).
    The fire service hasn't constantly had its name dragged through the mud by bent fire chiefs starting their own fires or turning up to places and aggressively jaws of lifing non-crashed cars because they institutionally fucking hate Peugeots



    *roleplay

  5. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Some of this is a really hot take that ignores 1000s of years of Sheriffs, city guard and other law enforcement that the modern police force is an outgrowth of.
    I tried to present something of a range of takes, but there’s definitely been a change since the early industrial revolution in terms of the degree of state organization employed in policing. Like everything else, it industrialized. It also became a syndicate; call it the police-industrial complex if you want, but the effect is something sort of praetorian in its social impact.
    I mean, at some point society evolved from the big dudes with sword who fucked your shit up if you fucked with their bosses stuff to big dudes with swords who fuck your shit up if you fuck with our stuff, collectively. In itself, not a bad thing.

    The real problem here is weve let the dog off the leash in this country, and we are morons, so we have no idea how to get around facts like, an armed populace making them act like an army, and, ironically, the fact you cant really punish any of them becasue police unions and “muh law and order”.
    Except that it’s not our stuff, collectively. It’s a few people’s stuff. Fewer, lately.

    If policing were just about protecting lives and property, that’d be one thing, but that’s clearly not the actual role it plays in society. It’s the justification, but at this point American police are basically a protection racket with more than a little ethnic-suppression paramilitary mixed in.
    Yes. I agree its a massive fucking problem, however, you have stuff, and so do I (as does anyone with a computer who can post on FHC), and so, the police are protecting that a bit, and also your stuff when you walk around, like your phone, etc. It's the reason we don't really have to go out packing like it's mad max out there, to travel between our cities by road.
    Right but realistically if someone broke into my house and stole my fancy FHC-poasting computer, the police would swing by, take a report, tell me to consider some better home security, and to file a claim with my insurance. And that would probably be the end of that.
    Our PD have a decent response time, and will come prepared. Lord knows, we give them enough bond money. The real problem is that idk if it would be safer to call them, and that's in my, relatively cloistered south bay city.
    Yes but the point is they don’t protect my stuff. To the extent my stuff is protected, that’s my responsibility for the most part, whether that’s through having it insured or managing to fend-off a home invasion if someone felt the need to break in while I’m at home.

  6. #446
    mewninn's Avatar
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    strong and stable freedomland scenes

  7. #447
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Perhaps the protestors should have brought rifles, as doing so appears to keep the police calm.

  8. #448
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Meanwhile in 1982...

    https://www.nytimes.com/1982/05/12/u...uspension.html

    The Los Angeles branch of the Urban League, a civil rights group, has called for the suspension of Police Chief Daryl Gates because of his comment that blacks might be more likely to die from chokeholds because their arteries do not open as fast as they do on ''normal people.''

    The league's executive committee also demanded that the Police Commission censure Chief Gates.

    In response, Chief Gates apologized today but declined to retract his remark. ''If anyone has been offended, I'm sorry for that,'' he said.

    The Urban League had also resolved to seek a ban on bar-arm and carotid holds that have been used by the Los Angeles Police to subdue suspects.

    Last week, Chief Gates banned the bar-arm hold, in which the forearm is held across the throat to subdue a suspect. The carotid artery hold involves pinching off the artery in the neck.
    In an interview with The Los Angeles Times, Chief Gates said, ''It seems to me that we may be finding that in some blacks when it is applied, the veins or the arteries do not open as fast as they do on normal people.''

  9. #449
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    police forces generally need to move to a degree focused education, but to incentivise need higher wages and more access to health and mental support. I don't really know much about other countries training, but the UK has started (slowly) to move to this https://www.college.police.uk/What-w...nticeship.aspx

    smarter cops, a pay reason to incentivise dealing with the horrific shit they have to deal with and the support framework there to help them.

    downsides will be if you want the same operational coverage, you're going to have to eventually pay the same amount (and no force is happy with their staffing levels) of cops a higher wage. worth it? I think so. As a tiny example i deal with cops in my force (i do work for firefighters and lol pcc's too) for training on how to generally not be a dickhead on the interwebs, and with the media. there's is a shocking difference in the...ability to take in information between the new cops and the boys who have been at it for 10+ years
    Our three year training for beat cops is a job training program comparable to the apprenticeships every other non-academic job in Germany has. It isn't considered a higher education and doesn't require an Abitur (comparable to A-levels).
    nevar forget

  10. #450

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    We crushed every union besides police unions. Those still have an incredible amount of power and influence.
    We have powerful police unions in Germany and our police doesn't pull shit like this.

    Don't blame this on the unions.

    I'd put the blame partially on the absouletly abysmal training US police officers get.
    On the one hand, yeah, absolutely. On the other hand, the power of the police unions is part of what lets them get away with it.

    Let's say that a german officer loses his mind and pulls some shit like what we've seen in the US. Does the union go to bat for them, demand that they be reinstated, sue of they get fired, etc? Or is that kind of behavior bad enough that the union will cut them lose?

    Because in the US, there's really no degree of 'bad enough' that the police unions won't defend them.

    I can't tell if I'm arguing with you or making your point. I think it's a bit of both. Our problem is not just how shitty the police training is and the low bar for entry in many parts of the country, but also that the powerful police unions will throw their weight behind protecting murderers like these.

    What just happened in Minneapolis is one of the most obvious cases of murder we'll ever see on camera, and the four officers involved just got fired for it. I'd give it 50/50 chance that their union sues, and a smaller-but-non-zero chance that they win (or at least win a settlement).
    Quarantined and loving life.

  11. #451
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    Funnily enough police in the UK are forbidden to join trade unions because a police strike would be too spicy for civil society to handle or something


    Poland treats me like shit and I hate them as a result of it

  12. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steckersaurus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    We crushed every union besides police unions. Those still have an incredible amount of power and influence.
    We have powerful police unions in Germany and our police doesn't pull shit like this.

    Don't blame this on the unions.

    I'd put the blame partially on the absouletly abysmal training US police officers get.
    On the one hand, yeah, absolutely. On the other hand, the power of the police unions is part of what lets them get away with it.

    Let's say that a german officer loses his mind and pulls some shit like what we've seen in the US. Does the union go to bat for them, demand that they be reinstated, sue of they get fired, etc? Or is that kind of behavior bad enough that the union will cut them lose?

    Because in the US, there's really no degree of 'bad enough' that the police unions won't defend them.

    I can't tell if I'm arguing with you or making your point. I think it's a bit of both. Our problem is not just how shitty the police training is and the low bar for entry in many parts of the country, but also that the powerful police unions will throw their weight behind protecting murderers like these.

    What just happened in Minneapolis is one of the most obvious cases of murder we'll ever see on camera, and the four officers involved just got fired for it. I'd give it 50/50 chance that their union sues, and a smaller-but-non-zero chance that they win (or at least win a settlement).
    Police officers are Beamte, which is a special form of employment in Germany only available to the government.

    Beamte can't go on strike at all. Beamte can't be fired unless they commit a felony or certain misdemeanors (the distinction doesn't exist like that in Germany).

    And if that happens, that leads to some hefty repercussions for the Beamte that's fired: full loss of all benefits, no government job ever again, no government pension, only the absolute basic welfare level. (Usual unemployment benefits are at 75% or so of the last job for six months, basic welfare is about €800.) Pensions for regular employees are calculated based on years worked and the income. Beamte get a high percentage of their last income almost regardless how long they got that. They fall back onto the normal pension with their time as Beamter not being considered if they were fired.

    That's just the civil repercussions beside the criminal sentencing.

    Don't get fired as a Beamter. It's hard to get even in that situation, but the repercussions are super harsh as well.

    In a case like this the union would offer some comment, call for better training or equipment or more manpower or whatever and otherwise await the result of the prosecutors investigation and eventual court decision.

    Tapapapatalk
    nevar forget

  13. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Steckersaurus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    We crushed every union besides police unions. Those still have an incredible amount of power and influence.
    We have powerful police unions in Germany and our police doesn't pull shit like this.

    Don't blame this on the unions.

    I'd put the blame partially on the absouletly abysmal training US police officers get.
    On the one hand, yeah, absolutely. On the other hand, the power of the police unions is part of what lets them get away with it.

    Let's say that a german officer loses his mind and pulls some shit like what we've seen in the US. Does the union go to bat for them, demand that they be reinstated, sue of they get fired, etc? Or is that kind of behavior bad enough that the union will cut them lose?

    Because in the US, there's really no degree of 'bad enough' that the police unions won't defend them.

    I can't tell if I'm arguing with you or making your point. I think it's a bit of both. Our problem is not just how shitty the police training is and the low bar for entry in many parts of the country, but also that the powerful police unions will throw their weight behind protecting murderers like these.

    What just happened in Minneapolis is one of the most obvious cases of murder we'll ever see on camera, and the four officers involved just got fired for it. I'd give it 50/50 chance that their union sues, and a smaller-but-non-zero chance that they win (or at least win a settlement).
    Police officers are Beamte, which is a special form of employment in Germany only available to the government.

    Beamte can't go on strike at all. Beamte can't be fired unless they commit a felony or certain misdemeanors (the distinction doesn't exist like that in Germany).

    And if that happens, that leads to some hefty repercussions for the Beamte that's fired: full loss of all benefits, no government job ever again, no government pension, only the absolute basic welfare level. (Usual unemployment benefits are at 75% or so of the last job for six months, basic welfare is about €800.) Pensions for regular employees are calculated based on years worked and the income. Beamte get a high percentage of their last income almost regardless how long they got that. They fall back onto the normal pension with their time as Beamter not being considered if they were fired.

    That's just the civil repercussions beside the criminal sentencing.

    Don't get fired as a Beamter. It's hard to get even in that situation, but the repercussions are super harsh as well.

    In a case like this the union would offer some comment, call for better training or equipment or more manpower or whatever and otherwise await the result of the prosecutor's investigation and eventual court decision.

    Tapapapatalk
    German unions are vastly different from US unions, and as I understood it, are quite a unique thing unto themselves. The ones here are mired in issues, in that the ones that survive are allowed to because it was not worth the money to stop them that rich people wanted to make. Some exist that follow the interests of labor, but those are not police unions, which are largely like Stecker said, a voice piece for the status quo of police rights and little else. When you are exempt from the law yet maintain the law, you really don't want to fuck that up, or let anyone else fuck it up. Also consider the fact that police officers having this image in the U.S means more leftist minded officers are probably less like to even consider joining the police, let alone making it in. The military is far more balanced than police forces are politically, as here right leaning usually means you fall into the "Blue Lives Matter" spectrum, and left leaning is more about restricting police power and spending. I would also say a large portion of the U.S having privileges and power to leverage as seen with that white woman using the threat of calling the police against a black man means that those unions are used to maintain that power by other groups of white, middle and upper class vested interests.

    I wish we had functioning unions here, but the police unions are pretty far from the few unions worth anything we do have.

  14. #454

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    I was gonna say, the us fucked up unions much like pmuch everything else, so the comparison isnt very meaninful.

  15. #455
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    German unions are special in that they compromised with employees during the 2008 crisis. They accepted pay cuts for the workers for job security.
    At the same time unions are encoded into law and employers can't ignore them and their deals extend to any non-union member.

    Walmart learned that shit the hard way when they expanded to Germany and tried to fuck with the unions.

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    nevar forget

  16. #456
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    The trouble with unions in the US is labour is generally weak so unions fight harder for their own relevance and survival than they fight for better labour rights. An interesting example of this was the union which didn't commit to endorsing Bernie Sanders due to his universal healthcare stance. The union had fought particularly hard to secure better healthcare for its workers and universal healthcare was a threat to the relevance of the union.

    When labour is generally strong then unions are more secure, this allows them to further labour rights without constantly fighting to stay afloat.

    Let's also not forget that prior to WWII workers who organised and went on strike for better rights were routinely attacked by military forces and had picket lines bombed by military aircraft. The US has the most violent labour history of any industrial country ever. Any strong labour union which emerges from that history is going to be incredibly insular and operate more like an organised crime syndicate than a revolutionary vehicle for empowering labour.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  17. #457
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    oh boy, strong protest reaction by the murder police again...



    Lovely post on reddit by some New Zealand Cop on the murder

    "I'm a Police officer of 9 years in New Zealand. I cried watching this, but made myself watch to the end. All cops should watch this.

    I've had countless methed up raging people wildly resist getting in the car. So 3 seconds in I can see signs they would have had a big struggle earlier, but the entire time he is handcuffed the risk to them is so minimal, so manageable...

    The officer clearly has his ego bruised for being unable to get him in the car so is overcompensating with needless, alpha dog bull-shit, crushing him into submission. No. Well past that...

    There are so many things about this that scream out about terrible training, ego culture, never questioning a senior officer, lack of empathy, treating "offenders" sub-human.

    I work in our biggest city, CBD, so I'm often in ground control situations with people who are damn near turning into werewolves, much worse than this. You will hear every almost officer who turns up telling the others, "Check his breathing" "Make sure he can breathe" "Sit him up now" "It's okay he's not going anywhere" "Watch the pressure on his chest." We constantly check and challenge each other to protect everyone involved,

    Positional Asphyxia is a huge part of our training. It dispels myths like "If they can talk they can breathe" - not true. We're made to watch videos and read findings of similar situations overseas. People placed on their stomachs in handcuffs that have died, keeled over in vehicle foot wells, being sat on or even just left face-down.

    I've watched senior officers order to have some dangerous people un-handcuffed because of breathing complaints, even though their body position seems fine, just because when you're drugged up the risk is much higher and you can burn through oxygen in a panic.

    I've personally pinned a lot of people's heads down with my knee where it's been necessary to protect both them and myself or others from further harm. But I've never knelt on someone's neck like that. I'd be too scared of doing real damage. And if you're in a position where you can do that, you're in a safe enough position that you no longer need to.

    This was a terrible killing and of sufficient recklessness, with such prolongued, sustained pressure so far after the point of any resistance, that I would be voting guilty of murder. You'd never prove an intent to kill, but the recklessness to me meets the threshold (as opposed to "Manslaughter" here, being an accidental killing through recklessness but where you did not foresee death as a likely consequence, more you should have seen it as possible). The other officers should both be charges as parties to homicide.

    Everything the officers just weren't grasping about the seriousness of that situation was being told to them, but they were too arrogant to listen."
    Last edited by Duckslayer; May 27 2020 at 09:33:07 AM.



    *roleplay

  18. #458
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    The cop who did it also has pictures on social media wearing a 'Make Whites Great Again' cap.

    I wonder how many other cops share that sentiment in comparison with the rest of the population?
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  19. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    We crushed every union besides police unions. Those still have an incredible amount of power and influence.
    We have powerful police unions in Germany and our police doesn't pull shit like this.

    Don't blame this on the unions.

    I'd put the blame partially on the absouletly abysmal training US police officers get. It's barely three months of police academy, and some police agencies have new recruits out on patrol before they got to the police academy. Think about that. No training but going on patrol.

    Here it's a three year education (or four year uni course depending on career type).

    Add on top of that the fact that Sheriffs and DAs and judges are elected... I still can't understand why, and I spent more time and effort in understanding the US than I sometimes want to admit.

    Tapapapatalk
    The "In Germany..." Joe post

  20. #460
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Perhaps the protestors should have brought rifles, as doing so appears to keep the police calm.
    The protesters are the wrong race to use this ability.
    meh

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