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Thread: National Brotherhood Week (USA Civil Unrest Thread)

  1. #1861
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ego Proxy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    lol wow the argument in a day has devolved into false statements and calling each other subhuman scum or nazis lol. Neither of you are even aware of what the other is saying, then you have accusations of white supremacy and Himmler.

    I feel like you two needs hugs. I mean keep shouting nonsense but lief still hasn't answered the last honest thought I gave him, and I watched the whole video you posted, it was 3 dudes youve posted before making arguments you'd expect them to make from previous viewpoints. Lief have you actually looked at the information given to you about defund the police? Now that you've found the white supremacist here, are you able to move to other discussions?

    I appreciate the Cornel west interview, hes s smart man and I like his style. Dont always agree but I've been interested in his opinion. Some of the others though are just right wing talk points and its not something I agree with at all.

    Erich, people don't need extermination they need change. Whether the majority drags them to it and they see its better or not, that's a vote. I do think if voter suppression this fall is heavy, I'm all for revolt and punishment of the people who orchestrated it, and anyone crying for Bezos would realize his wealth has killed millions already. That's how capital works, it costs labor and lives. That man getting your pity is pathetic.
    I’m not sure why you think I pity Bezos.
    I'm pretty sure you don't, however Candy does, and I'm sure people like Spaz and a few others will worry about rule of law. I'm pretty sure the only people I agree need a bullet to the head are the ruling elite, the mega rich, regardless of professed politics are always money first. Bill Gates is just as trash as Bezos or Musk.
    Asking not only because I don't know the answer, but also because I am too lazy to do the research, but does Bill Gates deserve to be lumped into that group?

    I recognize that his foundation could be a later life coming to terms with his past, and an attempt to make amends, but did his company create the same terrible work culture for employees that Bezos and Musk enable?
    If anything Gates always seemed to the example of someone that gamed capitalism from inside the system and won, and didn't have a problem treating his coworkers/employees like human beings instead of easily replaceable units of labor.
    My little brother (along with a lot of other african kids) learned computers, and thus a way out of the shit, in a lab Bill Gates literally both paid for and opened.
    meh

  2. #1862
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    Yeah I don't get how Gates and Bezos get in the same category. Edit: I just read about the Modi award, poverty/education policy and investments in companies with a huge chip on their shoulder, so I guess that's an explanation.

    @ Jack Coutu, sorry I missed the thought I was supposed to answer, probably missed the post due to the internet rage and bloodlust for Erich.
    Last edited by Lief Siddhe; June 30 2020 at 03:28:27 AM.
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  3. #1863

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    Who cares about intellectual masturbation like that? If you think the rich shouldn't exist, then just tax them and take the wealth. Who gives a shit about what category Bill Gates belongs in. And discussing who does or doesn't deserve a bullet in the head is pure boyish garbage.

  4. #1864
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    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    And discussing who does or doesn't deserve a bullet in the head is pure boyish garbage.
    HEAR HEAR
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  5. #1865
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    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Who cares about intellectual masturbation like that? If you think the rich shouldn't exist, then just tax them and take the wealth. Who gives a shit about what category Bill Gates belongs in. And discussing who does or doesn't deserve a bullet in the head is pure boyish garbage.
    This man is correct

  6. #1866

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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Who cares about intellectual masturbation like that? If you think the rich shouldn't exist, then just tax them and take the wealth. Who gives a shit about what category Bill Gates belongs in. And discussing who does or doesn't deserve a bullet in the head is pure boyish garbage.
    This man is correct
    Nah, not quite.

    There is still something to be said for meritocracy, the problem is capitalism has changed the game.

  7. #1867
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Who cares about intellectual masturbation like that? If you think the rich shouldn't exist, then just tax them and take the wealth. Who gives a shit about what category Bill Gates belongs in. And discussing who does or doesn't deserve a bullet in the head is pure boyish garbage.
    This man is correct
    Pretty much.

    Problem becomes what happens when the mechanisms to turn popular demand for tax reform (something like 70-80% of Americans) into policy change are broken or subverted. Taxing them would be great, but I don’t see even a Democratic Congress passing significant (think FDR-era) tax reform to meaningfully redistribute wealth. They might repeal Trump’s tax cuts and tinker with a few things, but they’re not going to re-institute a 20th-century-style progressive tax scheme. They’re also not going to do anything about the estate tax. That’s just not what current Dem leadership is about.

  8. #1868
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ego Proxy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Who cares about intellectual masturbation like that? If you think the rich shouldn't exist, then just tax them and take the wealth. Who gives a shit about what category Bill Gates belongs in. And discussing who does or doesn't deserve a bullet in the head is pure boyish garbage.
    This man is correct
    Nah, not quite.

    There is still something to be said for meritocracy, the problem is capitalism has changed the game.
    I'm not sure what you're talking about. My premise has always been that no one merits that level of wealth and power. In my mind Gates' 100bn net worth has nothing to do with merit. It's simply about bending or rearranging rules such as anti-trust, labor, privacy law in a way that allows you to collect 100bn without having to share with others.

    He can enjoy a net worth in the tens of millions as the richest man in America. It'd make very little difference to his quality of life, and maybe he'd stop trying to crush teacher's unions in the meantime
    Last edited by mewninn; June 30 2020 at 03:54:36 AM.

  9. #1869
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lachesis VII View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Who cares about intellectual masturbation like that? If you think the rich shouldn't exist, then just tax them and take the wealth. Who gives a shit about what category Bill Gates belongs in. And discussing who does or doesn't deserve a bullet in the head is pure boyish garbage.
    This man is correct
    Pretty much.

    Problem becomes what happens when the mechanisms to turn popular demand for tax reform (something like 70-80% of Americans) into policy change are broken or subverted. Taxing them would be great, but I don’t see even a Democratic Congress passing significant (think FDR-era) tax reform to meaningfully redistribute wealth. They might repeal Trump’s tax cuts and tinker with a few things, but they’re not going to re-institute a 20th-century-style progressive tax scheme. They’re also not going to do anything about the estate tax. That’s just not what current Dem leadership is about.
    Yeah well. I think many liberals will be very confused when the civil unrest keeps trucking on through Biden's presidency.

  10. #1870
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ego Proxy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Who cares about intellectual masturbation like that? If you think the rich shouldn't exist, then just tax them and take the wealth. Who gives a shit about what category Bill Gates belongs in. And discussing who does or doesn't deserve a bullet in the head is pure boyish garbage.
    This man is correct
    Nah, not quite.

    There is still something to be said for meritocracy, the problem is capitalism has changed the game.
    I'm not sure what you're talking about. My premise has always been that no one merits that level of wealth and power. In my mind Gates' 100bn net worth has nothing to do with merit. It's simply about bending or rearranging rules such as anti-trust, labor, privacy law in a way that allows you to collect 100bn without having to share with others.

    He can enjoy a net worth in the tens of millions as the richest man in America. It'd make very little difference to his quality of life, and maybe he'd stop trying to crush teacher's unions in the meantime
    Well, I mean, He wouldn't be able to have that mega yacht at 10s of millions.

    He also wouldn't have been able to afford to help put a dent in Malaria's death toll, or pay for the COVID vaccine research he's going to use to put 5G anal polyps in our asses, or whatever it's supposed to do.
    meh

  11. #1871
    mewninn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ego Proxy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Who cares about intellectual masturbation like that? If you think the rich shouldn't exist, then just tax them and take the wealth. Who gives a shit about what category Bill Gates belongs in. And discussing who does or doesn't deserve a bullet in the head is pure boyish garbage.
    This man is correct
    Nah, not quite.

    There is still something to be said for meritocracy, the problem is capitalism has changed the game.
    I'm not sure what you're talking about. My premise has always been that no one merits that level of wealth and power. In my mind Gates' 100bn net worth has nothing to do with merit. It's simply about bending or rearranging rules such as anti-trust, labor, privacy law in a way that allows you to collect 100bn without having to share with others.

    He can enjoy a net worth in the tens of millions as the richest man in America. It'd make very little difference to his quality of life, and maybe he'd stop trying to crush teacher's unions in the meantime
    Well, I mean, He wouldn't be able to have that mega yacht at 10s of millions.

    He also wouldn't have been able to afford to help put a dent in Malaria's death toll, or pay for the COVID vaccine research he's going to use to put 5G anal polyps in our asses, or whatever it's supposed to do.
    He can pay for COVID vaccine research with taxes.

  12. #1872
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    Well that kinda hinges on whether the US government would spend that money on battling COVID which, as it currently stands, they ain't really doing a good job of it. (cough corporate stimulus trillions cough)
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  13. #1873
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ego Proxy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Who cares about intellectual masturbation like that? If you think the rich shouldn't exist, then just tax them and take the wealth. Who gives a shit about what category Bill Gates belongs in. And discussing who does or doesn't deserve a bullet in the head is pure boyish garbage.
    This man is correct
    Nah, not quite.

    There is still something to be said for meritocracy, the problem is capitalism has changed the game.
    I'm not sure what you're talking about. My premise has always been that no one merits that level of wealth and power. In my mind Gates' 100bn net worth has nothing to do with merit. It's simply about bending or rearranging rules such as anti-trust, labor, privacy law in a way that allows you to collect 100bn without having to share with others.

    He can enjoy a net worth in the tens of millions as the richest man in America. It'd make very little difference to his quality of life, and maybe he'd stop trying to crush teacher's unions in the meantime
    Well, I mean, He wouldn't be able to have that mega yacht at 10s of millions.

    He also wouldn't have been able to afford to help put a dent in Malaria's death toll, or pay for the COVID vaccine research he's going to use to put 5G anal polyps in our asses, or whatever it's supposed to do.
    He can pay for COVID vaccine research with taxes.
    I'd be ok with that too, but here we are.
    meh

  14. #1874
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    Well that kinda hinges on whether the US government would spend that money on battling COVID which, as it currently stands, they ain't really doing a good job of it. (cough corporate stimulus trillions cough)

    The lack of taxation and wealth transfer is related to almost every other issue, including the inability to fight pandemics, an unstoppable oligarchy, and a right-wing anti-science party that seems to always be in power.

    Undercovered story relative to Trump's screeching is that almost no part of the country has a real contact tracing system in place. They just can't fucking do it. You only get that way with unrelenting austerity and budget cuts
    Last edited by mewninn; June 30 2020 at 04:45:21 AM.

  15. #1875
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    It's about acknowledging that a black man has 5x more chance of being killed by cops than me, a white man

    No man. You're going to need to bring better "arguments". You also need to find better sources.


    hey, Erich and Isyel, I looked into an indepth analysis of stats for police intervention, any sort of use of force during interaction and shootings in 2017, from a report made by a black researcher,

    Roland Gerhard Fryer Jr. (born June 4, 1977) is an American economist. In 2007, at age 30, he became the youngest African-American to ever receive tenure at Harvard.[1]

    Relevant and controversial details from bio, if you want to go for an ad hominem and disregard the rest:

    Fryer's mother left when he was very young, and his father, who beat his son, was convicted of rape,[7] effectively leaving Fryer to fend for himself. Fryer became a "full fledged gangster by his teens".[8]

    In May 2018, The Harvard Crimson reported that Fryer was the subject of at least two Title IX complaints for sexual harassment.[19] Based on finding that Fryer "engaged in “unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature” against at least five employees over the course of a decade"[19], Harvard barred him from his research lab, the Education Innovation Laboratory (EdLabs) in March 2018.[19] Harvard suspended Fryer in 2019 for two years without pay in March 2019.[20] EdLabs was permanently closed by Harvard in September 2019 as a further sanction against Fryer.[21]

    n 2016, Fryer published a paper concluding that although minorities (African Americans and Hispanics) are more likely to experience police use of force than whites, they were not more likely to be shot by police than whites.[11] The study generated considerable controversy and criticism.[12][13][14][15]. Fryer addressed some of these criticisms in an interview with the New York Times.[16]. Recent academic work, written in response to Fryer and others, has argued that the types of conclusions generated through administrative records on police stops are mathematically incapable of reaching the conclusions advocated by Fryer's work.[

    In 2008 The Economist listed Fryer as one of the top eight young economists in the world.[23] In 2011, Fryer was a recipient of a MacArthur Fellowship, commonly referred to as a "Genius Grant".[24] He is the recipient of the 2015 John Bates Clark Medal, awarded by the American Economic Association to "that American economist under the age of forty who is judged to have made the most significant contribution to economic thought and knowledge."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_G._Fryer_Jr.

    excerpts;

    LOW LEVEL USE OF FORCE (from hands on suspect to use of baton)
    Blacks are 53% more likely to experience any use of force relative to a white mean of
    15.3 percent. The raw gap for Hispanics is almost identical. Asians are no more likely than whites
    to experience use of force. Other race – which includes American Indians, Alaskan natives or other
    races besides white, black, Hispanic and Asian – is smaller but still considerable.
    The raw di↵erence between races is large – perhaps too large – and it seems clear that one needs
    to account for at least some contextual factors at the time of a stop in order to better understand,
    for example, whether racial di↵erences are driven by police response to a given civilian’s behavior
    or racial di↵erences in civilian behavior. Yet, it is unclear how to account for context that might
    predict how much force is used by police and not include variables which themselves might be
    influenced by biased police.25

    POLICE SHOOTINGS
    Given the stream of video “evidence”, which many take to be indicative of structural racism in
    police departments across America, the ensuing and understandable outrage in black communities
    across America, and the results from our previous analysis of non-lethal uses of force, the results
    displayed in Table 4 are startling.
    Blacks are 23.5 percent less likely to be shot by police, relative to whites, in an interaction.
    Hispanics are 8.5 percent less likely to be shot but the coecient is statistically insignificant

    Including all controls available from the taser sample, Table 4
    shows that black civilians are 30.7 percent less likely to be shot with a pistol (rather than a taser)
    relative to non-black suspects. Columns (6) and (7) pool the sample from hand coded arrest data
    and taser data. Results remain qualitatively the same. Controlling for all characteristics from
    incident reports, black suspects are 24.2 percent less likely to be shot than non-black suspects

    VII. Conclusion
    The issue of police violence and its racial incidence has become one of the most divisive topics in
    American discourse. Emotions run the gamut from outrage to indi↵erence. Yet, very little data
    exists to understand whether racial disparities in police use of force exist or might be explained
    by situational factors inherent in the complexity of police-civilian interactions. Beyond the lack
    of data, the analysis of police behavior is fraught with diculty including, but not limited to, the
    reliability of the data that does exist and the fact that one cannot randomly assign race.
    With these caveats in mind, this paper takes first steps into the treacherous terrain of understanding the nature and extent of racial di↵erences in police use of force and the probability of
    police interaction. On non-lethal uses of force, there are racial di↵erences – sometimes quite large
    – in police use of force, even after accounting for a large set of controls designed to account for
    important contextual and behavioral factors at the time of the police-civilian interaction. Interestingly, as use of force increases from putting hands on a civilian to striking them with a baton, the
    overall probability of such an incident occurring decreases dramatically but the racial di↵erence
    remains roughly constant. Even when ocers report civilians have been compliant and no arrest
    was made, blacks are 21.2 percent more likely to endure some form of force in an interaction. Yet,
    on the most extreme use of force – ocer-involved shootings – we are unable to detect any racial
    di↵erences in either the raw data or when accounting for controls.
    We argue that these facts are most consistent with a model of taste-based discrimination in
    which police ocers face discretely higher costs for ocer-involved shootings relative to non-lethal
    uses of force. This model is consistent with racial di↵erences in the average returns to compliant
    behaviors, the results of our tests of discrimination based on Knowles, Persico, and Todd (2001) and
    Anwar and Fang (2006), and the fact that the odds-ratio is large and significant across all intensities
    of force – even after accounting for a rich set of controls. In the end, however, without randomly
    assigning race, we have no definitive proof of discrimination. Our results are also consistent with
    mismeasured contextual factors.
    As police departments across America consider models of community policing such as the Boston
    Ten Point Coalition, body worn cameras, or training designed to purge ocers of implicit bias, our
    results point to another simple policy experiment: increase the expected price of excessive force
    39
    on lower level uses of force. To date, very few police departments across the country either collect
    data on lower level uses of force or explicitly punish ocers for misuse of these tactics.
    The appealing feature of this type of policy experiment is that it does not require ocers to
    change their behavior in extremely high-stakes environments. Many arguments about police reform
    fall victim to the “my life versus theirs, us versus them” mantra. Holding ocers accountable for
    the misuse of hands or pushing individuals to the ground is not likely a life or death situation and,
    as such, may be more amenable to policy change.
    ****
    The importance of our results for racial inequality in America is unclear. It is plausible that
    racial di↵erences in lower level uses of force are simply a distraction and movements such as Black
    Lives Matter should seek solutions within their own communities rather than changing the behaviors
    of police and other external forces.
    Much more troubling, due to their frequency and potential impact on minority belief formation,
    is the possibility that racial di↵erences in police use of non-lethal force has spillovers on myriad
    dimensions of racial inequality. If, for instance, blacks use their lived experience with police as
    evidence that the world is discriminatory, then it is easy to understand why black youth invest
    less in human capital or black adults are more likely to believe discrimination is an important
    determinant of economic outcomes. Black Dignity Matters.

    Original document available here as PDF, 39 pages with mathematic formulas, stats, tables and everything

    https://scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/pu...lice-use-force



    this good enough for you to read and watch?

    Just to repeat: I believe there is racism in USA, I believe there are racist cops, and I believe that blacks are victims of violence much more often than whites, unfortunately most often perpetrated by other blacks. I believe the gun culture in USA in cooperation with not enough training and overuse of cops for situations where social services and similar should be employed exacerbates these problems. I believe that social services and mental health issues need to be addressed to make USA a healthier society. I believe the war on drugs has hit the black community very hard and that your prison system is also in need of heavy reform, but I also don't believe most arrests and convictions are happening to innocent blacks. I believe your police needs heavy restructuring, retraining and better personnel applying to be policemen. I believe the COVID epidemic and economic slump caused by it made all of these problems much more pronounced. I believe that what those cops did to George Floyd was way out of line and they need to stand trial and that police needs some sort of independent oversight mechanism, but your cops also need some sort of protection otherwise they can't do their job. I believe that the black communities are in trouble, but I also believe removing agency from them and just generally blaming the government/white racists without checking the details about black on black crime and culture/education/economic issues is counterproductive, something that BLM should also be focused much much more if they're true to their goals.

    I still don't believe the entire police is institutionally racist, I still think looters and rioters should have been dealt harshly if not by the police then by the peaceful protesters themselves, I believe the police needs to earn and have respect from the citizens, otherwise it's unable to do its job and you have to see cops as fellow citizens and humans, even though there are scum among them, but guess what, they are just a statistical percentage of your population. Problems with the police are a symptom of your society, not an isolated alien colony. I generally agree with the idea that Black lives matter but I'd get into trouble cause I'd say either all lives matter or no lives matter and it's a bad idea to separate issues by race, because it's regressive, same as identity politics. How would it look if there was a white lives matter organization (inb4 lokKKK) I'm sceptical about the BLM as an organization because I'm skeptical towards all organizations, and most of all towards those that are left because I consider myself a lefty and probably a communist on most issues, if I had to describe myself in these stupid political terms, and I'm of the opinion one must criticize one's side the most to remove potential weak points and make it bombproof and because I fear this sort of identity politics combined with elements of mob rule , followed blindly in righteous rage, will push more moderate Americans towards the right and that's what the world really doesn't need right now. I have some conservative values as well, that's why I shit on extremes on that side, nationalists and racists, as deluded idiots, for the same reasons. I don't believe you can just blatantly disregard arguments from the other side just because it might be an uncomfortable truth for me or you.

    I was a dick in this thread but that's also because I get easily annoyed by people just blindly following an ideology and its slogans and because I realize that a good or bad idea can come both from the left and the right and the whole left/right is a division that in itself is a trap and some of you posted really ignorant stupid shit about the other side, something that is a horrible habit in politics and public discourse nowadays it seems, so I apologize for being an insufferable cunt but it's cause I luv ya. I stand behind everything I said. I didn't "imply" anything. You sometimes have to watch, read and listen opposing views from yours if you want to become better and to invoke cooperation with others in your society, even some who you might not agree with but you have to live together or die fighting. Save the final solution for when shit really hits the fan. Peace.

    edit: holy shit I did a barth
    Last edited by Lief Siddhe; June 30 2020 at 07:29:07 AM.
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  16. #1876
    Jack Coutu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    It's about acknowledging that a black man has 5x more chance of being killed by cops than me, a white man

    No man. You're going to need to bring better "arguments". You also need to find better sources.


    hey, Erich and Isyel, I looked into an indepth analysis of stats for police intervention, any sort of use of force during interaction and shootings in 2017, from a report made by a black researcher,

    Roland Gerhard Fryer Jr. (born June 4, 1977) is an American economist. In 2007, at age 30, he became the youngest African-American to ever receive tenure at Harvard.[1]

    Relevant and controversial details from bio, if you want to go for an ad hominem and disregard the rest:

    Fryer's mother left when he was very young, and his father, who beat his son, was convicted of rape,[7] effectively leaving Fryer to fend for himself. Fryer became a "full fledged gangster by his teens".[8]

    In May 2018, The Harvard Crimson reported that Fryer was the subject of at least two Title IX complaints for sexual harassment.[19] Based on finding that Fryer "engaged in “unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature” against at least five employees over the course of a decade"[19], Harvard barred him from his research lab, the Education Innovation Laboratory (EdLabs) in March 2018.[19] Harvard suspended Fryer in 2019 for two years without pay in March 2019.[20] EdLabs was permanently closed by Harvard in September 2019 as a further sanction against Fryer.[21]

    n 2016, Fryer published a paper concluding that although minorities (African Americans and Hispanics) are more likely to experience police use of force than whites, they were not more likely to be shot by police than whites.[11] The study generated considerable controversy and criticism.[12][13][14][15]. Fryer addressed some of these criticisms in an interview with the New York Times.[16]. Recent academic work, written in response to Fryer and others, has argued that the types of conclusions generated through administrative records on police stops are mathematically incapable of reaching the conclusions advocated by Fryer's work.[

    In 2008 The Economist listed Fryer as one of the top eight young economists in the world.[23] In 2011, Fryer was a recipient of a MacArthur Fellowship, commonly referred to as a "Genius Grant".[24] He is the recipient of the 2015 John Bates Clark Medal, awarded by the American Economic Association to "that American economist under the age of forty who is judged to have made the most significant contribution to economic thought and knowledge."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_G._Fryer_Jr.

    excerpts;

    LOW LEVEL USE OF FORCE (from hands on suspect to use of baton)
    Blacks are 53% more likely to experience any use of force relative to a white mean of
    15.3 percent. The raw gap for Hispanics is almost identical. Asians are no more likely than whites
    to experience use of force. Other race – which includes American Indians, Alaskan natives or other
    races besides white, black, Hispanic and Asian – is smaller but still considerable.
    The raw di↵erence between races is large – perhaps too large – and it seems clear that one needs
    to account for at least some contextual factors at the time of a stop in order to better understand,
    for example, whether racial di↵erences are driven by police response to a given civilian’s behavior
    or racial di↵erences in civilian behavior. Yet, it is unclear how to account for context that might
    predict how much force is used by police and not include variables which themselves might be
    influenced by biased police.25

    POLICE SHOOTINGS
    Given the stream of video “evidence”, which many take to be indicative of structural racism in
    police departments across America, the ensuing and understandable outrage in black communities
    across America, and the results from our previous analysis of non-lethal uses of force, the results
    displayed in Table 4 are startling.
    Blacks are 23.5 percent less likely to be shot by police, relative to whites, in an interaction.
    Hispanics are 8.5 percent less likely to be shot but the coecient is statistically insignificant

    Including all controls available from the taser sample, Table 4
    shows that black civilians are 30.7 percent less likely to be shot with a pistol (rather than a taser)
    relative to non-black suspects. Columns (6) and (7) pool the sample from hand coded arrest data
    and taser data. Results remain qualitatively the same. Controlling for all characteristics from
    incident reports, black suspects are 24.2 percent less likely to be shot than non-black suspects

    VII. Conclusion
    The issue of police violence and its racial incidence has become one of the most divisive topics in
    American discourse. Emotions run the gamut from outrage to indi↵erence. Yet, very little data
    exists to understand whether racial disparities in police use of force exist or might be explained
    by situational factors inherent in the complexity of police-civilian interactions. Beyond the lack
    of data, the analysis of police behavior is fraught with diculty including, but not limited to, the
    reliability of the data that does exist and the fact that one cannot randomly assign race.
    With these caveats in mind, this paper takes first steps into the treacherous terrain of understanding the nature and extent of racial di↵erences in police use of force and the probability of
    police interaction. On non-lethal uses of force, there are racial di↵erences – sometimes quite large
    – in police use of force, even after accounting for a large set of controls designed to account for
    important contextual and behavioral factors at the time of the police-civilian interaction. Interestingly, as use of force increases from putting hands on a civilian to striking them with a baton, the
    overall probability of such an incident occurring decreases dramatically but the racial di↵erence
    remains roughly constant. Even when ocers report civilians have been compliant and no arrest
    was made, blacks are 21.2 percent more likely to endure some form of force in an interaction. Yet,
    on the most extreme use of force – ocer-involved shootings – we are unable to detect any racial
    di↵erences in either the raw data or when accounting for controls.
    We argue that these facts are most consistent with a model of taste-based discrimination in
    which police ocers face discretely higher costs for ocer-involved shootings relative to non-lethal
    uses of force. This model is consistent with racial di↵erences in the average returns to compliant
    behaviors, the results of our tests of discrimination based on Knowles, Persico, and Todd (2001) and
    Anwar and Fang (2006), and the fact that the odds-ratio is large and significant across all intensities
    of force – even after accounting for a rich set of controls. In the end, however, without randomly
    assigning race, we have no definitive proof of discrimination. Our results are also consistent with
    mismeasured contextual factors.
    As police departments across America consider models of community policing such as the Boston
    Ten Point Coalition, body worn cameras, or training designed to purge ocers of implicit bias, our
    results point to another simple policy experiment: increase the expected price of excessive force
    39
    on lower level uses of force. To date, very few police departments across the country either collect
    data on lower level uses of force or explicitly punish ocers for misuse of these tactics.
    The appealing feature of this type of policy experiment is that it does not require ocers to
    change their behavior in extremely high-stakes environments. Many arguments about police reform
    fall victim to the “my life versus theirs, us versus them” mantra. Holding ocers accountable for
    the misuse of hands or pushing individuals to the ground is not likely a life or death situation and,
    as such, may be more amenable to policy change.
    ****
    The importance of our results for racial inequality in America is unclear. It is plausible that
    racial di↵erences in lower level uses of force are simply a distraction and movements such as Black
    Lives Matter should seek solutions within their own communities rather than changing the behaviors
    of police and other external forces.
    Much more troubling, due to their frequency and potential impact on minority belief formation,
    is the possibility that racial di↵erences in police use of non-lethal force has spillovers on myriad
    dimensions of racial inequality. If, for instance, blacks use their lived experience with police as
    evidence that the world is discriminatory, then it is easy to understand why black youth invest
    less in human capital or black adults are more likely to believe discrimination is an important
    determinant of economic outcomes. Black Dignity Matters.

    Original document available here as PDF, 39 pages with mathematic formulas, stats, tables and everything

    https://scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/pu...lice-use-force



    this good enough for you to read and watch?

    Just to repeat: I believe there is racism in USA, I believe there are racist cops, and I believe that blacks are victims of violence much more often than whites, unfortunately most often perpetrated by other blacks. I believe the gun culture in USA in cooperation with not enough training and overuse of cops for situations where social services and similar should be employed exacerbates these problems. I believe that social services and mental health issues need to be addressed to make USA a healthier society. I believe the war on drugs has hit the black community very hard and that your prison system is also in need of heavy reform, but I also don't believe most arrests and convictions are happening to innocent blacks. I believe your police needs heavy restructuring, retraining and better personnel applying to be policemen. I believe the COVID epidemic and economic slump caused by it made all of these problems much more pronounced. I believe that what those cops did to George Floyd was way out of line and they need to stand trial and that police needs some sort of independent oversight mechanism, but your cops also need some sort of protection otherwise they can't do their job. I believe that the black communities are in trouble, but I also believe removing agency from them and just generally blaming the government/white racists without checking the details about black on black crime and culture/education/economic issues is counterproductive, something that BLM should also be focused much much more if they're true to their goals.

    I still don't believe the entire police is institutionally racist, I still think looters and rioters should have been dealt harshly if not by the police then by the peaceful protesters themselves, I believe the police needs to earn and have respect from the citizens, otherwise it's unable to do its job and you have to see cops as fellow citizens and humans, even though there are scum among them, but guess what, they are just a statistical percentage of your population. Problems with the police are a symptom of your society, not an isolated alien colony. I generally agree with the idea that Black lives matter but I'd get into trouble cause I'd say either all lives matter or no lives matter and it's a bad idea to separate issues by race, because it's regressive, same as identity politics. How would it look if there was a white lives matter organization (inb4 lokKKK) I'm sceptical about the BLM as an organization because I'm skeptical towards all organizations, and most of all towards those that are left because I consider myself a lefty and probably a communist on most issues, if I had to describe myself in these stupid political terms, and I'm of the opinion one must criticize one's side the most to remove potential weak points and make it bombproof and because I fear this sort of identity politics combined with elements of mob rule , followed blindly in righteous rage, will push more moderate Americans towards the right and that's what the world really doesn't need right now. I have some conservative values as well, that's why I shit on extremes on that side, nationalists and racists, as deluded idiots, for the same reasons. I don't believe you can just blatantly disregard arguments from the other side just because it might be an uncomfortable truth for me or you.

    I was a dick in this thread but that's also because I get easily annoyed by people just blindly following an ideology and its slogans and because I realize that a good or bad idea can come both from the left and the right and the whole left/right is a division that in itself is a trap and some of you posted really ignorant stupid shit about the other side, something that is a horrible habit in politics and public discourse nowadays it seems, so I apologize for being an insufferable cunt but it's cause I luv ya. I stand behind everything I said. I didn't "imply" anything. You sometimes have to watch, read and listen opposing views from yours if you want to become better and to invoke cooperation with others in your society, even some who you might not agree with but you have to live together or die fighting. Save the final solution for when shit really hits the fan. Peace.

    edit: holy shit I did a barth
    Better than Barth by far, I'll provide a good reply tomorrow but I think this shows the viewpoints a bit clearer than before. I have somethings for you I've learned in the past few months, showing how heavily the police are a racist institution, how blacks are not without agency, but rather the system is much more stacked against them than a quick glance already reveals it to be. As I said here before the police arent only paid for by local funds, federal funds, tickets and property seizures fund police as well.

    No one is saying all black crime is the fault of the police or system, but once I'm not so tired (rode my bike today, not a great experience with a freshly healed spine) I'll send ya a PM and post a response. I do appreciate the long thought out post.

    Back to shitpoasting.

  17. #1877

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    I still don't believe the entire police is institutionally racist
    because you're a racist.

  18. #1878
    Keckers's Avatar
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    The entire criminal 'justice' system in America is institutionally racist.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  19. #1879
    rufuske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    I still don't believe the entire police is institutionally racist
    because you're a racist.
    If he said he doesn't believe every jew is a mustache twirling, cigar smoking banker only out to oppress poor, would you describe him as antisemite?

  20. #1880
    Keckers's Avatar
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    FYI every cop doesn't have to be racist in order for there to be institutional racism.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

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