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Thread: Dos Dedos Mis Amigos (USA Civil Unrest Thread)

  1. #2621
    Liare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dzajic View Post
    You are sadly deluded. Memes used by modern right are far stronger than you understand. That is what I have been trying to say. You have majority of people in even 3rd countries with any right or conservative tendencies by now seeing the equality "Democrats = BLM = Left wing cop killing terrorists". Blame the cishet white male patriarchy... but fact remains that globally majority of people prefer law and order (and racist murderous cops) over idealised social justice. Imagine how strong the propaganda is hitting in Anglosphere if you have random gopniks becoming #MAGA crowd just from brute force of the memes.
    politics is not memes.

    if the far right is as strong as you assume, where are they ? they're outnumbered at least 10 to 1 every time they show up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    So we're either with BLM or against them then.
    that is the point the US is rapidly approaching, especially after tonight's events in Kenosha. the "jolly gee, i wish they where more civil!" routine is, at this point, functionally identical to "send in the stomtroopers!". it's a rejection of the demands and the events that led to them in order to maintain the status quo. you're not outright demanding the stormtroopers when you say that of course, but it's the only logical end-game of that stance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    I'll vote Biden because he's by far and unquestionably the better choice available. Chips will fall where they may after that. I'm not going to burn my neighbors house down and loot a few guitars from Guitar center to show people how with the cause I am. So I guess, by your definition, I am "against them".
    first off, nobody is torching residential areas at this point, it's probably coming but not yet, secondly you're not actually addressing the point i made, instead defaulting to "just vote all the problems away!". the bottom line is, either you think their grievances are legitimate, or you think they are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    An interesting take. So no difference between Biden and Trump, it's Fascism or Fascism. Ok.
    functionally yes, it's fascism or fascism but you get to pick the brand and taste.

    in the short term :
    if Trump wins then the situation explodes as he takes it as a mandate to put down the civil unrest, i think we can all see that at this point yes ?
    if Biden wins, he's offering the people in the street nothing at all per his current stance, and has implicitly promised to put down the protesting and restore "normality", the only way to do that is trough concessions he's outright rejected from the start, or massive repression. so the leadup is going to be longer, but it's still going to get put down.

    in the mid term :
    in both cases, you very much have the "1905" problem on your hands, where you either give concessions or have even bigger problems down the line. neither Trump nor Biden can really give meaningful concessions due to the makeup of their political backing and the overall power structures of the US combined with the consequences and costs of American imperialism (that neither is in a position to give up). so all they can do is ramp up the authoritarianism in order to maintain power the chief tool to do so today is some flavour of fascism.
    for Trump, it's just more of the same and for Biden it's going to be served up on a "law and order" type platform that expands policing authority even further probably to encompass political agitation as well. i figure a full on round of red scare would serve as a fine starting point and also nip the burgeoning left-wing tendency in the democratic party in the process.

    all of this of course assumes that there is no "black swan" style event coming down the pipe triggering a national uprising.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    If you think Biden winning means this will all die down and go away you are crazy. The first time he acts post election will see mass unrest either way. Thinking Trump winning will move the masses towards revolution is also kinda insane, and sadly the poorest amongst us would die first and almost entirely in a revolution here. Good luck getting someone to go organized if they were fucked over by establishments already. Some of the more Marxist posters seem to think a revolution would swing towards communism, i think it would be a total snd complete rejection of that in a majority, and building coalitions would be so hard with so many divisions existing across and amongst all parties.

    Revolution isn't here for sure, it's closer if no relief package gets passed, but I have a feeling both parties know its better if they push your head in the water to make you appreciate the air they are giving you afterwards.

    We are fucked.
    i dont think anybody believes there's a communist revolt on the cards here, just a enormous shitshow.
    Last edited by Liare; August 26 2020 at 08:45:06 AM.
    Viking, n.:
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    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  2. #2622

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    In a scene that played out several times Monday, a Black Lives Matter protest that began in Columbia Heights confronted White diners outside D.C. restaurants, chanting “White silence is violence!” and demanding White diners show their solidarity.
    https://twitter.com/KunkleFredrick/s...44285079838720

    I don't know who's running these "protests" but what you're seeing aren't protests.

  3. #2623
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    Stupid demands like that aren't even anywhere near as ridiculous as the shit black communities are expected to live with.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  4. #2624
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    So we're either with BLM or against them then.
    that is the point the US is rapidly approaching, especially after tonight's events in Kenosha. the "jolly gee, i wish they where more civil!" routine is, at this point, functionally identical to "send in the stomtroopers!". it's a rejection of the demands and the events that led to them in order to maintain the status quo. you're not outright demanding the stormtroopers when you say that of course, but it's the only logical end-game of that stance.
    I would offer that one can hold a position of opposition to BLM's more violent elements and socialist economic policy preferences, and opposition to Police Violence and racism. I outright reject the concept of a false dilemma with only two mutually exclusive options.

    And no, I do not agree that opposition to mob violence is equal to "send in the stormtroopers". I think that is ridiculously reductionist, frankly. Violence is not the only solution to problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    I'll vote Biden because he's by far and unquestionably the better choice available. Chips will fall where they may after that. I'm not going to burn my neighbors house down and loot a few guitars from Guitar center to show people how with the cause I am. So I guess, by your definition, I am "against them".
    first off, nobody is torching residential areas at this point, it's probably coming but not yet, secondly you're not actually addressing the point i made, instead defaulting to "just vote all the problems away!". the bottom line is, either you think their grievances are legitimate, or you think they are not.
    Again, reductionist to a A or B option is wrong. I agree with some of their grievances. But be assured, that agreement will be tempered if, as you say, "burning residential neighborhoods" is "coming". And for many folks, it's already been tempering by the burning, looting and mob violence we're already seeing in urban neighborhoods, be assured.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    An interesting take. So no difference between Biden and Trump, it's Fascism or Fascism. Ok.
    functionally yes, it's fascism or fascism but you get to pick the brand and taste.
    We'll have to agree to disagree. I think once you become as far out from the political norm as you are, everything starts to look like Fascism. Just like to the very far right, everything looks like Communism. You're a perfect example of the "to a hammer, everything looks like a nail" concept.

    And yes, I do think Biden will take steps to address the concerns. And I think he comes from a place of caring about those concerns. In my view, this alone is a massive difference from Donald "Lord Emperor of American Taliban Republic" Trump.

    But again, agree to disagree.
    Last edited by Alistair; August 26 2020 at 01:05:07 PM.


  5. #2625

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    I see absolutely nothing has been learned yet again.

  6. #2626
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    At least two people killed by militas with police approval last night but no its the protesters that are bad

  7. #2627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    I would offer that one can hold a position of opposition to BLM's more violent elements and socialist economic policy preferences, and opposition to Police Violence and racism. I outright reject the concept of a false dilemma with only two mutually exclusive options.

    And no, I do not agree that opposition to mob violence is equal to "send in the stormtroopers". I think that is ridiculously reductionist, frankly. Violence is not the only solution to problems.
    show us the compromise you so fervently believe can be found, show us the majority that passes said compromise too while you're at it.
    when the situation gets spicy nuance goes out the window, the time to "sit down and talk it out" was three months and a pile of dead and injured people ago at this point. the situation has become self-sustaining, with every week having one or more incidents driving further grievances. and people aren't responding with violence to police brutality, if they where the citizen of Kenosha would be hunting their police force in the street like the rabid dogs they are in response to the latest shooting, they're not doing that instead they're gathering en-mass to express their dissatisfaction and getting a face full of teargas in return.

    and it turns out that getting a face full of teargas for trying to exercise your rights is a very radicalizing experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Again, reductionist to a A or B option is wrong. I agree with some of their grievances. But be assured, that agreement will be tempered if, as you say, "burning residential neighborhoods" is "coming". And for many folks, it's already been tempering by the burning, looting and mob violence we're already seeing in urban neighborhoods, be assured.
    the Kenosha police practically green-lighted tonight's shooting by their interactions with the militia people on the ground and you're still laser focused on the still rather mild property damage and occasional looting going on as if that's actually the major concern.

    and what mob violence ? the only place that has seen any significant "mob violence" is when the folks over in Portland tossed the nazis out last week, you know, after the PPB decided to give the proud boys a free hand and they got their arses kicked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree. I think once you become as far out from the political norm as you are, everything starts to look like Fascism. Just like to the very far right, everything looks like Communism. You're a perfect example of the "to a hammer, everything looks like a nail" concept.
    the united states has flirted with flat out fascism for a long long time Alistair, you're just not seeing it because you're too used to the whole thing to notice, and it's never worn the uniforms and symbolism it has in europe, but the underlying ideas, the underlying concepts have been there right from the get-go even before fascism was formalized into a framework.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    And yes, I do think Biden will take steps to address the concerns. And I think he comes from a place of caring about those concerns. In my view, this alone is a massive difference from Donald "Lord Emperor of American Taliban Republic" Trump.

    But again, agree to disagree.
    and how do you imagine he's going to address those concerns ? reigning in police power ? with his record and Harris as VP ? while he's trying (and failing) to cater to republican voters over the growing left wing of his own party ?

    it's going to be "kente cloth" symbolism and repression starting with the forced neutering of the growing leftist tendencies, it's the only way to maintain the status quo.

    the iron law of institutions is in play here, the institution in question being the sinking ship of the American social system and it's heavy dependence on oppression of minorities and poor people to sustain itself, in no small part because these groups have little investment in the system and have realized that, so they're demanding a better system.

    stop thinking about police abolition versus reform, it's blisteringly irrelevant in this very moment, it's a contest of will over if the system should change in the first place. that discussion becomes relevant once the actual concession that "yes, this is not okay" has been made, but again neither Biden or Trump can realistically make that concession on a national level and force it trough, most cities cant make that concession, the deadlock in Portland is emblematic of that.
    the places where that concession has been made on a local level, Minneapolis especially, has seen the confrontational protests die out entirely, there's still protesting but it's to keep the momentum going and it's more speeches and bloc parties on the city square.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  8. #2628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post

    the united states has flirted with flat out fascism for a long long time Alistair, you're just not seeing it because you're too used to the whole thing to notice, and it's never worn the uniforms and symbolism it has in europe, but the underlying ideas, the underlying concepts have been there right from the get-go even before fascism was formalized into a framework.
    Great article. One quibble is that Huey Long is very hard to pin down to any ideology. He was definitely an opportunist and a bully, but the history is also colored by the segregationists who got eternally mad at him for subverting their control of the state. They were from the old plantation families, had controlled the government and legislature of Louisiana for decades after Reconstruction, and arguably there was no meaningful democracy for Long to destroy in the first place.

    This was their personal fiefdom, with the gushing titty of Standard Oil and serf conditions in every rural/agricultural parish. No infrastructure or literacy was required to operate that machine.

    Long disrupted that by offering literacy and school programs that had been denied to the mostly illiterate, poor and black populations, as well as building the infrastructure to finally connect the state.

  9. #2629
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    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  10. #2630
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    Any cop that stayed on the job instead of doing the right thing after quote that is an example of the majority if police we have here. You gotta wonder how easily they'd all be pushed to enacting those plans with a simple order. Following insane commands when your idealogy is asking you to go beyond those commands is easy. For every shreiff taking a knee there's two morons like that, and in between is a host of people that are not quitting in droves, but just saying "meh this is fine" or silently hating the protesters. Police unions of course make it impossible to make any fast changes to this, and they'd bring on the miltia men in 5 months if they needed help, but fuck me the police nationwide think they are at war with protests. When you think that's not going to invoke violent response, you are denying human nature and simple history,

  11. #2631
    Movember 2012 Zekk Pacus's Avatar
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    I have said it before - in every police department in America, you have x bad cops, and y good cops who could've stopped the bad cops but didn't, so what you actually have is x+y bad cops.

    It's like the old German saying, if three Nazis sit down with seven non-Nazis to have dinner, what you have is a table of ten Nazis. If you know your colleagues are up to no good and you could stop it, you are at best complicit.
    'I'm pro life. I'm a non-smoker. I'm a pro-life non-smoker. WOO, Let the party begin!'

  12. #2632
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    BUT CIVILITY THOUGH ZEKK.

  13. #2633
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    I have said it before - in every police department in America, you have x bad cops, and y good cops who could've stopped the bad cops but didn't, so what you actually have is x+y bad cops.

    It's like the old German saying, if three Nazis sit down with seven non-Nazis to have dinner, what you have is a table of ten Nazis. If you know your colleagues are up to no good and you could stop it, you are at best complicit.
    Maybe those other cops aren't fucking snitches

  14. #2634
    Movember 2012 Zekk Pacus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Coutu View Post
    BUT CIVILITY THOUGH ZEKK.
    I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
    If I had my way, nobody would graduate school before they had read, understood, and internalised Letter from a Birmingham Jail.
    'I'm pro life. I'm a non-smoker. I'm a pro-life non-smoker. WOO, Let the party begin!'

  15. #2635
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    Quote Originally Posted by evil edna View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    I have said it before - in every police department in America, you have x bad cops, and y good cops who could've stopped the bad cops but didn't, so what you actually have is x+y bad cops.

    It's like the old German saying, if three Nazis sit down with seven non-Nazis to have dinner, what you have is a table of ten Nazis. If you know your colleagues are up to no good and you could stop it, you are at best complicit.
    Maybe those other cops aren't fucking snitches
    maybe they fucking well should be.

    law enforcement isn't just a job, its a trusted position, you're given authority and reach significantly in excess of the common citizen and with that should come a set of obligations and requirements when it comes to conduct to met as well.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  16. #2636
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    Noone likes a grass

  17. #2637

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    Don't forget about environment, saturated with firearms and drugs, many of them are ex military,, training combat oriented with little human behavior or psychology training . They have a saying: "Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

    In an ideal situation


  18. #2638
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by evil edna View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    I have said it before - in every police department in America, you have x bad cops, and y good cops who could've stopped the bad cops but didn't, so what you actually have is x+y bad cops.

    It's like the old German saying, if three Nazis sit down with seven non-Nazis to have dinner, what you have is a table of ten Nazis. If you know your colleagues are up to no good and you could stop it, you are at best complicit.
    Maybe those other cops aren't fucking snitches
    maybe they fucking well should be.

    law enforcement isn't just a job, its a trusted position, you're given authority and reach significantly in excess of the common citizen and with that should come a set of obligations and requirements when it comes to conduct to met as well.
    Dude the system was closed even before 20th century. Snitches don't get to live easy and/or long.
    Best you can do is quit and then it's just one fewer "honest" cop in the force.

  19. #2639

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    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by evil edna View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zekk Pacus View Post
    I have said it before - in every police department in America, you have x bad cops, and y good cops who could've stopped the bad cops but didn't, so what you actually have is x+y bad cops.

    It's like the old German saying, if three Nazis sit down with seven non-Nazis to have dinner, what you have is a table of ten Nazis. If you know your colleagues are up to no good and you could stop it, you are at best complicit.
    Maybe those other cops aren't fucking snitches
    maybe they fucking well should be.

    law enforcement isn't just a job, its a trusted position, you're given authority and reach significantly in excess of the common citizen and with that should come a set of obligations and requirements when it comes to conduct to met as well.
    Dude the system was closed even before 20th century. Snitches don't get to live easy and/or long.
    Best you can do is quit and then it's just one fewer "honest" cop in the force.
    It's almost as if the oath of office when sworn in is meaningless...

  20. #2640

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candy Crush View Post
    Don't forget about environment, saturated with firearms and drugs, many of them are ex military,, training combat oriented with little human behavior or psychology training . They have a saying: "Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

    We understand why it happens. We are saying that this is a broken system that needs to be urgently and radically reformed.

    Do you agree?

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