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Thread: Outdoor security cameras

  1. #1
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    Outdoor security cameras

    I hope anyone got experience with this here:

    So I was approached by my principal to come up with a solution to cover some of the parts of our school grounds that are hard to see during recess.

    Basically during recess (twice a school day) we teachers are out on the grounds to keep an eye on things, enforce rules and intervene in conflicts or render first aid. But being a rather not so shit school campus we do have some corners that are near impossible to keep an eye on. Since we are ramping up our efforts up to keep order, we need to add cameras to some corners.

    What are decent off-the-shelf choices that are simple to use and preferably do not upload data to the cloud but instead maybe a local server (or a data center in Germany at most)? The latter part is non-negotiable due to massive data privacy issues we'll be running into by putting up cameras in the first place.

    One of the cameras can't be placed on a wall of a building but needs to be put up on a mast (which we have to put up).

    I'd love to not use wifi for this, as ours is a bit ... weak and doesn't extend to the outside (yet).

    You may ask why we aren't getting a company to do that, and it's simple: we don't have the budget for that. I totally expect to spend a weekend installing that stuff myself.

    There's some silver lining: When my principal and I were outside looking for mounting options and their fields of view, I mentioned using a drone would be a lot easier.
    "Good idea, but we need someone to do that then."
    Needless to point out that I volunteered for drone duty. And also pointed out that I could put that onto our media course budget and get it approved through that (plus I'd get a drone for my course).
    Last edited by Joe Appleby; April 17 2018 at 09:42:45 PM.
    nevar forget

  2. #2
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    Answering myself with the infos from Discord by our awesome Lagman:

    Hikvision is good and cheap.
    The cameras need to run on their own Cat6 infrastructure. Cat6 covers 50m on POE, and I need POE injectors (those can be found cheaply).

    Stuff:

    Camera
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-HI...4AAOSwBt5ZEtlR

    NVR
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hikvision-D...gAAOSwOdpX029O

    or

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hikvision-D...gAAOSw~vpZ5tCT

    HDD
    https://www.wdc.com/products/interna...ard-drive.html

    [11:23 PM] Lagman: ideally you should try straight runs, so the NVR has POE, so go straight from the NVR to the cameras and just place the NVR somewhere convenient
    [11:23 PM] Lagman: otherwise you're looking at patch panels and then maybe putting a poe injector further down the cable run.. it's a mess

    [11:24 PM] Joe Appleby: we'll probably need to do that though, as the corner in question is at the other end of the campus and we're looking at two buildings with some distance
    nevar forget

  3. #3
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    Good fucking luck/work is required for getting some cameras that don't have a world-accessible backdoor, with a dash of UPnP thrown in by default to make discovery easy for everyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    Idk about that, and i'm fucking stupid.

  4. #4

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    https://www.axis.com/

    They're a world class leading company for a reason.

  5. #5
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    Good fucking luck/work is required for getting some cameras that don't have a world-accessible backdoor, with a dash of UPnP thrown in by default to make discovery easy for everyone.
    Air gapping should prevent most issues, should it not?
    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan Dax View Post
    https://www.axis.com/

    They're a world class leading company for a reason.
    And we have no budget.
    nevar forget

  6. #6
    Mallet Head Donor 56k Lagman's Avatar
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    before anyone shames me I recommended a proper vendor, Heitel, Before we went down the hikvision path. I've worked with hikvision too and although clunky it does work. Also can't backdoor an NVR when it isn't connected to the network with Internet access

    Quote Originally Posted by Duckslayer View Post
    I should be home.now but I keep stopping to post. I'm in need of a mega poo. so much so that I'm tempted to leave slurry across one of these gardens and deal with the wiping later. gonna toss a coin

    phoneposting

  7. #7
    Donor Sparq's Avatar
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    While I congratulate you on your audacity to squeeze a drone out of this, keep in mind ~

    Something middle of the range like a DJI Spark will set you back hundreds of euros and be limited to approximately 15-20 minutes of flight endurance. About a thousand will buy you something with 20-30 minutes. These are not absolutes, just what you'd get from DJI. I also read somewhere there were new laws in Germany regarding drones, as of Oct '17, be sure to check you won't fall afoul.

    Anything on WiFi (Drone, Drone Camera & Standalone Camera) will be vulnerable to jamming. Any drone flying on a static station would be tempting to the kid with a penchant for plinking things. As an aside, any WiFi camera you do install should have a cable running from it to an inaccessible point the children cannot investigate to deceive them that it isn't using WiFi.

    I'm going to bed now, if you don't come up with a solution I have some follow-up questions,

    How no-budget is your no budget, ball-park?
    Would it be feasible to have each camera in line of sight of at least one other camera?
    Last edited by Sparq; April 18 2018 at 04:32:13 PM.

  8. #8
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparq View Post
    While I congratulate you on your audacity to squeeze a drone out of this, keep in mind ~

    Something middle of the range like a DJI Spark will set you back hundreds of euros and be limited to approximately 15-20 minutes of flight endurance. About a thousand will buy you something with 20-30 minutes. These are not absolutes, just what you'd get from DJI. I also read somewhere there were new laws in Germany regarding drones, as of Oct '17, be sure to check you won't fall afoul.

    Anything on WiFi (Drone, Drone Camera & Standalone Camera) will be vulnerable to jamming. Any drone flying on a static station would be tempting to the kid with a penchant for plinking things. As an aside, any WiFi camera you do install should have a cable running from it to an inaccessible point the children cannot investigate to deceive them that it isn't using WiFi.

    I'm going to bed now, if you don't come up with a solution I have some follow-up questions,

    How no-budget is your no budget, ball-park?
    Would it be feasible to have each camera in line of sight of at least one other camera?
    Yeah, I shelved the drone idea due to flight time and us being somewhat close to an airport and probably in a strict no-fly-no-matter-how-tiny-zone. At least for anything worthwhile.

    The budget is tiny, I doubt I can get more than 2k or something, really depends on my first ballpark figure. But the school is too big to cover that we get overlapping fields of view. And all cameras will be using cable, as I don't want them to connect to anything but their dedicated station due to privacy laws alone.
    nevar forget

  9. #9
    Donor Sparq's Avatar
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    Oh well your budget is much higher than I expected, actually.

    Well, there are plenty of cheap multi-camera DVR kits here in Aus. I imagine it's the same for you there.

    (example)

    Basically, it sounds like what you're after is a cheap DVR kit from a reputable retailer since this is just off-the-shelf consumer stuff anyway. Probably, if it were being done professionally, you'd be paying more for the installation than the kit itself. As long as you keep in mind you'll probably need to figure out how much cable you need you should be fine. Might be an idea to see if there's any other teachers you can rope into helping you though, if you're going to have to do something like punch holes in bricks or crawl around ceiling spaces to spool out cable.
    Last edited by Sparq; April 19 2018 at 03:55:46 AM.

  10. #10
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    I'm most likely going with the Hikvision stuff Lagman suggested. What's going to be expensive is getting the cables to run for hundreds of meters with POE.

    We need to cross the school grounds between our two buildings that's going to be a problem but iirc we got a canal for the heating system that may be usable.

    We are a school that teaches a decent amount of shop classes, I got some very capable colleagues.

    Tapapapatalk
    nevar forget

  11. #11
    Straight Hustlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    I'm most likely going with the Hikvision stuff Lagman suggested. What's going to be expensive is getting the cables to run for hundreds of meters with POE.

    We need to cross the school grounds between our two buildings that's going to be a problem but iirc we got a canal for the heating system that may be usable.

    We are a school that teaches a decent amount of shop classes, I got some very capable colleagues.

    Tapapapatalk
    One possibility would be to use powerline adapters, they make them now that do POE

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Powerline-E...-/251783887138
    or
    https://www.devolo.com/en/Business-S...Single-Adapter

    Or you can use something like this https://www.amazon.com/TP-LINK-Power.../dp/B004UBUB7C

    after a power line adapter to add POE.

  12. #12
    Duckslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    I'm most likely going with the Hikvision stuff Lagman suggested. What's going to be expensive is getting the cables to run for hundreds of meters with POE.

    We need to cross the school grounds between our two buildings that's going to be a problem but iirc we got a canal for the heating system that may be usable.

    We are a school that teaches a decent amount of shop classes, I got some very capable colleagues.

    Tapapapatalk
    My uncle is a CCTV man, has his own little business. Uses hikvision gear. Ive installed a fair few of them and they are decent. Standard to program so all in all good shit.
    Yeah just run all cat 6 from the NVR to near the cameras, then just do a shorter poe run. Straddling two buildings you'll need to use something with steel tines running through it and strap the cat6 to it. Maybe some dropwire. Would be better to use the canal as your cat6 wont be outdoor suitable

  13. #13
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    I know that I can add POE on the last meters and will do where possible. And yes, I intend to bury any Cat6 that is outside. We should have cable canals to most sections. We need to put up a mast at one spot, but that is unavoidable anyway.
    nevar forget

  14. #14
    Duckslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    I know that I can add POE on the last meters and will do where possible. And yes, I intend to bury any Cat6 that is outside. We should have cable canals to most sections. We need to put up a mast at one spot, but that is unavoidable anyway.
    Honestly youre probably fine running POE over 100m too, if it makes it easier. Ive found the defined limits of cat 5 and cat 6 are somewhat conservative
    Test it beforehand. Roll out the length and try it. Might save a bit of mess and hassle.

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