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Thread: Gun Laws and Gun Rights Discussion

  1. #21
    XenosisMk4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    a quick poll reveals we don't have a clue, but maybe this is chance for a slightly improved thread

    pls
    It should be in the mod actions log, no?

    edit: my number one problem with US gun control is that you can buy a gun 3 years before you can drink a pint

    what the fuck system is that

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by XenosisMk4 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    a quick poll reveals we don't have a clue, but maybe this is chance for a slightly improved thread

    pls
    It should be in the mod actions log, no?

    edit: my number one problem with US gun control is that you can buy a gun 3 years before you can drink a pint

    what the fuck system is that
    So they can practice using them sobre before moving up and using them drunk obviously.

  3. #23
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    Makes sense.

  4. #24

  5. #25

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    pls no

  6. #26
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post

    What makes you think only "good guys" have guns in the USA (not including criminals). You have to have some really serious issues to not get a gun in yank land. Like being really bad (no criminal).
    I absolutely don't think that only good guys have guns in the USA, i think you misunderstood me somewhat
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  7. #27

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    A photo of Trump holding a list of things to say to shooting victims.



    We have a President who needs people to write things for him to say in order to sound like a decent human being.

  8. #28

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    Sounds like a perfect business synergy between Erik Prince's Blackwater Academi and his sister, Education Secretary Betsy DeVos.

    Keeping it all in the family.

  9. #29
    Straight Hustlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    tbh I'm personally totally conflicted on this issue

    i find guns cool and would love to be able to have one for target shooting, hunting or in the WORST CASE SCENARIO which I think is unlikely to ever happen, self defense

    on the other hand, giving everyone access to guns is a surefire way to just fucking wreck civilization as we know it

    how to regulate that only the "good guys" have guns is a problem i cannot think any realistic solution for

    the current situation in the US is the result of having a policy that is oriented towards everyone having guns and anybody sane can see how that's working out
    You have to have some really serious issues to not get a gun in yank land. Like being really bad (no criminal).
    This tbh is a big part of the problem and its truly a difficult one to solve well. Basically aside from the usual means of being barred from possession a weapon, such as being convicted of a violent felony or serious drug charge, or have been committed to an asylum against your will, the government has no real way of knowing who shouldn't have a gun. Due to the terms of HIPAA, Mental health care providers are legally barred from approaching authorities unless you issue a specific threat against someone or your self. You could be a violent sociopath who has harmed animals and even people your entire life, but as long as you do not tell your shrink "I Want to kill X" where X is yourself or a specific individual, they cannot do anything, and can even be sued and lose their license for doing so.

    There has also been a lot in the news lately about how Trump stop the implementation of the law that Obama enacted that prevented people who have mental health issues from owning fire arms. I thought it was insane move but when I actually read through the text of what the law was and who it actually banned from owning a firearm, its was actually pointless and clearly discriminatory and feel good law [which is why the ACLU of all folks fought against it]. It barred people who receive mental health benefits through Social Security Assistance from owning guns on that basis alone. Personally, I am far less concerned about an old timer who cant live alone or someone with Alzheimer's owning a gun than someone who is young and angry that the system is blind to.

    So to me it is quite a quagmire that we have here, trying to balance the rights of the many both with respects to their right to own a firearm and their right to privacy with their healthcare providers and I don't see any clear cut solution to it. We're clearly on one side of the pendulum where we err to much to respecting the individuals 2nd amendment rights and that should change. But we must be cautious swinging in the opposite way in that we are not discriminating against people who have issues, issues that are often temporary or can be managed and worked out. The last thing we want to do is further ostracize an already vulnerable segment of the population and discourage them from getting the help they need.

  10. #30
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by helgur View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    tbh I'm personally totally conflicted on this issue

    i find guns cool and would love to be able to have one for target shooting, hunting or in the WORST CASE SCENARIO which I think is unlikely to ever happen, self defense

    on the other hand, giving everyone access to guns is a surefire way to just fucking wreck civilization as we know it

    how to regulate that only the "good guys" have guns is a problem i cannot think any realistic solution for

    the current situation in the US is the result of having a policy that is oriented towards everyone having guns and anybody sane can see how that's working out
    Having a liberal gun policy isn't the problem. Treating gun ownership as a right is. It shouldn't be a right but a privilege. If you want a gun you have to prove that you are a capable individual that is genuinely interested in owning a firearm for a legitimate purpose, either for hunting or sporting activities and store it securely.

    There's nothing wrong with allowing people access to guns, but handing them out like candy with little to no oversight is plain retarded.
    A reasonable position.


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  12. #32
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    To add to what Straight Hustlin said the Supreme Court has always taken a firm stance against Government removing Constitutional rights by putting people on lists without there being strict judicial oversight.

    This is why the use of the terror watch list/no fly list as a method of banning people from owning guns was never going to fly in the Supreme Court, because beyond the fact that the lists are riddled with errors, the lack of due process involved in the lists could easily be misused by Government and it agencies to remove a Constitutional Right without demonstrating cause.

    The Supreme Court also holds that it is the Government who must make the case why a citizen should be denied a Constitutional Right, not the Citizen who must prove to the Government that they should have that Right.

    For example - Declare ANTIFA a terrorist organization, make a list of anyone who may have ANTIFA links or sympathies, and then deny them the right to own a gun. If you want to contest being on that list spend years and huge sums of money fighting the Government through the court system vs. the Government going to court and proving to a judge that you are a member of a listed terror organization.

    You don't have a Constitutional Right to board an airplane but you do have a Constitutional Right to own a gun.

  13. #33
    Sacul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight Hustlin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lief Siddhe View Post
    tbh I'm personally totally conflicted on this issue

    i find guns cool and would love to be able to have one for target shooting, hunting or in the WORST CASE SCENARIO which I think is unlikely to ever happen, self defense

    on the other hand, giving everyone access to guns is a surefire way to just fucking wreck civilization as we know it

    how to regulate that only the "good guys" have guns is a problem i cannot think any realistic solution for

    the current situation in the US is the result of having a policy that is oriented towards everyone having guns and anybody sane can see how that's working out
    You have to have some really serious issues to not get a gun in yank land. Like being really bad (no criminal).
    This tbh is a big part of the problem and its truly a difficult one to solve well. Basically aside from the usual means of being barred from possession a weapon, such as being convicted of a violent felony or serious drug charge, or have been committed to an asylum against your will, the government has no real way of knowing who shouldn't have a gun. Due to the terms of HIPAA, Mental health care providers are legally barred from approaching authorities unless you issue a specific threat against someone or your self. You could be a violent sociopath who has harmed animals and even people your entire life, but as long as you do not tell your shrink "I Want to kill X" where X is yourself or a specific individual, they cannot do anything, and can even be sued and lose their license for doing so.

    There has also been a lot in the news lately about how Trump stop the implementation of the law that Obama enacted that prevented people who have mental health issues from owning fire arms. I thought it was insane move but when I actually read through the text of what the law was and who it actually banned from owning a firearm, its was actually pointless and clearly discriminatory and feel good law [which is why the ACLU of all folks fought against it]. It barred people who receive mental health benefits through Social Security Assistance from owning guns on that basis alone. Personally, I am far less concerned about an old timer who cant live alone or someone with Alzheimer's owning a gun than someone who is young and angry that the system is blind to.

    So to me it is quite a quagmire that we have here, trying to balance the rights of the many both with respects to their right to own a firearm and their right to privacy with their healthcare providers and I don't see any clear cut solution to it. We're clearly on one side of the pendulum where we err to much to respecting the individuals 2nd amendment rights and that should change. But we must be cautious swinging in the opposite way in that we are not discriminating against people who have issues, issues that are often temporary or can be managed and worked out. The last thing we want to do is further ostracize an already vulnerable segment of the population and discourage them from getting the help they need.
    Read what Helgur said, solves alot imo.

  14. #34
    Straight Hustlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    Read what Helgur said, solves alot imo.
    If only it was simple. TBH repealing the 2nd amendment is a pipe dream at this point with politics being as divisive as they are currently. I mean honestly you wont even get the required number of states to have a convention if its on the agenda.

  15. #35
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  16. #36
    Cosmin's Avatar
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    Nobody really needs assault rifles in their homes. It is as simple as that.

    Saw the other day a dude on fb who used a circular saw to irrevocably destroy his AR16. That was because if you want to get rid of it legally you have to sell it to somebody else, so the gun is never really out of circulation. I found the comments particularly disturbing, some quotes:

    - what if the government comes for you? How can you defend yourself?
    - muh 2nd amendment usual bs;
    - different tinfoil hat theories including anything from aliens to zombies.
    Whilst I can really dig the zombie apocalypse part, if the government comes for you with guns, best you could do with your assault rifle is commit suicide by swat. Nothing else.

    Just ban assault rifles for the general population, keep them armed forces in service only. Problem may not be entirely solved, but it's a good start seeing the latest shootings were all done with assault rifles.
    Guns make the news, science doesn't.

  17. #37
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    semis practical rate of fire isnt much lower but the initial blasting of a packed class would produce less casualties

    thing is somehow i think bannin autos will be even more effort than proper customer screening aka what helgur said

  18. #38
    Donor Pattern's Avatar
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    I no longer take constitutional arguments with any good faith. Given how quick Conservatives are to blame computer games or films, they would happily shit all over the first amendment (or any other for that matter) to protect the second.

    At this point, I'm just morbidly waiting for the worst possible consequence of a politically disenfranchised population with lots of guns. 2nd amendment solutions indeed.

  19. #39
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    I doubt bringing rate of fire or bullet spread into discussion or law is going to make much of a difference to be honest.

    Thing is Americans are terrified of stuff for some reason and it stems from everything they're spoonfed by the media and government. Until that will change, I doubt they'll give up their armories. Unfortunately.

    Michael Crichton wrote a lovely book named State of Fear which sends a very clear message - it's easier to rule people who are afraid of everything. Be it brown people, climate change, no more corn syrup or maple syrup, you name it. New years, new fears.

    If people are afraid, they don't have time to debate the shitty policies (like no free healthcare, for example) that are shoved up their collective bum.


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    Guns make the news, science doesn't.

  20. #40
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    I have a solution to gun control, taken straight from my arse of course, but so is the state of commentary on gun rights in the us. The 2nd amendment was written when owning guns meant flintlock rifles and pistols, before even the percussion cap enabled people to kill one another in the rain. That would be obvious to anyone but ignored by almost everyone as well.

    Problem is that there are so many guns in the US that any ban or even buy back of guns would simply never work. What would work would be a supreme court decision to allow gun and ammunition makers, sellers and buyers to be sued. To be honest, while I'm not surprised this has never worked in the US, given the obsessive mania for guns there, it would be a powerful weapon against the proliferation of arms, because if there's one thing that scares americans more than anything else, it's money.
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