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Thread: Operation "No more layoffs"

  1. #81
    Super Maderator DonorGlobal Moderator Hels's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolin View Post
    Haven't touched or looked at the game in atleast 5 years now. Any point in downloading it other than to spin whatever ship I might have left?
    Im having fun again. Small gangs with corp, big fleets in alliance (nc.). Mostly UK corp so lots of bants.
    NC.

    lol

  2. #82
    Meester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    When you log off, you're not there, and most of your stuff can be left docked, in highsec to boot.
    And especially these days, even nullsec assets are (AFAIK) damned safe even if all structures in a system get burned down.
    Important to note that wormhole assets are not safe and when the citadel[s] go down there, then everything [asset-wise] dies in the fire.
    I think construction materials in production also get blown up and stuff in the corporate hangar can be destroyed. And you do have to pay to get your assets back and wait a period.
    Personally I think in null-sec everything should be destroyed like in wormhole space but what if someone comes back after some time [after the change] and finds their stuff blown up? While catering to those gone might
    not always be applicable, if that change happens then all the offline players items should be transported to their home station in high-sec or the nearest npc one.

    And outposts are being replaced, this year with citadels and special citadel look-alikes. So I think citadels are better in the respect in that they can be destroyed once finalised and hopefully the update
    on the 20th will reduce their ability to be a totally safe haven for capitals.
    Last edited by Meester; March 18 2018 at 03:14:37 PM.

  3. #83
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meester View Post
    but what if someone comes back after some time [after the change] and finds their stuff blown up?
    Are we in 2018 or are we not? Everyone can log in for free as an Alpha (since late 2016), iirc they can therefore access their stuff, contract things to be moved/liquidated.

    If they:
    played recently enough to have put things in Citadels (>April 2016);
    left the game;
    and haven't now taken the ~18months opportunity to relocate their docked assets;

    then maybe it would be best for CCP to make their stuff vulnerable & send them an email alerting them when its attacked (with an opt-out account setting, probably reset per citadel). There might actually be more returning players if they're provoked & find they can participate casually for free, else they can courier contract or fire-sale some stuff (maybe then also fund a PLEX to Omega for the rest of the defence). It'd be a way for active players to generate more courier demand & item market supply via unsubbed players reacting.
    If they don't care to respond to this asset threat, chances are they're not coming back any time soon/ever, so no real harm done to the game. And if that's the minority response, the overall response is a positive one for the active playbase size & diversity.

    Again, this'd only apply to stuff put in Citadels. Anything left in Outposts when they're eventually replaced (and then attacked) probably wants some conditional relocation to home station/highsec if the account hadn't played since Citadels were added.
    Last edited by Daneel Trevize; March 18 2018 at 03:55:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    Idk about that, and i'm fucking stupid.

  4. #84
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    heh

    "stfu and play ... or else"


    As most seem to have missed it, Hrafnkell Oskarsson's out. To an interesting place though. With actual work. Then again, he actually did work. So unlike Torfi. Reynir must be having a ball.
    Last edited by Virtuozzo; March 18 2018 at 08:39:24 PM.
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

  5. #85

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    Threatening to destroy inactive players assets would be a gamble, either someone returns or you will lose any prospects of the players now without assets returning.

  6. #86
    Malcanis's Avatar
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    AFAIK asset safety still applies, although there will be a minimum cost.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keieueue View Post
    I love Malcanis!

  7. #87
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtuozzo View Post
    heh

    "stfu and play ... or else"


    As most seem to have missed it, Hrafnkell Oskarsson's out. To an interesting place though. With actual work. Then again, he actually did work. So unlike Torfi. Reynir must be having a ball.
    Interesting game, from what we know. Not a lot of the old crowd left now ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  8. #88
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daneel Trevize View Post
    The fundamental issue with Eve, where everthing has value (because people want that & like the economy from it), and you aren't compelled to log in to risk anything:
    So, there used to be this MMORPG that was browser-based, humans vs zombies in a town, and you got action points per hour. Your character was at their in-game location until you used an action point to move them, so you were always at risk if spotted, and as a human would have to work together to barricade a building to ensure a single zombie couldn't out-AP you at tearing a way in & dpsing you down. There were other mechanics with having to roam to find medkits to sustain HP, but the point is that in Eve, unless you live(d) in w-space away from stations, there's nothing that can truly destroy that which you value. When you log off, you're not there, and most of your stuff can be left docked, in highsec to boot.
    And especially these days, even nullsec assets are (AFAIK) damned safe even if all structures in a system get burned down. Your biggest loss might be reputation & pecking order for sov. Hell, even w-space now has some variation of the citadel asset safety last I heard, which fundamentally destroys the game my main corp played in which we were risking everything in our POS whether we were logged in or not, with RNG connections to any part of the galaxy & only the stock of ships we'd dared to escort in (and we could be podded away from).

    If you dilute the risk in Eve, you hugely diminish the value of putting in the time to make anything, or break anything, which goes against the largest strength which is its complex economy.
    Any arenas that are instanced or isolated and can't be reached & attacked by everyone therefore have this significant downside to them for an MMO, even if the actually-balanced combat matchups & mechanics can be a lot of fun (i.e. the AT fights, and why Sisi is somewhat enjoyable in quick doses but generally not recognised as having any meaning/value/way to showcase skill).

    It could probably instead be said that Eve has way too much fucking space, that people aren't pushed into enough conflict over opportunities or even just caused to be passing traffic in order to perform most activities.
    I mean, there's always 10k+ players logged in, they're just generally not somewhere you can easily get to & interrupt (because docked, or arse end of nullsec, or via camps that aren't overwhelmed by 5minutes-worth of traffic forming together to smash them).
    I agree that there isn't a compelling reason to log into EVE .

    I disagree that that is all down to risk-aversion though. I think you have to take incentives into account as well ...

    And I also disagree that implementing arenas necessarily diminishes, or dilutes risk in EVE. That all depends on how it is implemented. Many have proposed implementations and designs for arenas in the years that I played EVE. Some of those designs did indeed eliminate/reduce risks in EVE. Those designs were shit. Many others, however, did not.

    You state that arenas are instanced or isolated, and can't be reached & attacked by everyone. This is ofcourse true. But this only limits the number of players you'll be fighting. Meanwhile you know you will be fighting, and maybe lose you ship in the process. This is a more dangerous situation than you flying, by your lonesome, through, say, low-sec. Or anywhere where you have endless ways of avoiding a fight. In the end, I see this as reducing some risks (of being surprised/ganked), while increasing others (of losing your ship, ISK). On the whole 'risk' could/would be neutral, just differently distributed.

    And if there is real loss, arenas do not diminish the importance of the economy either. Players would still need to buy and equip their ship to enter in an arena. And losing mean losing your ship, and, depending on design, losing the (mandatory) wager you (and others) put on the fight. Unlike in, say, WoT, or the Star Trek MMO, all that would have to be replaced. In game. Through the economy. Arenas need not to be (loss) risk free. In fact, they shouldn't be. (Regarding wagering and betting: without a 'cut' ISK only gets recycled. But introducing a cut would also create an economic/ISK siphon. Which the EVE economy needs more than evar I suspect.)

    Support arenas with leaderboards, and the ability to watch the fights (say, like in the tournaments of old, but only if you put a wager on), this will pull players in, as well as provide a reason to enter into the fight (or bet on it). Spread the arena stations around high and low sec (higher rewards, lower cuts, bigger ships, more gladiators for these) also spreads the punters around (not everyone living in Jita, if that's still a thing). This creates markets around those systems as well. Good for the EVE economy. Arenas can be used to address some of the other issues EVE has as well.

    Arenas would provide more (and easier to get into) 'fun' in the game (which it desperately needs). It would also provide something to do for players besides ship spinning and chatting on vox (and by the end, that was how most of my time was spend in EVE. Getting a gang together alone took over an hour of thumb-twiddling! I doubt that has changed much). And it would provide new players (and old!) with a platform to test fits and experience 'good fights'. If done well, it could draw players in, and keep them there. There is, after all, endless variety to be had in EVE spaceship fights. And it is not just a new slide or chute in the massively overcrowded sandbox that is EVE either. Its connection to the rest of the game is explicit, through the economy, as said. And it re-provides some core functionality that the game has, sadly, lost since, say 2006.

    In the end it all depends on how it is implemented. But there are MMO's that have nothing but (a version of) arenas for 'gameplay', and that works well for them. And this idea definitely beats spurious 'game designs' (or more chutes and ladders) to force players to fight each other that don't really want to or, really, need to.

    In the end I'd say that EVE's fundamental issue is that it currently lacks incentives for conflict. Arenas could provide that. Even if it is only one-on-one, or small groups against each other, players are still shooting at each other.

    (if done correctly: the chance of which is, I think, about zero with CCP. I'm also sure they can come up with a thousand 'ethics' reasons for why they should go fishing instead.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  9. #89
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Eve is probably the one game where is should be possible to do arenas without actually doing arenas.

    It'd take maybe a couple of weeks tinkering with FW.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  10. #90
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Eve is probably the one game where is should be possible to do arenas without actually doing arenas.

    It'd take maybe a couple of weeks tinkering with FW.
    Or you refactor missions (keep the scenery?)

    And no 'graphics design' bottleneck either ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  11. #91
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Eve is probably the one game where is should be possible to do arenas without actually doing arenas.

    It'd take maybe a couple of weeks tinkering with FW.
    Or you refactor missions (keep the scenery?)

    And no 'graphics design' bottleneck either ...
    FW missions pitting capsuleers against each other in pop up arenas for warfare control.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  12. #92
    Meester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post

    FW missions pitting capsuleers against each other in pop up arenas for warfare control.
    So basically plexes?

  13. #93
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Eve is probably the one game where is should be possible to do arenas without actually doing arenas.

    It'd take maybe a couple of weeks tinkering with FW.
    Or you refactor missions (keep the scenery?)

    And no 'graphics design' bottleneck either ...
    FW missions pitting capsuleers against each other in pop up arenas for warfare control.
    You can tie it into all sorts of things, but the idea was to bring new players into PvP at the earliest opportunity without it being too off putting for them.

    To that end, I'd tie it into the end of the tutorial, as another 'mission' (read: arena) agent, and have them battle it out against each other in those noob ships on a no-pain-all-gain two-go-in-one-comes-out fashion. From there on in they can follow up to more higher tiered agents, and start using frigates, destroyers, cruisers, and eventually battleships for higher risk, higher rewards etc. mixed in with everyone else eventually in low sec (or null-sec with arena modules for those fancy stations I know nothing about). Those who don't want to fight can bet and watch. Or do whatever else they want.

    To create this pathway from noob to vet, you'd need as low an entry barrier as possible, with as few hoops to jump through as possible. I don't think FW ticks that box.

    But then again: what do I know ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  14. #94
    Sacul's Avatar
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    Some of you guys are really showing your bittervet medals again aswell a lack of current trends and affairs in game.
    Altho its not all you discussed above there are loads of players doing the twitch thing. So many even they are no longer instantly grief killed by a special ops fleet.
    There are also people like bjornbee and killahbee who regularly take out 'all are invited' fleets out. Especially bjornbee does so to good effect while on twitch.
    Then there are organized fleets between say horde vs nc (eg No caps allowed or Max Battle Cruiser size).
    And allways comedy clowns like that guy, twitch carebear, who spend 3 hours fitting a moros and then trying to enter PL and NC capital 0.0 system. Yeah he got doomsdayed 1out and totally lost it live on twitch. He had never heard of PL/NC, guy just picked the wrong region to solo capital brawl.



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  15. #95
    Sacul's Avatar
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    By totally lost it i mean he went apeshit spergelord batshit crazy not understanding where he was and what happened.


    Verstuurd vanaf mijn LENNY2 met Tapatalk
    Schopenhauer:

    All truth passes through three stages.
    First, it is ridiculed.
    Second, it is violently opposed.
    Third, it is accepted as being self-evident..

  16. #96
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    That seems an irellevant anecdote to the overall playerbase behaviour & game design, but ok.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    Idk about that, and i'm fucking stupid.

  17. #97

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    Well, spergelords pretty much sums up the playerbase.

  18. #98
    Joshua Foiritain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacul View Post
    By totally lost it i mean he went apeshit spergelord batshit crazy not understanding where he was and what happened.


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    Whyyyyyy did you not include a link?



  19. #99
    Keckers's Avatar
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    The rise of organised fights probably tracks pretty well with a decline in the overall state of the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  20. #100

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    And people lost their minds when Shadoo suggested staged fights in 1 region.

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