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Thread: Docker - Hype or Help?

  1. #21
    Lana Torrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post

    The thing is though, we use our old (and therefor already paid for) vmware equipment for dev/test..
    Most of the problems, with software development, in my experience, are caused by this fact. Its because software is built and tested in environments that don't even get close to resembling what they both run on and encounter from a load perspective on a daily basis, so when you work all that out, it ends up making the TCO on that software way more expensive in the long run actually.

    In this case VMware can't even get within an order of magnitude of cloud, cost wise. Also, think about how long I have to own the test environment with VMware vs cloud. Does your test team work 24/7?
    We have had at least 2 different dev teams complain that their dev boxes weren't available 24/7... Also I think VMware is a lot cheaper now than it was whenever you ran those numbers.. At best with overnight shutdowns and scaling we save 10-15% in aws in the clients that are doing it right. The clients that did a lift and shift, changed nothing and then forgot about it are seeing almost a 50% increase in cost..

    Maybe datacenters are cheap here?
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  2. #22
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post

    The thing is though, we use our old (and therefor already paid for) vmware equipment for dev/test..
    Most of the problems, with software development, in my experience, are caused by this fact. Its because software is built and tested in environments that don't even get close to resembling what they both run on and encounter from a load perspective on a daily basis, so when you work all that out, it ends up making the TCO on that software way more expensive in the long run actually.

    In this case VMware can't even get within an order of magnitude of cloud, cost wise. Also, think about how long I have to own the test environment with VMware vs cloud. Does your test team work 24/7?
    We have had at least 2 different dev teams complain that their dev boxes weren't available 24/7... Also I think VMware is a lot cheaper now than it was whenever you ran those numbers.. At best with overnight shutdowns and scaling we save 10-15% in aws in the clients that are doing it right. The clients that did a lift and shift, changed nothing and then forgot about it are seeing almost a 50% increase in cost..

    Maybe datacenters are cheap here?
    2012 was the last time I touched anything with hardware we owned under it. it was literally a factor of 10x after 6 months of refactoring, and that was migrating from an infrastructure that already had gone through one tech refresh from bare metal to virtualized. That's doing things like rewriting everything to use the cloud native queueing service, vs trying to run a cluster in vms. Moving to managed db instances. Building archival workflows to move off a backup solution to multiple s3 regions, etc. Fuck that last part alone was probably close to 100 times cheaper, including the manpower it took.

    As for as VMware being cheaper now. I can see how they;'d have to do that
    meh

  3. #23
    Lana Torrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post

    The thing is though, we use our old (and therefor already paid for) vmware equipment for dev/test..
    Most of the problems, with software development, in my experience, are caused by this fact. Its because software is built and tested in environments that don't even get close to resembling what they both run on and encounter from a load perspective on a daily basis, so when you work all that out, it ends up making the TCO on that software way more expensive in the long run actually.

    In this case VMware can't even get within an order of magnitude of cloud, cost wise. Also, think about how long I have to own the test environment with VMware vs cloud. Does your test team work 24/7?
    We have had at least 2 different dev teams complain that their dev boxes weren't available 24/7... Also I think VMware is a lot cheaper now than it was whenever you ran those numbers.. At best with overnight shutdowns and scaling we save 10-15% in aws in the clients that are doing it right. The clients that did a lift and shift, changed nothing and then forgot about it are seeing almost a 50% increase in cost..

    Maybe datacenters are cheap here?
    2012 was the last time I touched anything with hardware we owned under it. it was literally a factor of 10x after 6 months of refactoring, and that was migrating from an infrastructure that already had gone through one tech refresh from bare metal to virtualized. That's doing things like rewriting everything to use the cloud native queueing service, vs trying to run a cluster in vms. Moving to managed db instances. Building archival workflows to move off a backup solution to multiple s3 regions, etc. Fuck that last part alone was probably close to 100 times cheaper, including the manpower it took.

    As for as VMware being cheaper now. I can see how they;'d have to do that
    Its not just vmware that's gotten cheaper. The bum has fallen out of the hardware business with full servers costing a fraction of what they did 5 years ago. SANs are also amazingly cheap now because virtualized distributed storage has made them practically obsolete.. You can almost fill a full datacenter full of hardware for a song (ok its not that cheap yet but its getting close). Taking all of that in to account, and also taking in to account most mainline businesses dont develop most of their own software and therefor have to wait for vendors to add all the good cloud stuff (many of which arent because they want to sell their own cloud product) you get to the situation where 'cloud' isnt actually that much cheaper.. You also HAVE to pay.. Try dicking around with amazon for a few months and you'll get a phone call from one of their accounts team informing you that if you dont pay by the end of the month your servers are getting turned off and your root account binned (ask me how i know). What you CAN do though is get hardware from say dell, then not pay them for 6 months and slowly dribble cash to them when they start following you up, because they need you to keep buying hardware..

    Yes there is a compelling argument for cloud in some cases.. But I still can't see it in all cases and right now that's what everyone is doing. The cloud fixes everything, all hail the cloud..

    Anyway this thread was about docker and not 'clouds', which is something i'm actually interested in learning about..
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  4. #24
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post

    The thing is though, we use our old (and therefor already paid for) vmware equipment for dev/test..
    Most of the problems, with software development, in my experience, are caused by this fact. Its because software is built and tested in environments that don't even get close to resembling what they both run on and encounter from a load perspective on a daily basis, so when you work all that out, it ends up making the TCO on that software way more expensive in the long run actually.

    In this case VMware can't even get within an order of magnitude of cloud, cost wise. Also, think about how long I have to own the test environment with VMware vs cloud. Does your test team work 24/7?
    We have had at least 2 different dev teams complain that their dev boxes weren't available 24/7... Also I think VMware is a lot cheaper now than it was whenever you ran those numbers.. At best with overnight shutdowns and scaling we save 10-15% in aws in the clients that are doing it right. The clients that did a lift and shift, changed nothing and then forgot about it are seeing almost a 50% increase in cost..

    Maybe datacenters are cheap here?
    2012 was the last time I touched anything with hardware we owned under it. it was literally a factor of 10x after 6 months of refactoring, and that was migrating from an infrastructure that already had gone through one tech refresh from bare metal to virtualized. That's doing things like rewriting everything to use the cloud native queueing service, vs trying to run a cluster in vms. Moving to managed db instances. Building archival workflows to move off a backup solution to multiple s3 regions, etc. Fuck that last part alone was probably close to 100 times cheaper, including the manpower it took.

    As for as VMware being cheaper now. I can see how they;'d have to do that
    Its not just vmware that's gotten cheaper. The bum has fallen out of the hardware business with full servers costing a fraction of what they did 5 years ago. SANs are also amazingly cheap now because virtualized distributed storage has made them practically obsolete.. You can almost fill a full datacenter full of hardware for a song (ok its not that cheap yet but its getting close). Taking all of that in to account, and also taking in to account most mainline businesses dont develop most of their own software and therefor have to wait for vendors to add all the good cloud stuff (many of which arent because they want to sell their own cloud product) you get to the situation where 'cloud' isnt actually that much cheaper.. You also HAVE to pay.. Try dicking around with amazon for a few months and you'll get a phone call from one of their accounts team informing you that if you dont pay by the end of the month your servers are getting turned off and your root account binned (ask me how i know). What you CAN do though is get hardware from say dell, then not pay them for 6 months and slowly dribble cash to them when they start following you up, because they need you to keep buying hardware..

    Yes there is a compelling argument for cloud in some cases.. But I still can't see it in all cases and right now that's what everyone is doing. The cloud fixes everything, all hail the cloud..

    Anyway this thread was about docker and not 'clouds', which is something i'm actually interested in learning about..
    Docker's primary use case is the cloud. It is a child of the cloud, so to speak. The real point with "cloud" here is 12 factor architecture, which by adopting, basically makes the kind of deployment you talk about completely cost ineffective, old think and massively ineffective at 100% uptime, because as you say, most shops can't do the actual engineering required to make it work (like, are your databases pets or cattle?).

    I just looked and HP servers cost the same as they did last time I bought some, so... Cloud is way cheaper. I mean, I guess you can order equipment and then not pay your bills and thats an "advantage" with hardware, but I mostly have worked and consulted for businesses that can pay their bills, so idk about that.

    Your primary use case for docker is to build architectures that resemble the things you find in clouds. If you want to build something else, it may not actually be a good fit. It is, as Aea said up thread, opinionated, and that opinionation extends to how you are supposed to manage things cluster wide. The most practical way forward to do that is to use kubernetes. kubernetes runs nicely on premise, but again, at like double or triple the cost you actually need to pay, but hey, don't learn it because every ones doing it. Wouldn't want to allow too much chance of a stress free job with much less chasing other peoples bad code. You are letting what sounds like a personal bias ("I hate cloud") get in the way of learning something p easy and perhaps not have to hand hold tards who think windows is high tech.
    meh

  5. #25
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    I am very interested in docker, kubernetes and building applications that leverage the advantages of containers. You know, cloud® architecture and all. But since im a MS dev it feels like im swimming against the current. With dotnet core we can build the very same applications one could build in any other language, plop them in a linux container and build all the cool stuff people have been raving about the last couple of years.

    Last quarter we got a bunch of projects for customizing Dynamics CRM/365 solutions for some clients (booring), angularJS + whatever backend (just started learning angular and typescript is so nice) and uhh ... "modern" applications leveraging pre 2010 tech like WCF and SOAP :/ seriously.

    So yeah, if anyone has any input or suggestions just .. I would be very interested in it. Definitely gonna push this at work and do some presentations, but Germany being Germany, clients still dont like cloud very much and I feel like our CRM / sales / management is offering the same shit from 5 years ago.
    <Devec> hello captain Tyrehl
    <Devec> sailor of the persian seas
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox
    I swear you are some sort of biological weapon developed in the early '90's for the Yugoslav wars but they lost track of you at some point and now you're waging a psychological war on Western Europe without a clue what you're doing.

  6. #26

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    Stop being an MS dev then.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Stop being an MS dev then.
    I really hate to say this, but he's right. MS "seem" to be getting more enlightened about open source and modern development and scaling methods. I personally though 2016 was a big step in the right direction, but in practice its still kind of dumb. Like you can get docker, but its faked by spawning a VM in the background to run the docker container on which sort of defeats the point.

    I've also watched MS basically flail around for 20 years trying to figure out why people are leaving their development platform in droves, so... I'm not hopeful.
    meh

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Stop being an MS dev then.
    I really hate to say this, but he's right. MS "seem" to be getting more enlightened about open source and modern development and scaling methods. I personally though 2016 was a big step in the right direction, but in practice its still kind of dumb. Like you can get docker, but its faked by spawning a VM in the background to run the docker container on which sort of defeats the point.

    I've also watched MS basically flail around for 20 years trying to figure out why people are leaving their development platform in droves, so... I'm not hopeful.
    Why would I run docker on Windows though, hell even MSSQL 2017 runs natively on linux. Unless I need some specific ActiveDirectory shit or functionality tied to windows services (so .. legacy applications?) there is barely a reason not to just move to linux as the server operating system. And thats basically 90% of a distributed application anyway, right?

    IMO its just our clients, most of them are exclusively MS shops and thats all they know and want. Conservative German corporate landscape and equally conservative sales/management (on our side) is what annoys me.
    The .NET platform otoh has become so much better in the last year and a half, I feel really comfy with C# and I love the language. Cant imagine touching Java without contracting cancer, I am sure as hell I dont want to move to JS, Node & co. Sure there are a bunch of other languages I can dev on, but what advantages do I get when such a large portion of the big corporatey projects just rely on Angular for the frontend and whatever for the REST API in the backend.
    <Devec> hello captain Tyrehl
    <Devec> sailor of the persian seas
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox
    I swear you are some sort of biological weapon developed in the early '90's for the Yugoslav wars but they lost track of you at some point and now you're waging a psychological war on Western Europe without a clue what you're doing.

  9. #29
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrehl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Stop being an MS dev then.
    I really hate to say this, but he's right. MS "seem" to be getting more enlightened about open source and modern development and scaling methods. I personally though 2016 was a big step in the right direction, but in practice its still kind of dumb. Like you can get docker, but its faked by spawning a VM in the background to run the docker container on which sort of defeats the point.

    I've also watched MS basically flail around for 20 years trying to figure out why people are leaving their development platform in droves, so... I'm not hopeful.
    Why would I run docker on Windows though, hell even MSSQL 2017 runs natively on linux. Unless I need some specific ActiveDirectory shit or functionality tied to windows services (so .. legacy applications?) there is barely a reason not to just move to linux as the server operating system. And thats basically 90% of a distributed application anyway, right?

    IMO its just our clients, most of them are exclusively MS shops and thats all they know and want. Conservative German corporate landscape and equally conservative sales/management (on our side) is what annoys me.
    The .NET platform otoh has become so much better in the last year and a half, I feel really comfy with C# and I love the language. Cant imagine touching Java without contracting cancer, I am sure as hell I dont want to move to JS, Node & co. Sure there are a bunch of other languages I can dev on, but what advantages do I get when such a large portion of the big corporatey projects just rely on Angular for the frontend and whatever for the REST API in the backend.
    Java needs to be led out back and shot, along with the rest of Oracle. Especially when you look at their dodgy lobbying of the government to shut open source out of government use. Fuck them.

    I don't mind C# as a language. Ultimately you are right about being able to run it on whatever you want. The more modern way to look at docker though, is really, because your spawn time is low and can really be made practically ms, with the right kind of caching architecture for the images, to look at firing a single use function as a transaction in response to a sourced event. Its safer, you don't care about threading in application code (this is much closer to the fork/exec model of POSIX) and you basically treat your cluster as a big process table. Implementations of this model are Lambda on AWS and cloud functions on Google. We got pretty close in our own lab before they became generally available going along similar lines, but truthfully, we could never get a kernel engineer to finish that project . There was some interesting research around the erlang interpreter as spawned runtime on Xen as well which will probably resurface now that Elixir is getting trendy in the valley.

    This becomes a much more scalable way to use compute resources, meaning a huge increase in what was being called convergence or scale-in with VMs when that happened. VMs let you time share around multiple OS on the same hardware. Now you are treating your cluster as a set of cores on which to run threads, more or less as you would inside a program on a multi core host. where each function runs for (n)ms and you can look at scheduling it across an entire data centers worth of cores with (m) cores per actual interrupting bus in a kernel.. That's massively more scalable than running (x) kernels on top of (n) virtual cores on top of (m) real hypervisor kernels on top of (y) real cores. Its like a lot of the same ideas in high end HPC but realizing that if you aren't trying to simulate nuclear weapons, you really don't need nanosecond latencies and super expensive NUMA architectures and for most people, ms latencies are a o-fucking-k for most consumer facing workloads.

    A brief google search shows some event sourcing docs on the .NET platform, no obviously big frameworks or anything. There seems to be a lot more going on in the "usual" open source languages regarding reactive systems.
    Last edited by erichkknaar; October 7 2017 at 06:11:39 PM.
    meh

  10. #30
    Donor Aea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post

    The thing is though, we use our old (and therefor already paid for) vmware equipment for dev/test..
    Most of the problems, with software development, in my experience, are caused by this fact. Its because software is built and tested in environments that don't even get close to resembling what they both run on and encounter from a load perspective on a daily basis, so when you work all that out, it ends up making the TCO on that software way more expensive in the long run actually.

    In this case VMware can't even get within an order of magnitude of cloud, cost wise. Also, think about how long I have to own the test environment with VMware vs cloud. Does your test team work 24/7?
    We have had at least 2 different dev teams complain that their dev boxes weren't available 24/7... Also I think VMware is a lot cheaper now than it was whenever you ran those numbers.. At best with overnight shutdowns and scaling we save 10-15% in aws in the clients that are doing it right. The clients that did a lift and shift, changed nothing and then forgot about it are seeing almost a 50% increase in cost..

    Maybe datacenters are cheap here?
    2012 was the last time I touched anything with hardware we owned under it. it was literally a factor of 10x after 6 months of refactoring, and that was migrating from an infrastructure that already had gone through one tech refresh from bare metal to virtualized. That's doing things like rewriting everything to use the cloud native queueing service, vs trying to run a cluster in vms. Moving to managed db instances. Building archival workflows to move off a backup solution to multiple s3 regions, etc. Fuck that last part alone was probably close to 100 times cheaper, including the manpower it took.

    As for as VMware being cheaper now. I can see how they;'d have to do that
    Its not just vmware that's gotten cheaper. The bum has fallen out of the hardware business with full servers costing a fraction of what they did 5 years ago. SANs are also amazingly cheap now because virtualized distributed storage has made them practically obsolete.. You can almost fill a full datacenter full of hardware for a song (ok its not that cheap yet but its getting close). Taking all of that in to account, and also taking in to account most mainline businesses dont develop most of their own software and therefor have to wait for vendors to add all the good cloud stuff (many of which arent because they want to sell their own cloud product) you get to the situation where 'cloud' isnt actually that much cheaper.. You also HAVE to pay.. Try dicking around with amazon for a few months and you'll get a phone call from one of their accounts team informing you that if you dont pay by the end of the month your servers are getting turned off and your root account binned (ask me how i know). What you CAN do though is get hardware from say dell, then not pay them for 6 months and slowly dribble cash to them when they start following you up, because they need you to keep buying hardware..

    Yes there is a compelling argument for cloud in some cases.. But I still can't see it in all cases and right now that's what everyone is doing. The cloud fixes everything, all hail the cloud..

    Anyway this thread was about docker and not 'clouds', which is something i'm actually interested in learning about..
    The fuck are you talking about?

  11. #31
    Lana Torrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lana Torrin View Post

    The thing is though, we use our old (and therefor already paid for) vmware equipment for dev/test..
    Most of the problems, with software development, in my experience, are caused by this fact. Its because software is built and tested in environments that don't even get close to resembling what they both run on and encounter from a load perspective on a daily basis, so when you work all that out, it ends up making the TCO on that software way more expensive in the long run actually.

    In this case VMware can't even get within an order of magnitude of cloud, cost wise. Also, think about how long I have to own the test environment with VMware vs cloud. Does your test team work 24/7?
    We have had at least 2 different dev teams complain that their dev boxes weren't available 24/7... Also I think VMware is a lot cheaper now than it was whenever you ran those numbers.. At best with overnight shutdowns and scaling we save 10-15% in aws in the clients that are doing it right. The clients that did a lift and shift, changed nothing and then forgot about it are seeing almost a 50% increase in cost..

    Maybe datacenters are cheap here?
    2012 was the last time I touched anything with hardware we owned under it. it was literally a factor of 10x after 6 months of refactoring, and that was migrating from an infrastructure that already had gone through one tech refresh from bare metal to virtualized. That's doing things like rewriting everything to use the cloud native queueing service, vs trying to run a cluster in vms. Moving to managed db instances. Building archival workflows to move off a backup solution to multiple s3 regions, etc. Fuck that last part alone was probably close to 100 times cheaper, including the manpower it took.

    As for as VMware being cheaper now. I can see how they;'d have to do that
    Its not just vmware that's gotten cheaper. The bum has fallen out of the hardware business with full servers costing a fraction of what they did 5 years ago. SANs are also amazingly cheap now because virtualized distributed storage has made them practically obsolete.. You can almost fill a full datacenter full of hardware for a song (ok its not that cheap yet but its getting close). Taking all of that in to account, and also taking in to account most mainline businesses dont develop most of their own software and therefor have to wait for vendors to add all the good cloud stuff (many of which arent because they want to sell their own cloud product) you get to the situation where 'cloud' isnt actually that much cheaper.. You also HAVE to pay.. Try dicking around with amazon for a few months and you'll get a phone call from one of their accounts team informing you that if you dont pay by the end of the month your servers are getting turned off and your root account binned (ask me how i know). What you CAN do though is get hardware from say dell, then not pay them for 6 months and slowly dribble cash to them when they start following you up, because they need you to keep buying hardware..

    Yes there is a compelling argument for cloud in some cases.. But I still can't see it in all cases and right now that's what everyone is doing. The cloud fixes everything, all hail the cloud..

    Anyway this thread was about docker and not 'clouds', which is something i'm actually interested in learning about..
    The fuck are you talking about?
    That I can buy a nutanix 'cloud' with everything i need to run a medium sized organisation for basically fuck all (you dont need to pay sticker price btw, and you dont need to pay it all up front was my point) and because just about everyone i deal with doesnt do dev in house they get almost no benefit from going public cloud.. Sure, they don't have to worry about hardware issues, but I think in the last 5 years I've had probably 2-3 hours of time dealing with hardware issues.. Sure, they can't spin up and kill unlimited machines an hour, but they wouldn't anyway because they cant afford that and dont have the app support to allow it anyway.. What they can do is spin up new machines at no additional cost because everything is already paid for.

    And as an example to my point about 'if you dont do cloud well it costs you more'. We had a client employ an idiot who didnt understand cloud and managed to pipe their replication data over their public connection.. 3 days of that and they had a bill bigger than their entire previous year's IT budget. Yes I realise this is idiots being idiots and not the norm, but I have far more stories about cloud screw ups costing people more than they ever saved migrating to cloud than I do people actually saving money and time doing it. (but I do have some of those as well so dont go thinking i dont understand where its a good idea).

    I've also just realised most of the people in here saying its great are software devs of some sorts...
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  12. #32

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    If you're classing nutanix as "fuck all" then I have a bridge I would like to sell you

  13. #33
    Dee Jiensai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrehl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Stop being an MS dev then.
    I really hate to say this, but he's right. MS "seem" to be getting more enlightened about open source and modern development and scaling methods. I personally though 2016 was a big step in the right direction, but in practice its still kind of dumb. Like you can get docker, but its faked by spawning a VM in the background to run the docker container on which sort of defeats the point.

    I've also watched MS basically flail around for 20 years trying to figure out why people are leaving their development platform in droves, so... I'm not hopeful.
    Why would I run docker on Windows though, hell even MSSQL 2017 runs natively on linux. Unless I need some specific ActiveDirectory shit or functionality tied to windows services (so .. legacy applications?) there is barely a reason not to just move to linux as the server operating system. And thats basically 90% of a distributed application anyway, right?

    IMO its just our clients, most of them are exclusively MS shops and thats all they know and want. Conservative German corporate landscape and equally conservative sales/management (on our side) is what annoys me.
    I find that the biggest hurdle towards linux server selling/using is a lack of linux experienced workers. From Development to Support and everything in between, there are way way more people who can (and will) click their way though byzantine windows management/application menues than learn how to type 5 simple commands into a unix terminal.

    This goes as far as the project I took over because it wasn't working right: Raspberry PI 'embedded' system, on which the developer had installed Mono and a complete IDE on each production machine to compile the binary in place because he could not figure out any other way of doing it.
    (as a sidenote, the feeling you get from seeing a *.exe file in a linux process tree...)

    It is incredibly hard for businesses to get linux/unix- experienced people, and even training your own workforce is a uphill battle.

  14. #34
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dee Jiensai View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrehl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Stop being an MS dev then.
    I really hate to say this, but he's right. MS "seem" to be getting more enlightened about open source and modern development and scaling methods. I personally though 2016 was a big step in the right direction, but in practice its still kind of dumb. Like you can get docker, but its faked by spawning a VM in the background to run the docker container on which sort of defeats the point.

    I've also watched MS basically flail around for 20 years trying to figure out why people are leaving their development platform in droves, so... I'm not hopeful.
    Why would I run docker on Windows though, hell even MSSQL 2017 runs natively on linux. Unless I need some specific ActiveDirectory shit or functionality tied to windows services (so .. legacy applications?) there is barely a reason not to just move to linux as the server operating system. And thats basically 90% of a distributed application anyway, right?

    IMO its just our clients, most of them are exclusively MS shops and thats all they know and want. Conservative German corporate landscape and equally conservative sales/management (on our side) is what annoys me.
    I find that the biggest hurdle towards linux server selling/using is a lack of linux experienced workers. From Development to Support and everything in between, there are way way more people who can (and will) click their way though byzantine windows management/application menues than learn how to type 5 simple commands into a unix terminal.
    You've actually discovered one of the good things about Docker. It lets you centralize your "unix guy" and have him work and do his thing pre-compile, so that you don't need to have 3 x unix guys for each shift of support. You have the one, and he works developer hours. His knowledge is encoded in the docker container, which is read-only, static, or at least only writes to mounted storage at run time, so if it works as an artifact (and this is where you need to trust your QA process), it works anytime you run it, and so all that work of doing unix the old way is removed and front loaded into the development process. No one types on the command line in production anymore. If something breaks, you preserve it for forensics and start another one in its place in the mean time to handle the load and that can be done without anyone having to wake up at 3am and log in. Hell, we wouldn't even log an error in that case.

    Production becomes more about managing the docker runtime, and this is where (imo), you get some unique cost benefits from cloud. You consume that as a service, whether its kubernetes-cluster-aaS with GCS or something as point and click (potentially) as ElasticBeanStalk running a docker container in a simpler load balanced web service type role. You saved a whole bunch of money by basically getting a system with monitoring, load balancing, some modicum of actual scalabiltiy and redundancy if you just follow a few simple guideline (that help you build easier software, anyway) all the way through to going serverless which makes the individual software module that much simpler to build and maintain as well. Even if you are running a kubernetes cluster on premise, its arguable its way easier and more scalable than VMWare, just note that it doesn't plug and play with a window corporate environment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dee Jiensai View Post
    This goes as far as the project I took over because it wasn't working right: Raspberry PI 'embedded' system, on which the developer had installed Mono and a complete IDE on each production machine to compile the binary in place because he could not figure out any other way of doing it.
    (as a sidenote, the feeling you get from seeing a *.exe file in a linux process tree...)



    It is incredibly hard for businesses to get linux/unix- experienced people, and even training your own workforce is a uphill battle.
    um, he couldn't even figure out RPM (or apt)? Yeah, docker is a way to solve this too. As software packaging, what it allows you to do, and maybe the right way to think about it is a docker container for each process in a system. There is a little overhead, but essentially your base OS is tiny, just the things it needs to be a docker host. Then each thing you load on there is a docker container, and this has the unique property of allowing you to fulfill dependencies on a component by component basis if need be. Your LDAP lib and your SMTP lib have different SSL version requirements? not a problem if each of those systems is encapsulated and integrated into the system as a discreet docker container, and you can then build a dependency tree this way, and go that way. See CoreOS for a pretty well executed version of this, Linux JeOS with just enough there to support the docker ecosystem. Even the CLI tools you use (if you do, as I said, we do during development only) are loaded onto the host in docker containers.

    CoreOS, The structure of eclipse Che, which is a multi language IDE written in Java, but that takes the form of a cluster of docker containers, each with a micro service in it and in totality, making up a desktop application served through a browser. These are probably good things to look at for examples and inspiration.
    meh

  15. #35
    Dee Jiensai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dee Jiensai View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrehl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Stop being an MS dev then.
    I really hate to say this, but he's right. MS "seem" to be getting more enlightened about open source and modern development and scaling methods. I personally though 2016 was a big step in the right direction, but in practice its still kind of dumb. Like you can get docker, but its faked by spawning a VM in the background to run the docker container on which sort of defeats the point.

    I've also watched MS basically flail around for 20 years trying to figure out why people are leaving their development platform in droves, so... I'm not hopeful.
    Why would I run docker on Windows though, hell even MSSQL 2017 runs natively on linux. Unless I need some specific ActiveDirectory shit or functionality tied to windows services (so .. legacy applications?) there is barely a reason not to just move to linux as the server operating system. And thats basically 90% of a distributed application anyway, right?

    IMO its just our clients, most of them are exclusively MS shops and thats all they know and want. Conservative German corporate landscape and equally conservative sales/management (on our side) is what annoys me.
    I find that the biggest hurdle towards linux server selling/using is a lack of linux experienced workers. From Development to Support and everything in between, there are way way more people who can (and will) click their way though byzantine windows management/application menues than learn how to type 5 simple commands into a unix terminal.
    You've actually discovered one of the good things about Docker. It lets you centralize your "unix guy" and have him work and do his thing pre-compile, so that you don't need to have 3 x unix guys for each shift of support. You have the one, and he works developer hours. His knowledge is encoded in the docker container, which is read-only, static, or at least only writes to mounted storage at run time, so if it works as an artifact (and this is where you need to trust your QA process), it works anytime you run it, and so all that work of doing unix the old way is removed and front loaded into the development process. No one types on the command line in production anymore. If something breaks, you preserve it for forensics and start another one in its place in the mean time to handle the load and that can be done without anyone having to wake up at 3am and log in. Hell, we wouldn't even log an error in that case.

    Production becomes more about managing the docker runtime, and this is where (imo), you get some unique cost benefits from cloud. You consume that as a service, whether its kubernetes-cluster-aaS with GCS or something as point and click (potentially) as ElasticBeanStalk running a docker container in a simpler load balanced web service type role. You saved a whole bunch of money by basically getting a system with monitoring, load balancing, some modicum of actual scalabiltiy and redundancy if you just follow a few simple guideline (that help you build easier software, anyway) all the way through to going serverless which makes the individual software module that much simpler to build and maintain as well. Even if you are running a kubernetes cluster on premise, its arguable its way easier and more scalable than VMWare, just note that it doesn't plug and play with a window corporate environment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dee Jiensai View Post
    This goes as far as the project I took over because it wasn't working right: Raspberry PI 'embedded' system, on which the developer had installed Mono and a complete IDE on each production machine to compile the binary in place because he could not figure out any other way of doing it.
    (as a sidenote, the feeling you get from seeing a *.exe file in a linux process tree...)



    It is incredibly hard for businesses to get linux/unix- experienced people, and even training your own workforce is a uphill battle.
    um, he couldn't even figure out RPM (or apt)? Yeah, docker is a way to solve this too. As software packaging, what it allows you to do, and maybe the right way to think about it is a docker container for each process in a system. There is a little overhead, but essentially your base OS is tiny, just the things it needs to be a docker host. Then each thing you load on there is a docker container, and this has the unique property of allowing you to fulfill dependencies on a component by component basis if need be. Your LDAP lib and your SMTP lib have different SSL version requirements? not a problem if each of those systems is encapsulated and integrated into the system as a discreet docker container, and you can then build a dependency tree this way, and go that way. See CoreOS for a pretty well executed version of this, Linux JeOS with just enough there to support the docker ecosystem. Even the CLI tools you use (if you do, as I said, we do during development only) are loaded onto the host in docker containers.

    CoreOS, The structure of eclipse Che, which is a multi language IDE written in Java, but that takes the form of a cluster of docker containers, each with a micro service in it and in totality, making up a desktop application served through a browser. These are probably good things to look at for examples and inspiration.
    Many words that seem quite helpful, thank you!
    I'll have a look at thing syou mentioned tomorow, during work hours

  16. #36
    Dee Jiensai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dee Jiensai View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrehl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by elmicker View Post
    Stop being an MS dev then.
    I really hate to say this, but he's right. MS "seem" to be getting more enlightened about open source and modern development and scaling methods. I personally though 2016 was a big step in the right direction, but in practice its still kind of dumb. Like you can get docker, but its faked by spawning a VM in the background to run the docker container on which sort of defeats the point.

    I've also watched MS basically flail around for 20 years trying to figure out why people are leaving their development platform in droves, so... I'm not hopeful.
    Why would I run docker on Windows though, hell even MSSQL 2017 runs natively on linux. Unless I need some specific ActiveDirectory shit or functionality tied to windows services (so .. legacy applications?) there is barely a reason not to just move to linux as the server operating system. And thats basically 90% of a distributed application anyway, right?

    IMO its just our clients, most of them are exclusively MS shops and thats all they know and want. Conservative German corporate landscape and equally conservative sales/management (on our side) is what annoys me.
    I find that the biggest hurdle towards linux server selling/using is a lack of linux experienced workers. From Development to Support and everything in between, there are way way more people who can (and will) click their way though byzantine windows management/application menues than learn how to type 5 simple commands into a unix terminal.
    You've actually discovered one of the good things about Docker. It lets you centralize your "unix guy" and have him work and do his thing pre-compile, so that you don't need to have 3 x unix guys for each shift of support. You have the one, and he works developer hours. His knowledge is encoded in the docker container, which is read-only, static, or at least only writes to mounted storage at run time, so if it works as an artifact (and this is where you need to trust your QA process), it works anytime you run it, and so all that work of doing unix the old way is removed and front loaded into the development process. No one types on the command line in production anymore. If something breaks, you preserve it for forensics and start another one in its place in the mean time to handle the load and that can be done without anyone having to wake up at 3am and log in. Hell, we wouldn't even log an error in that case.

    Production becomes more about managing the docker runtime, and this is where (imo), you get some unique cost benefits from cloud. You consume that as a service, whether its kubernetes-cluster-aaS with GCS or something as point and click (potentially) as ElasticBeanStalk running a docker container in a simpler load balanced web service type role. You saved a whole bunch of money by basically getting a system with monitoring, load balancing, some modicum of actual scalabiltiy and redundancy if you just follow a few simple guideline (that help you build easier software, anyway) all the way through to going serverless which makes the individual software module that much simpler to build and maintain as well. Even if you are running a kubernetes cluster on premise, its arguable its way easier and more scalable than VMWare, just note that it doesn't plug and play with a window corporate environment.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dee Jiensai View Post
    This goes as far as the project I took over because it wasn't working right: Raspberry PI 'embedded' system, on which the developer had installed Mono and a complete IDE on each production machine to compile the binary in place because he could not figure out any other way of doing it.
    (as a sidenote, the feeling you get from seeing a *.exe file in a linux process tree...)



    It is incredibly hard for businesses to get linux/unix- experienced people, and even training your own workforce is a uphill battle.
    um, he couldn't even figure out RPM (or apt)? Yeah, docker is a way to solve this too. As software packaging, what it allows you to do, and maybe the right way to think about it is a docker container for each process in a system. There is a little overhead, but essentially your base OS is tiny, just the things it needs to be a docker host. Then each thing you load on there is a docker container, and this has the unique property of allowing you to fulfill dependencies on a component by component basis if need be. Your LDAP lib and your SMTP lib have different SSL version requirements? not a problem if each of those systems is encapsulated and integrated into the system as a discreet docker container, and you can then build a dependency tree this way, and go that way. See CoreOS for a pretty well executed version of this, Linux JeOS with just enough there to support the docker ecosystem. Even the CLI tools you use (if you do, as I said, we do during development only) are loaded onto the host in docker containers.

    CoreOS, The structure of eclipse Che, which is a multi language IDE written in Java, but that takes the form of a cluster of docker containers, each with a micro service in it and in totality, making up a desktop application served through a browser. These are probably good things to look at for examples and inspiration.
    Many words that seem quite helpful, thank you!
    I'll have a look at thing syou mentioned tomorow, during work hours

  17. #37
    Donor Aea's Avatar
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    I may be viewing this through my own lens as s dev super comfortable with ‘nix but every senior I worked with was rather competent with it too. Not sure why sysmins would have such a huge skill gap


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  18. #38
    Lana Torrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post
    I may be viewing this through my own lens as s dev super comfortable with ‘nix but every senior I worked with was rather competent with it too. Not sure why sysmins would have such a huge skill gap


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Because we don't do software support as a rule?

    Also I'm an angry admin at the moment so please take anything I say in that context.
    Quote Originally Posted by lubica
    And her name was Limul Azgoden, a lowly peasant girl.

  19. #39
    Dee Jiensai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aea View Post
    I may be viewing this through my own lens as s dev super comfortable with ‘nix but every senior I worked with was rather competent with it too. Not sure why sysmins would have such a huge skill gap


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I think it's purely psycological.

    Many of our support and admin staff have used windows (or for some years, web browsers) exclusively to do their job.
    This means input is mouse, and some text fields, drop down menus, checkboxes etc.

    If you put them in front of a black window with a blinking thing, they are as far out of their "element" (comfort zone) as you can get.
    It's not that they are too stupid, or too lazy to learn, its just that they are lost, and *think* they don't know shit.

    Gather around kids, its story time:
    Many many years ago, I was doing a summer job in an IT department of a big company.
    This was when PCs were just starting to become graphical devices, and Unix terminals (as in hardware on your desk) were still used, but being replaced with a windows PC and terminal emulator software.
    I got a support call from the finance department that their "computer was not working" and after spending 10 minutes on the phone, it was clear, that I had to walk over there to help. (10-15 on foot, yes big company/factory)

    The problem with the phone was that the person on the other end had spent the last 15 years working with Unix terminals, and now had a windows 3.1 PC.
    We were basically unable to communicate, because he did not have the language and understanding of his new machine, to even tell me what was wrong.

    So, after I arrive, I look at the screen, and click on the title bar of the terminal emulator window to see what was wrong, because it was obscured by some other window.

    "Oh, you fixed it! Thank you!"

    Yes, that was all that was wrong. he was unable to recognize the problem, because he did not recognize the concept of 'windows" (not the os, the representation of programs) because he was working his whole life in fullscreen textmode.

    Back to now:
    This applied to the situation, because its almost the same thing only from the other side.

    I have no doubt, that guy from above could have solved his problem himself easily, if he had not been afraid of breaking something in this UI which was completely foreign to him.

    Same with out support/system engineers.
    They think they will break stuff, and are afraid to touch it, because they have no idea whatsoever about how it works.

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrehl View Post
    I am very interested in docker, kubernetes and building applications that leverage the advantages of containers. You know, cloud® architecture and all. But since im a MS dev it feels like im swimming against the current. With dotnet core we can build the very same applications one could build in any other language, plop them in a linux container and build all the cool stuff people have been raving about the last couple of years.
    That'll change in the (near) future, I guess, as MS is integrating Docker into Windows Server: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/vir...windows-server

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