As someone with no experience in massive supercap fleets, it just strikes me as incredibly bad mechanics that there are fights with 80 supercaps on one side and 30 on the other, and only 1 on each side dies while dreads/carriers/BS/BC die by the bushel.
(I don't care who wins, I just want more supers to die)
From what I gather, the titans mostly got killed mostly because of mishaps. The Raiden. titan got bumped on jump-in I believe and ended up 130km away from the main superfleet, meaning he couldn't get reps. The Goon titan got bumped out of a tower (or ejected because of a password reset) and got killed without support. There was also some clever play involved by Goons on their cyno-in. They cyno'd suicide dreads first, so that they caught all the doomsdays from the Raiden. titans, only to cyno in their own supers in after. Soon after the Raiden. titan died, Goon supers got successfully extracted from the battlefield. All in all, I think it should be a clear sign that in somewhat more even supercap slug outs, killing a super isn't so easy.Originally Posted by Celedris
What's interesting is that TiDi also changes how battles like these work. Previously, people wanted their (super)caps in system so they had a better chance to load safely, instead of having to cyno in. Now it seems that the Goon supers that were already in 92D didn't manage to get into the battle because when they logged in, TiDi had already kicked in, making the time for coming out of e-warp to the spot the logged off at (a safe tower) and aligning to the battle so slow that the Raiden. titan died before they were ready to warp in, so cynoing in seems to become a more efficient option for deploying caps.
Another side effect of TiDi is also that with everything slowed down, in absolute time, it takes much, much longer to recharge cap to a level where you can jump out again. This may also have lead to the Goon titan kill, because it wasn't able to cyno out due to low cap. Two other Goon titans also bumped out of the pos were reported to only make it out while in structure (which makes me wonder wtf the Raiden. + friends bubblers were doing).
- don't confuse the fact that I like to be right with the rumors that I actually might be -
EVE: retired
WoT (EU, DaDutchDude):
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Repost of a battle report of the battle in 92D of yesterday originally posted by a Raiden. pilot on kugu:
So far today, there were 2 CFC Tech POSses coming out of reinforced, and they were destroyed in very little time by a big Raiden. / titan heavy fleet with no defense by the CFC. One of the Tech moons is supposedly gifted to Init. as reward for their help, and the other one taken by Raiden. Here's one tower KM and a picture of the fleet:Quote Originally Posted by Klasper View Post
Very fun and tense fight going down in 92D tonight. This is a report seen from my point of view, as a titan and triage carrier pilot.
We (Raiden.) formed up at 1700 Eve Time to defend two Technetium POSes which was coming out of reinforcement. Titans, Super Carriers, Abaddon fleets and triage carriers were formed. We set up on the first tower (can't remember the system) without any resistance, but with hundreds of CFC forming and travelling. All eyes set on the second tower in 92D.
We jumped into 92D with our titans, and a single titan got bumped far off (~120km); Huntet Lifeform. CFC were swift and deliberate to spring their trap on Huntet Lifeform, tackling it and opening a cyno, and in poured 50 (?) dreadnoughts. Our titans got dreadnought targets assigned for DD, which many survived (at least the one I was firing at). After the first DD volley CFC escalated with several of their own super capitals.
Titans were ordered to change targets to sub-capitals, letting our Super Carriers work on the remaining dreadnoughts. During the fighting the triage carriers were ordered to triage and repair the tower, securing the POS (and possibly a safe haven for the rest of our titans, given we would lose the battle). CFC managed to bring a second Erebus to around 50% armor, but our armor triage carriers and super carriers managed to keep it alive long enough so it could jump to safety. Additional super capitals and support ships were brought in during the whole fight.
After the fight at the Raiden. POS, we were told to align to the CFC POS, where a CFC ragnarok was outside shield (named Bad Poison, or something). It unfortunately managed to get back inside shield before it died, and a fight against the CFC sub-cap fleet was back on, now at the enemy POS, and again alot of our titans got bumped far off, but was ordered to jump out, recharged and get back in system. During the fighting a CFC Leviathan, Batlovod, got bumped out, whether it was by PL or the CFC Phoenix that logged back in who was the culprit/hero here, I can't say, but never the less it resulted in a very dead leviathan.
The end result of the battle was above all a very intense and fun night!
Ps. Kudos to Huntet Lifeform to come back in an Abbaddon after he lost his Erebus :P
- http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&k...217918&nolimit
- http://i.imgur.com/gD5WX.jpg
Supposedly though, CFC is currently forming up and there might be some more action tonight.
Edit: Meh, looks like nothing happened but a lot of blue balls and propaganda / trolling about who is blobbing who and how titans are or aren't broken, etc.
Last edited by DaDutchDude; January 23 2012 at 01:54:28 AM.
- don't confuse the fact that I like to be right with the rumors that I actually might be -
EVE: retired
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Who needs tracking fits when Goons handily align their fleets directly away from your Titans? :PNCdot getting off the sidelines and picking a side? Interesting
Also *lol* tracking Titans!
sounds like fun for both sides, although how is the lagg for both sides, is it even? or is one side taking more lag then the other
From what I heard, TiDi was doing amazing work. There are still some teething problems with how TiDi switches on and off I believe, but just the fact that people were able to cyno into system, load and participate without trouble is a HUGE deal. Both sides were pretty happy with it, and also acknowledge that TiDi actually has potentially big influence on viability of tactics and fleet compositions that they need to learn about and work out.
- don't confuse the fact that I like to be right with the rumors that I actually might be -
EVE: retired
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Very much this. Also Init and Evoke took the two moons on sunday. Btw, Sunday night blue balls are werst.TiDi was doing amazing work
Another big night coming up tomorrow... We'll see
Couple of fights last night.
INIT had a tower coming out at ~23:00 that goons wanted to hit, and we'd also hit a SpaceMonkey's tower that was due to come out at about the same time.
We bridged in to system before goons with a ~100 man Tengu fleet, backed up by INIT Drakes + Bombers, NCdot Drakes and ev0ke Bombers. PL also sent a Ti3 BC gang to snipe some kills. We numbered around 300 in total. Goons were bringing roughly the same in 2 seperate Alpha Fleets.
Goons entered the system by gate and were bombed by INIT. They bounced off a celestial and warped to the POS that was due out of reinforced. Round 1 saw us warp to one of the Alpha fleets in our Tengus, whilst the Drakes engaged the other fleet. One fleet immediately fled the field only to come back in at exactly the same location a minute later. Round 1 saw us lose 3 ships (plus a covert and dictor), so we assumed Goons were primarying the Drakes. Looking back at the killboard, I can't see any Drake losses, so I have no idea what they were doing.
INIT and ev0ke both pulled off some very good bombing runs, killing multiple hostile battleships.
Bubbling also worked very well, keeping goons on the field long after they wanted to flee.
End KB BR looks a bit sketchy as a lot of goons aren't showing up as it appears they didn't kill anything:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&...ll_id=12243057
http://dog-net.org/brdoc/?brid=3735
---------
As soon as round 1 was over and the goons moved off the field, we brought in some dreads to finish off the Spacemonkeys tech moon and started anchoring our own. Meanwhile, we repped the INIT pos and restronted.
Goons pinged 3 times in 30 minutes to reform and bring in reinforcements, but still couldn't get over ~300 people (this was midnight Eve Time). They decided to try and be sneaky and drop on our dreads in B-G. Dreads jumped before Goons could land, and we relocated to behind the goons, cutting off their escape. Goons formed up 35km off their gate and waited for us to jump in to them (in their prime time, we were all tired and wanted to sleep).
We decided to take the fight anyway, so jumped in to system. We lost 4 Tengu's in the initial decloak, but Goons appeared to not have any Webs left. As such we sat on top of their BS group for 15 minutes in our Tengus, taking apart their fleet whilst taking no damage in return. Turkey shoot.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&...ll_id=12244024
http://dog-net.org/brdoc/?brid=3733
All in all, system had 700 in when the first fight went down (unreinforced iirc) and there was next to no lag. TiDi really appears to be working wonders for big fleet fights.
That is awesome news, esp. with what might come. This means one less excuse not to fight and / or one more reason to join the fight.
DISCLAIMER: If you recently took a Wall of Text to the knee and are kinda worried of a repeat injury, look away now!
EVENEWS24.com has a piece by Endie, Goon's Minister of Propaganda, which is nothing more or less then a cry to rally the troops in what might be a fight for survival. Since it's pretty big, I'll post the link rather then repost it: http://www.evenews24.com/2012/01/26/...extermination/. So now things get interesting.
To be honest, I have no first hand information on any of this. All that is known to me is known from public sources such as FHC, Kugu, some public in-game channels and knowing the history of EVE. Still, I'll drop in my personal analysis of what's about to come, and what might be turning points.
I think Goons and CFC are peaking. Their power, influence and income has never been as large as it is now, and esp. their organizational and diplomatic abilities are on a level I don't think any alliance or coalition have reached even by a long shot. However, the tide is turning on them. I think that as with many other coalitions before it, the CFC has ruffled enough feathers that it is running out of people that want to join it and out of space / moons it can feasibly control. When an organization is at its top, when people are running at peak performance, it is easy to get tempers flare, have jealousy rear its ugly head, get bruised egos and personalities clashing. In the pressure cooker, things can go wrong very fast.
Now when I say people don't want to join it, I don't mean there's literally no people that want to join. What I mean is that the people that do want to join won't necessarily make them more powerful or effective. The more alliances join the CFC, the more chance there is or internal struggles, several of which we've already witnessed. Same can be said for corps joining existing CFC alliances. And corps usually also have a critical mass that is limited, where growing beyond it becomes problematic. And with that come people leaving the game that need to be replaced or people burning out, esp. key people doing all the hard behind the scenes work. Goons so far seem very good at keeping these key people going within their own organization, but again, there are natural human limits to what you can do.
At the same time, the CFC seems to get a rise out of people more then before. More and more people start to resent them and their success. Sure, Goons have thrived on exactly creating this, however, the longer you keep at it, the deeper the resentment grows and the deeper people will go to settle a score on something that happened perhaps even 3 years ago. At the same time, Goons have gone from a bunch of people enjoying being douche bags to a professionally run serious business organization that role plays being douche bags, and a lot of people who used to love the old Goon antics are now resenting the fact that Goons have lost a large part or their original raison d'etre.
At the same time, this by no means that Goons are finished, not by a long shot. As Endie wrote in his piece, there is a rich tradition of "destroy the Goons" campaigns that have all ended in embarrassing defeats. The only successful attempt at destroying Goons has been ironically done by a Goon by disbanding the alliance. At initial glance, the current challengers are at risk of making the same mistakes.
The current group that might try to put an end to the success of Goons empire of CFC seems to be initiated by Raiden. which consists of mostly of old IT / BoB alliance members, and they are joined by NCdot, Ev0ke/ Ewoks, Init. / Init. Mercs, and PL has also shown a presence. One thing that is a clear factor in many of these groups is that they like to project power by brute military force, and most of their military abilities are indeed impressive. However, they are also groups that all have very much an 'alpha male' attitude: they want to be dominant, in charge, and expect others to follow their directions, and the personalities in leadership positions also have very much the personalities and egos to match. This causes huge problems in terms of working together, esp. when shit hits the fan. And on a long campaign, shit will eventually hit the fan and be flung around, and it remains a question of who remains and who runs for cover.
Another problem is the nature of most of the successful campaigns these alliances have waged. With the exception of PL, most of their wars were fought based on displaying an impressive military force, winning one or two very large battles and having their opponent defeated by the opponent crumbling from that defeat. Most of their unsuccessful campaigns were long, drawn out fights where their opponents managed to not allow a knock-out blow in the first couple of rounds, only for the opponent to able to take advantage of a dropped guard during a sloppy attack.
Lastly, some of the opponents of the CFC are possibly at risk of fighting the war and mobilizing the troops for the wrong reasons. Too often, the spoils of the war are already carved up and divided amongst corps and alliances before victory is accomplished, leading to greed and jealousy. When things go wrong, this will become a huge obstacle to participation and morale. "What's in it for me?" should only be answered, not just to grunts but also amongst leadership, with: "To crushyour enemiesGoons, see them drivenbefore youfrom their regions and moons, and to hear the lamentation of theirwomenpets." Anything short of that will only be a source of division to be exploited by your opponents.
This war, just as others, will be all about participation. However, the opponent is unlike most others. The CFC is more unified and well organized and will not go down easily. Where in many coalitions, the "head" alliance will abandon their "pets" when things get tough, Goons have so far stood by their CFC steadfast. Key to not dragging this war out in an endless war of timers and structure grinding will be breaking up this bond, and it will not be easy. Anything should be done to stop the non-Goons from showing up in numbers or for the Goons to show up to defend non-Goon assets.
Personally, I think FCON should be the obvious target. It is clear neither Goons nor other CFC members have much love for them, and they already ran from a stable coalition with CVA before. Single them out, obliterate them, set their lands on fire, take their moons, destroy all their ships before even touching a Goon ship, camp their jump bridges and logistics routes, mess up their markets, war dec them and hunt targets in high sec, cause descent amongst their ranks. Do anything you can and the first cracks will appear. How long will Goons and the rest keep showing up? Will Goons help FCON financially when their ship refund program has run dry? Will FCON keep showing up for fleets when they know they will be singled out? How long will it take this time before they run?
All during this, no "single deciding battle, all in, go deep and hooah!" should be waged. Goons should be given no reason to mass X up, no reason to get reinvigorated when tired and weary, no reason to give a fuck about internet space ships. Actually, they should be given reason to go out in RL, enjoy spring, chase / drool after girls in high school / college / the office, go to the park and enjoy life while you slowly, in little and seemingly unimportant chunks chip away at their empire. Edit 2: Actually, part of that should be denying there is an intention to "destroy Goons", something that is already happening in other places and might happen here shortly. Only when most of their empire is already gone should they take notice, and only to consider evacuating assets, finding new space to bot in, etc.
So can the current forces defeat CFC? Yes, they have plenty of money, military power, numbers and abilities to win. Will they however? To be honest, I have my doubts. The lack of ego mixed with blind determination that is required to wage this long campaign as delicately as is required might stretch them too much. We'll see how this pans out, but I'm F5ing the kill boards / threads and hoping for a lot of destruction.
Last edited by DaDutchDude; January 26 2012 at 07:22:34 PM. Reason: WoT disclaimer
- don't confuse the fact that I like to be right with the rumors that I actually might be -
EVE: retired
WoT (EU, DaDutchDude):
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I don't think you "get" goons
Is this one of those vague messianic statements that, whatever the outcome is, can point back to and say "see I told you"? I'll give you some examples:
- Goons get defeated and kicked out of space: "Haha we didn't want space anyway!"
- Goons win and defeat opposition: "Haha told you we're better then those supercap blobs!"
- Nothing really happens: "Haha those pubbies don't dare fight us" or "Haha that piece by Endie was just trolling people into believing we are worried"
Instead, you could attempt to enlighten us, explain the nature of the Goon, give us insight so we might "get" Goons by being detailed and descriptive about what Goons intend to do, in a matter that in looking back, we can call bullshit on if it doesn't pan out, or congratulate you on if you were indeed correct. Until you do that, your post is about as informative on what is going on as posting "Fo fo fo fo fo".
- don't confuse the fact that I like to be right with the rumors that I actually might be -
EVE: retired
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Goons have group cohesion that is not defined entirely by Eve. They won't fail cascade under pressure; they go afk due to boredom. That's why Mittens and Endie have been meticulously crafting excursions such as goonswarm shrugged, and emphasise jabber as a method of getting goons to login when important shit goes down.
Contract stuff to Seraphina Amaranth.
"You give me the awful impression - I hate to have to say - of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position. Ever."
Oh yeah, I get that. In my post, I'm actually making a big deal about the level of cohesion and organization of Goons. One thing I didn't mention is that I'm not expecting Goons to go the way of the Dodo as other alliances have: as long as the EVE servers will be running, there will be Goons, I'm pretty sure of that. As much as my first post may not have explicitly stated that, it does (or should) imply it.
However, CFC is not made of Goons alone, and without CFC, it wouldn't be possible for Goons to be as influential / powerful / rich as they are now. Many an alliance in the CFC doesn't have that sense identity, that loyalty, and would not be able to stand alone, at least not the way they are now. The exception to this rule is of course TEST, but it remains a matter of debate how happy they are being subservient to a "master", no matter how subtle and well greased the wheels of diplomacy might turn. And in its current shape, Goons are much more like a "traditional" power house alliance with its own pets then it ever was before, and its coalition can be broken as many coalitions were broken before.
I will accept that there's certain aspects of Goons that I don't understand simply because I am not a part of it, but some Goons might have enough self-reflection to see that indeed the Goonswarm of 2012 is in some ways quite different from the Goonswarm of 2007 and in a number of ways more like the BoB of 2007 (I do not mean that as an insult BTW, even though you might take it that way). And even if you are not seeing it yourself, the rest of EVE is noticing.
Last edited by DaDutchDude; January 27 2012 at 04:33:46 AM.
- don't confuse the fact that I like to be right with the rumors that I actually might be -
EVE: retired
WoT (EU, DaDutchDude):
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I see your point; I also think that GSF's policy of kicking underperforming corps might be extended towards its allies if rot sets in. i think the CFC, not unlike hedge funds, prefers to be smaller, more agile and meaner than it currently is.
Contract stuff to Seraphina Amaranth.
"You give me the awful impression - I hate to have to say - of someone who hasn't read any of the arguments against your position. Ever."
Yeah man, what I meant was more like "oh wow how can this happen", not aimed at you.never underestimate the power of human stupidity? Anyway all I was doing was paraphrasing his dumb ass, and you should thank me for not simply quoting his mind bendingly bad grammar.lol good luck with that
I mean EVE pubbies are stupid as hell but this is a pants-on-head level of being fucking stupid
Who lives in Deklein now by the way?
goons.
What an awesome fight went down in 0P9Z-I; local at 1800 + ; half Rdn, init and pl, other half Goons + friends: Rdn killed the tower that came out of RF, then goons came in and fight went on for hours; br here:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=12405721
http://dog-net.org/brdoc/?brid=4346
Last edited by Grarr Dexx; February 11 2012 at 12:36:56 PM.
For the last 4-5 days a pair of IM corps have been camping around BKG. I understand goons are quite mad about all of this and have even re-routed the JBs as a result. Sadly I don't know the full scope of our impact on them aside from our little campaign we've created on our KB. I have to say tho, this is some of the most I've had in EVE ever.
Campaign overview shows:
269Kills (21+ Billion)
14losses (0.67 billion)
campaign details shows vastly different numbers:
http://thorn.killmail.org/?a=cc_detail&ctr_id=16651
gg karb.
Not really a BR but still funny as shit... 3 of us went on a roam in Deklein, and pick up a dead end system with many npc kills, we come in and the ingate is bubbled to hell, warp to random belt and then i see this:
we can't kill it since we don't have the dps and goons in local don't believe us we found an officer(even after we provide ss and logs of damage), after fail attempts to sell kaikka spawn we leave a cloaking m8 in the system and after 30 minutes the officer disappears...
Just a quick BR about a standard carrier gank that turned into something of a Matryoshka doll situation.
One of our guys (Gibbo) gets the ball rolling by tackling a Thanny which pops a cyno once it hits low armor. Instead of the backup blob we are expecting, a single Thanny jumps into our gang w/ sabre bubble already up. We finish off the first Thanny before reps land and proceed to melt the second one. We are fairly amused at this point.
The second Thanny incredibly opens a cyno of his own and a Chimera appears. However it too cannot land its hero reps in time and Thanny #2 goes down.
At this point something miraculous occurrs; the Chimera drops yet another cyno and two more Thannys (3 & 4) jump in. This time they appear to be more coordinated and begin refitting specific armor hardeners to tank the blaster damage of our pure Talos gang.
Thus begins a 45 minute brawl where neither side is able do much other than pop endless amounts of drones.
Over the course of the standoff however we are reinforced with a steady trickle of alliance mates eager to get in on the action. A Rook with full gallente jammers manages to jam out one of the Thannys just long enough for us to down Thanny #3 (we ignored the Chimmy up until this point because it had managed to refit in structure to full therm/kin and was just bait tanking us in armor).
With three carriers down and only two remaining we're fairly confident the fight is won. Yet right on schedule a cyno goes up and in come the final wave of reinforcements: a Niddy, Archon and another Thanny, bringing the amount of capital RR on field to something ridiculous and unbreakable with our limited numbers.
Amusement turns to dread and we understand we have no choice but to either drop capitals of our own (which is a fairly difficult task due to wormhole mass) or call for reinforcements, as we are slowly bleeding Tier 3's to the swarm of sentry drones.
Thankfully our pleas don't go unnoticed in the AHARM pub channel and someone manages to get us in touch with Elo Knight and his legion. We pop our own cyno for a change and let BL. do their thing.
Overall an incredibly fun brawl with some clever spider tanking carriers abusing the fact that our beloved blaster boats are limited to therm/kin damage.
gf. http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kil...d&kll_id=13671
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