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Thread: God Hates THE WORLD (Natural Disaster Thread)

  1. #1361
    Movember 2011 RazoR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totally Not Larkonnis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    i don't think fhc posters creating many babies is something we need to worry about
    Speak for youself...
    yeah and look where it got you
    sorry

  2. #1362
    Duckslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RazoR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Totally Not Larkonnis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by teds :D View Post
    i don't think fhc posters creating many babies is something we need to worry about
    Speak for youself...
    yeah and look where it got you
    sorry

  3. #1363
    Keckers's Avatar
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    fathersforjusticeheap challenge
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  4. #1364
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    this popped up on my jutjubz today, damn haxxorz know we're talking about this shit

    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  5. #1365
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    Shellenberger is the guy who was caught up in the weird South Korean nuclear power stuff that happened a few years ago right? Where they tried to cover up dangerous saftey events at some plants and then ran a smear campaign against greenpeace after they got exposed?

    A friend of mine doing a phd in some energy related stuff said they guy was a bit of a zealous nutter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  6. #1366
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    i have no idea who the dude is tbh, but an interesting tidbit of info right there
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  7. #1367
    Liare's Avatar
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    he's describing precisely nothing we're not addressing already, and the whole "OH NOES BIRDS DIE TO WIND TURBINES" is and remains a red herring. indeed the origin of that claim seems to be Robert Bryce, who is for all intents and purposes bought and paid for by Exxon Mobile and Charles Koch. need i point out why taking the concerns of those two seriously on this, and many other subjects is the hallmark of a utter moron ?

    the discussion about environmental impact, while relevant is done with no context, what's the damage from establishing gas/coal plants overall ? how about a comparison between nuclear and renewables in term of square footage used and where it's used ?
    Germany, world leader, Germany who is opening brown coal power plants ? 13% Germany ? this guy should try comedy.

    the problem here, and the problem most people jump straight into is the base assumption that we can continue as if nothing is happening. we can't, it's not going to happen, we're going to need to drastically change energy and resource consumption and usage patterns in the west in order to attain any sort of long term viability.

    nuclear power has a place, so does renewable sources, mindlessly advocating nuclear power at the expense of renewables is dumb, so is the inverse, any sort of zero carbon energy grid is going to include significant chunks of both along with Hydro, Geothermal power (it's a fucking crime we're not spending more resources on exploring geothermal by the way) and, if it ever gets out of the fucking lab, wave power. (the problem being A : it's not terribly effective and B : making this shit actually survive autumn storms in the north sea has proved to be a lot more challenging than expected)

    and all of this comes with the added rider that consumption as a whole has got to come down mid-term so that we can get rid of the fossil fuel dependent technologies and sectors as fast as possible, and yes that includes chopping up air travel and taking a good hard look at consumption patterns as a whole, maybe moving plastic doodads from the one side of the planet to the other in order to have disposable forks and knives is a fucking crime against humanity rather than something we just "do".
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  8. #1368
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    he's describing precisely nothing we're not addressing already, and the whole "OH NOES BIRDS DIE TO WIND TURBINES" is and remains a red herring. indeed the origin of that claim seems to be Robert Bryce, who is for all intents and purposes bought and paid for by Exxon Mobile and Charles Koch. need i point out why taking the concerns of those two seriously on this, and many other subjects is the hallmark of a utter moron ?

    the discussion about environmental impact, while relevant is done with no context, what's the damage from establishing gas/coal plants overall ? how about a comparison between nuclear and renewables in term of square footage used and where it's used ?
    Germany, world leader, Germany who is opening brown coal power plants ? 13% Germany ? this guy should try comedy.

    the problem here, and the problem most people jump straight into is the base assumption that we can continue as if nothing is happening. we can't, it's not going to happen, we're going to need to drastically change energy and resource consumption and usage patterns in the west in order to attain any sort of long term viability.

    nuclear power has a place, so does renewable sources, mindlessly advocating nuclear power at the expense of renewables is dumb, so is the inverse, any sort of zero carbon energy grid is going to include significant chunks of both along with Hydro, Geothermal power (it's a fucking crime we're not spending more resources on exploring geothermal by the way) and, if it ever gets out of the fucking lab, wave power. (the problem being A : it's not terribly effective and B : making this shit actually survive autumn storms in the north sea has proved to be a lot more challenging than expected)

    and all of this comes with the added rider that consumption as a whole has got to come down mid-term so that we can get rid of the fossil fuel dependent technologies and sectors as fast as possible, and yes that includes chopping up air travel and taking a good hard look at consumption patterns as a whole, maybe moving plastic doodads from the one side of the planet to the other in order to have disposable forks and knives is a fucking crime against humanity rather than something we just "do".
    Without tipping over the abyss into climate zealotry one way or the other, you can't just hand wave away the impact to migratory birds either. That dude you posted has an agenda to sell his book too. If it's not a problem, why are we developing solutions to it?
    meh

  9. #1369
    Liare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    he's describing precisely nothing we're not addressing already, and the whole "OH NOES BIRDS DIE TO WIND TURBINES" is and remains a red herring. indeed the origin of that claim seems to be Robert Bryce, who is for all intents and purposes bought and paid for by Exxon Mobile and Charles Koch. need i point out why taking the concerns of those two seriously on this, and many other subjects is the hallmark of a utter moron ?

    the discussion about environmental impact, while relevant is done with no context, what's the damage from establishing gas/coal plants overall ? how about a comparison between nuclear and renewables in term of square footage used and where it's used ?
    Germany, world leader, Germany who is opening brown coal power plants ? 13% Germany ? this guy should try comedy.

    the problem here, and the problem most people jump straight into is the base assumption that we can continue as if nothing is happening. we can't, it's not going to happen, we're going to need to drastically change energy and resource consumption and usage patterns in the west in order to attain any sort of long term viability.

    nuclear power has a place, so does renewable sources, mindlessly advocating nuclear power at the expense of renewables is dumb, so is the inverse, any sort of zero carbon energy grid is going to include significant chunks of both along with Hydro, Geothermal power (it's a fucking crime we're not spending more resources on exploring geothermal by the way) and, if it ever gets out of the fucking lab, wave power. (the problem being A : it's not terribly effective and B : making this shit actually survive autumn storms in the north sea has proved to be a lot more challenging than expected)

    and all of this comes with the added rider that consumption as a whole has got to come down mid-term so that we can get rid of the fossil fuel dependent technologies and sectors as fast as possible, and yes that includes chopping up air travel and taking a good hard look at consumption patterns as a whole, maybe moving plastic doodads from the one side of the planet to the other in order to have disposable forks and knives is a fucking crime against humanity rather than something we just "do".
    Without tipping over the abyss into climate zealotry one way or the other, you can't just hand wave away the impact to migratory birds either. That dude you posted has an agenda to sell his book too. If it's not a problem, why are we developing solutions to it?
    i called it a red herring because that's precisely what it is, it's something to distract people from the actual discussion.

    so let's have some choice qoutes from the first article.

    wind farms and nuclear power stations are responsible each for between 0.3 and 0.4 fatalities per gigawatt-hour (GWh) of electricity while fossil-fuelled power stations are responsible for about 5.2 fatalities per GWh.
    so coal and gas are actually way deadlier per GWh installed, but nobody is talking about not building coal plants because they kill the poor birdies are they ?

    wind farms killed approximately seven thousand birds in the United States in 2006 but nuclear plants killed about 327,000 and fossil-fuelled power plants 14.5 million.
    the same figure, but wait, let's have a snippit from the table futher down for comparison.

    Buildings (low, mid & high rise) 1,317,130
    in other words, more birds die from flying straight into buildings and breaking their necks, than die at the hands of the terrifying wind-turbine-murder-machines, do you per-chance want to outlaw glass towers ? after all banging head first into those and breaking their necks is how birds usually end up dead on buildings.

    Cats (domestic) 54,880,000
    or how about the common domesticated cat perhaps ? should we exterminate those to save the birdies ?

    problems have such a thing as scale, and it's a relevant thing to consider, what is also relevant to consider is that it's possible to avoid a lot of these bird-fatalities with A : clever windmill placement and B : painting the wings in high risk areas a dark color so the damn things can see them properly against the sky, and especially C : it's not actually a big problem in the first place.

    as for that project you linked, it's a toy, pure and simple, it's got some interesting ideas but it's still just a 2 kW mill with 35 feet wings ? the smallest regular turbine on the market right now is twice the size at 27 meter wings and produces 275 kW rated with the big-boys, like the V150 and V162 producing 5.6 MW rated, vertical designs have generally been avoided because they are lagging in terms of efficiency and because their lower placement in relation to the ground means they're more susceptible to terrain induced performance losses (wind-speed loss close to the ground is a thing), they've got their place but the ones that are actually in any way shape or form serious look like this.



    and are commonly used for smaller applications or areas with rapidly changing wind patterns, a couple of sea-bouys have been tested with those things on top successfully, though i don't know if it's something that is going to go into general use.
    Last edited by Liare; March 14 2019 at 09:19:28 PM.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  10. #1370
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    he's describing precisely nothing we're not addressing already, and the whole "OH NOES BIRDS DIE TO WIND TURBINES" is and remains a red herring. indeed the origin of that claim seems to be Robert Bryce, who is for all intents and purposes bought and paid for by Exxon Mobile and Charles Koch. need i point out why taking the concerns of those two seriously on this, and many other subjects is the hallmark of a utter moron ?

    the discussion about environmental impact, while relevant is done with no context, what's the damage from establishing gas/coal plants overall ? how about a comparison between nuclear and renewables in term of square footage used and where it's used ?
    Germany, world leader, Germany who is opening brown coal power plants ? 13% Germany ? this guy should try comedy.

    the problem here, and the problem most people jump straight into is the base assumption that we can continue as if nothing is happening. we can't, it's not going to happen, we're going to need to drastically change energy and resource consumption and usage patterns in the west in order to attain any sort of long term viability.

    nuclear power has a place, so does renewable sources, mindlessly advocating nuclear power at the expense of renewables is dumb, so is the inverse, any sort of zero carbon energy grid is going to include significant chunks of both along with Hydro, Geothermal power (it's a fucking crime we're not spending more resources on exploring geothermal by the way) and, if it ever gets out of the fucking lab, wave power. (the problem being A : it's not terribly effective and B : making this shit actually survive autumn storms in the north sea has proved to be a lot more challenging than expected)

    and all of this comes with the added rider that consumption as a whole has got to come down mid-term so that we can get rid of the fossil fuel dependent technologies and sectors as fast as possible, and yes that includes chopping up air travel and taking a good hard look at consumption patterns as a whole, maybe moving plastic doodads from the one side of the planet to the other in order to have disposable forks and knives is a fucking crime against humanity rather than something we just "do".
    Without tipping over the abyss into climate zealotry one way or the other, you can't just hand wave away the impact to migratory birds either. That dude you posted has an agenda to sell his book too. If it's not a problem, why are we developing solutions to it?
    i called it a red herring because that's precisely what it is, it's something to distract people from the actual discussion.

    so let's have some choice qoutes from the first article.

    wind farms and nuclear power stations are responsible each for between 0.3 and 0.4 fatalities per gigawatt-hour (GWh) of electricity while fossil-fuelled power stations are responsible for about 5.2 fatalities per GWh.
    so coal and gas are actually way deadlier per GWh installed, but nobody is talking about not building coal plants because they kill the poor birdies are they ?

    wind farms killed approximately seven thousand birds in the United States in 2006 but nuclear plants killed about 327,000 and fossil-fuelled power plants 14.5 million.
    the same figure, but wait, let's have a snippit from the table futher down for comparison.

    Buildings (low, mid & high rise) 1,317,130
    in other words, more birds die from flying straight into buildings and breaking their necks, than die at the hands of the terrifying wind-turbine-murder-machines, do you per-chance want to outlaw glass towers ? after all banging head first into those and breaking their necks is how birds usually end up dead on buildings.

    Cats (domestic) 54,880,000
    or how about the common domesticated cat perhaps ? should we exterminate those to save the birdies ?

    problems have such a thing as scale, and it's a relevant thing to consider, what is also relevant to consider is that it's possible to avoid a lot of these bird-fatalities with A : clever windmill placement and B : painting the wings in high risk areas a dark color so the damn things can see them properly against the sky, and especially C : it's not actually a big problem in the first place.

    as for that project you linked, it's a toy, pure and simple, it's got some interesting ideas but it's still just a 2 kW mill with 35 feet wings ? the smallest regular turbine on the market right now is twice the size at 27 meter wings and produces 275 kW rated with the big-boys, like the V150 and V162 producing 5.6 MW rated, vertical designs have generally been avoided because they are lagging in terms of efficiency and because their lower placement in relation to the ground means they're more susceptible to terrain induced performance losses (wind-speed loss close to the ground is a thing), they've got their place but the ones that are actually in any way shape or form serious look like this.



    and are commonly used for smaller applications or areas with rapidly changing wind patterns, a couple of sea-bouys have been tested with those things on top successfully, though i don't know if it's something that is going to go into general use.

    Your main problem is clever windmill placement. Migratory birds like wind, at least that is the current results of the analysis here. No one is saying its an unsolvable problem, just that it is a problem. We aren't exactly building any coal plants in California now, are we?

    Just because cats kill more, we should ignore the problem. That's as retarded as saying banning guns won't stop criminals so we should just not do anything.
    meh

  11. #1371
    Liare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Your main problem is clever windmill placement. Migratory birds like wind, at least that is the current results of the analysis here.
    then you're doing a really bad job considering we can solve that problem just fine over here.

    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    No one is saying its an unsolvable problem, just that it is a problem.
    so is the fact that my kettle takes a while to boil water, that doesn't mean i don't use it, you're essentially parroting the idea that wind-power is bad because a some birds get wacked on the head by the wings, completely ignoring all the other factors and arguing that really it's something worth addressing with this gizmo, that doesn't manage 1% of the performance of a commercially available windmill design of equivalent size.

    if you can't see the joke in your own position there, i cannot help you.

    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    We aren't exactly building any coal plants in California now, are we?
    no, you're building natural gas plants last i looked, something that is marginally less polluting than black coal, but really now.

    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Just because cats kill more, we should ignore the problem.
    but we should obviously not address the problem in order of magnitude either, the devil in the windmill! and all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    That's as retarded as saying banning guns won't stop criminals so we should just not do anything.
    that is usually the argument presented against gun control. but again, it's a small problem blown up into epic porportions by money originating in the oil industry, it's not a problem anywhere else in the world, at all.

    here's a snap from Vejlerne, our largest bird reserve, take note of the white things in the background, clearly the murderous wind turbines must be butchering the poor birdies en mass right ? only it doesn't, it's not actually a problem, the air-carried high voltage wires carried trough the area where, until they where put underground 25 years ago.

    and on the other side ? well that's where the national windmill test centre sits a couple of kilometres up the road with some proper monsters usually intended for deployment out at sea being run, the next-gen monsters are going to be tall enough to be a literal flight hazard by the way, that being addressed by putting blinking red lights on the wingtips and top of the narcelle, that's going to be a interesting sight at sea at night.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  12. #1372
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
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    erm, the dude in the video even said cats kill way more birds than windmills so it's a moot point, but the area covered by solar farms is an issue

    the main take from the video is the fact that renewables must be supported by a constant power source, and then it's probably best to use nuclear since other options are fossil fuels

    ah well, we're fucked anyway so why bother
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  13. #1373
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Meanwhile, from the “This is why we can’t have nice things” file...

    https://thehill.com/policy/energy-en...g-calling-plan

    House GOP lawmaker says Green New Deal is like genocide

    House Republican leaders Thursday called on Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) to hold a hearing on the Green New Deal, with one GOP lawmaker saying the plan to fight climate change was "tantamount to genocide."

    Speaking at a press conference, House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif) urged Pelosi to hold formal hearings over the nonbinding resolution introduced in February by progressive freshman Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.), warning that it aims to “control too much of nearly every aspect of our lives.”

    “This is the start of a conversation I believe is long overdue,” said McCarthy. “We know so far that what the Green New Deal proposes would control nearly every element of our lives, from our travel to homeownership to what agriculture we could even grow. And that’s just the start.”

    The group of 11 Republican lawmakers are sending a letter to Pelosi on Thursday. At the press conference, they warned of the consequential effects of the climate plan, which aims to create jobs through transitioning the U.S. electric grid to 100 percent renewable energy.

    Rep. Rob Bishop (R-Utah), the ranking member of the House Natural Resources Committee, said adopting the plan would be akin to “genocide.”

    “For many people who live in the West, but also in urban and rural areas, the ideas behind the Green New Deal are tantamount to genocide,” Bishop said.

    This is the “but gulags!” redictio-ad-absurdum the American right has taken to any kind state intervention in almost any sector of the economy since forever, and it’s stymied progress on climate change for decades.

    Ironically, if the state had just (been able) to ignore the whining corporatists and institute pretty non-radical liberal policy (no gulags, just subsidies and incentives and maybe some antitrust and big-tobacco style legislation against the petrocorps) on addressing climate maybe 20 years ago, we’d be so much further ahead of the curve than we are today.

    The longer we keep half-asssing this, the more likely it is that any solutions—be it to mitigate emissions and attempt to hold the world below a few degrees C or mere adaptation to the effects of a warmer world—are going to skew authoritarian.

    After all, someone is going to have to rake the forests.
    Last edited by Lachesis VII; March 15 2019 at 01:06:47 AM.

  14. #1374
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Your main problem is clever windmill placement. Migratory birds like wind, at least that is the current results of the analysis here.
    then you're doing a really bad job considering we can solve that problem just fine over here.

    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    No one is saying its an unsolvable problem, just that it is a problem.
    so is the fact that my kettle takes a while to boil water, that doesn't mean i don't use it, you're essentially parroting the idea that wind-power is bad because a some birds get wacked on the head by the wings, completely ignoring all the other factors and arguing that really it's something worth addressing with this gizmo, that doesn't manage 1% of the performance of a commercially available windmill design of equivalent size.

    if you can't see the joke in your own position there, i cannot help you.

    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    We aren't exactly building any coal plants in California now, are we?
    no, you're building natural gas plants last i looked, something that is marginally less polluting than black coal, but really now.

    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    Just because cats kill more, we should ignore the problem.
    but we should obviously not address the problem in order of magnitude either, the devil in the windmill! and all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by erichkknaar View Post
    That's as retarded as saying banning guns won't stop criminals so we should just not do anything.
    that is usually the argument presented against gun control. but again, it's a small problem blown up into epic porportions by money originating in the oil industry, it's not a problem anywhere else in the world, at all.

    here's a snap from Vejlerne, our largest bird reserve, take note of the white things in the background, clearly the murderous wind turbines must be butchering the poor birdies en mass right ? only it doesn't, it's not actually a problem, the air-carried high voltage wires carried trough the area where, until they where put underground 25 years ago.

    and on the other side ? well that's where the national windmill test centre sits a couple of kilometres up the road with some proper monsters usually intended for deployment out at sea being run, the next-gen monsters are going to be tall enough to be a literal flight hazard by the way, that being addressed by putting blinking red lights on the wingtips and top of the narcelle, that's going to be a interesting sight at sea at night.
    Iím just going to point out that your point by point quoting style is impossible to respond to in a efficient way.

  15. #1375
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    +1

    I get it; it’s a part of why many questions go unanswered in our arguments (it’s easier to multi-thread the angles of a debate in speech than in prose)—there’s no good way to respond point by point in a reader-friendly way without fucking the quote structure. Add in the problem of UBB tags and it’s a nightmare. Doing it on mobile is just some Dark Souls shit.

    Pity, but that’s just part of arguing on the Internet. No platform seems to be free of it; not Usenet, not Reddit, not Twitbook, etc. If any medium platform managed it, it was LiveJournal, but that was a short-lived interlude between the inanity of AOL and kin and the ubiquity of MyFace.

  16. #1376
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    I don't know why they just don't paint the blades of wind turbines so that birds have a chance of seeing them. Oh, that's right, everyone complains about what an eyesore they are NOW without adding garish colours to them.

    The wave power generation industry here in OZ is dead as Government grants expire and the available technology is simply not able to compete with solar and wind.

  17. #1377
    Lachesis VII's Avatar
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    Tides and waves put a beating on hardware. No surprise it’s a difficult project.

  18. #1378
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    Yep, a corrosive and violent environment is a surprising poor place to try to generate power.

    We had a major storm pass through the west of Sydney yesterday. Golf ball sized hail. The chicken wire over the greenhouses meant I only lost a handful of panes, but most of my solar panels got trashed. Insurance will pay but it will be a long wait for replacements.

  19. #1379
    Dorvil Barranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximillian View Post
    Yep, a corrosive and violent environment is a surprising poor place to try to generate power.

    We had a major storm pass through the west of Sydney yesterday. Golf ball sized hail. The chicken wire over the greenhouses meant I only lost a handful of panes, but most of my solar panels got trashed. Insurance will pay but it will be a long wait for replacements.
    Wouldn't have happened if you had a coal plant instead

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  20. #1380
    The Pube Whisperer Maximillian's Avatar
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    While I'd have prefer not having my panels smashed it does indicate just how many houses have solar on the roof in the area where I live. The assessor said that around 100k panels had been damaged which is why there is going to be a wait for both replacement panels to ship in and finding the tradesmen to install them.

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