hate these ads?, log in or register to hide them
Page 167 of 168 FirstFirst ... 67117157164165166167168 LastLast
Results 3,321 to 3,340 of 3348

Thread: The Automation Spiral (obligatory loleconomics thread v2)

  1. #3321
    rufuske's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    3,993
    Nope dig deeper. Hint:
    - money printing
    - lockdown of factories
    - shortages of pretty much everything
    - demand outstripping supply of pretty much everything

    Different time, all the same ingredients.

  2. #3322
    Keckers's Avatar
    Join Date
    July 31, 2012
    Posts
    24,105
    Yes, it's almost like neoliberal market economics isn't an anti-bureaucratic force and the fetishism of bureaucracy is a common in centralised, undemocratic regimes.
    Oh look, we see exactly the same manifestation of crises as well!
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  3. #3323
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    12,854
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    WTF I hate white people now...
    Johns Hopkins CSSE COVID-19 Dashboard

  4. #3324
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    12,854
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    WTF I hate white people now...
    Johns Hopkins CSSE COVID-19 Dashboard

  5. #3325

  6. #3326
    August's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 10, 2019
    Posts
    633
    Tesla is up 50% in one month. I truly have no words.

  7. #3327
    GeromeDoutrande's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    Fakefrenchistan
    Posts
    3,767
    Clearly just your typical rational market actors engaged in the process of price discovery

  8. #3328
    rufuske's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 9, 2011
    Posts
    3,993
    GME was up 50% today in 7 days. Rookie numbers tesla. I don't mind, I can use money of overleveleraged, cocaine snorting idiots in hedge funds better than them.

  9. #3329
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 13, 2011
    Posts
    18,798
    It's lucky markets are so efficient

  10. #3330
    Movember 2011Movember 2012 Nordstern's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    12,854
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    It's lucky markets are so efficient
    At transferring wealth? Absolutely.

    In typical fashion, I tend to ignore my positions. Only by chance did I notice today that RIOT passed $40. Unloaded during the bull trap and pocketed a 29% return after two months. Not bad.
    "Holy shit, I ask you to stop being autistic and you debate what autistic is." - spasm
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkonis Trassler View Post
    WTF I hate white people now...
    Johns Hopkins CSSE COVID-19 Dashboard

  11. #3331
    August's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 10, 2019
    Posts
    633
    Just read a nice summary of the world’s economy by Chinese historian Qin Hui at https://www.readingthechinadream.com...-dilemmas.html.

    The text translated here is very much of a piece with Qin’s contrarian approach. On the pretext of critiquing Thomas Piketty’s Twenty-First Century Capitalism, Qin offers his own reading of the fates of “capitalism” and “socialism” under conditions of globalization, and argues not only that Piketty’s argument is wrong-headed, but that the debate in the West between Piketty’s Left-wing supporters and Right-wing detractors serves to distract the West from the potentially fatal impact of China’s challenge to both socialism and capitalism.

    Qin Hui rejects virtually all of Piketty’s argument, as well as the debate his book sparked. The source of the inequalities affecting developed economies, according to Qin, is China, which has taken advantage of the forces of globalization to erode the basis of post-war Western prosperity. The argument is simple: when China joined the world economy in the reform and opening era, capital flocked to China to take advantage of low-wage labor and what Qin calls China’s “low human rights advantage,” i.e., the state’s commitment to development at any cost (land-confiscation, suppression of workers’ rights, exploitation of migrant workers, etc.). Over time, China became the “world’s factory,” producing quality goods at low prices, at the expense of jobs and tax revenues in the developed world previously inhabited by the capital that had now fled to China. Despite a surplus of capital and increasingly frequent labor shortages, the naked power of the Chinese state keeps the machine running, lending the profits back to the developed economies so that the “exchange” can continue. Such debts only intensify the crisis of the developed world, as governments are already attempting to supply more “welfare” to increasing numbers of unemployed despite a fall in tax revenues.

    Qin is less troubled by flaws in Piketty’s argument than by the irrelevance of the huge debate that it sparked. The Left worries about the return of “savage capitalism” and the Right about the return of “Marxist socialism.” Both ignore the manifest danger posed by China, which pretends to be socialist, and is destroying post-war Western prosperity through systematic exploitation of its own people.

  12. #3332
    Jack Coutu's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 9, 2011
    Location
    marketjacker
    Posts
    2,927
    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Just read a nice summary of the world’s economy by Chinese historian Qin Hui at https://www.readingthechinadream.com...-dilemmas.html.

    The text translated here is very much of a piece with Qin’s contrarian approach. On the pretext of critiquing Thomas Piketty’s Twenty-First Century Capitalism, Qin offers his own reading of the fates of “capitalism” and “socialism” under conditions of globalization, and argues not only that Piketty’s argument is wrong-headed, but that the debate in the West between Piketty’s Left-wing supporters and Right-wing detractors serves to distract the West from the potentially fatal impact of China’s challenge to both socialism and capitalism.

    Qin Hui rejects virtually all of Piketty’s argument, as well as the debate his book sparked. The source of the inequalities affecting developed economies, according to Qin, is China, which has taken advantage of the forces of globalization to erode the basis of post-war Western prosperity. The argument is simple: when China joined the world economy in the reform and opening era, capital flocked to China to take advantage of low-wage labor and what Qin calls China’s “low human rights advantage,” i.e., the state’s commitment to development at any cost (land-confiscation, suppression of workers’ rights, exploitation of migrant workers, etc.). Over time, China became the “world’s factory,” producing quality goods at low prices, at the expense of jobs and tax revenues in the developed world previously inhabited by the capital that had now fled to China. Despite a surplus of capital and increasingly frequent labor shortages, the naked power of the Chinese state keeps the machine running, lending the profits back to the developed economies so that the “exchange” can continue. Such debts only intensify the crisis of the developed world, as governments are already attempting to supply more “welfare” to increasing numbers of unemployed despite a fall in tax revenues.

    Qin is less troubled by flaws in Piketty’s argument than by the irrelevance of the huge debate that it sparked. The Left worries about the return of “savage capitalism” and the Right about the return of “Marxist socialism.” Both ignore the manifest danger posed by China, which pretends to be socialist, and is destroying post-war Western prosperity through systematic exploitation of its own people.
    Basic thinking would show this to be hilariously stupid. Then again it's you.

  13. #3333
    Lief Siddhe's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 15, 2011
    Location
    Zagreb, Croatia
    Posts
    8,759
    Please share some of your basic thinking then to explain the developments in socialism, capitalism and the global economy in the last 100 years or so and how we got to where we are now
    I was somewhere around Old Man Star, on the edge of Essence, when drugs began to take hold.

  14. #3334
    August's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 10, 2019
    Posts
    633
    Only basic thinking is necessary to show that a Tsinghua University professor of economic history is wrong about his area of specialization? Well, that saves us a world of trouble!

  15. #3335
    tulip's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 11, 2011
    Posts
    2,220
    China exploiting global capitalism to establish itself as the means of production, instead of employing force to seize the means of production: baffles free market proponents.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarminic View Post
    Just for the record, "sending a needy text" is never the right answer.

  16. #3336
    GeromeDoutrande's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Location
    Fakefrenchistan
    Posts
    3,767
    Chinese state developers step up land auction activity to rescue local governments
    Evergrande and other private sector groups have been driven to the edge of bankruptcy
    https://www.ft.com/content/b946f567-...a-a775be08bcb5

    Over the past three months state developers have bought three-quarters of residential land sold at auctions in 22 big cities by value, according to a Financial Times analysis of public records. They had previously purchased only about 45 per cent of land plots sold at auctions, which is the biggest source of income for local governments. A year-long drive by Beijing to reduce leverage across the property sector, which is estimated to account for about one-third of total output in the world’s second-largest economy, has driven Evergrande and other private-sector Chinese developers to the brink of bankruptcy. That, in turn, has damped buyer demand at land auctions, hitting local government finances hard.

    “Local governments are counting on state groups, which have access to cheap credit, to keep land sales from falling off a cliff,” said Chai Duo, a professor at Central University of Finance and Economics in Beijing and a government policy adviser. “Debt-laden private developers are focused on reducing their leverage.” State-owned bidders include highly leveraged local government finance vehicles, which have traditionally focused on infrastructure projects rather than real estate. According to the public records reviewed by the Financial Times, LGFVs have accounted for about a third of land purchases by value at auctions since September, compared with just over 10 per cent earlier in the year. “Our land purchases are political decisions, not business ones,” said an official at Fenghua Urban Investment Corp, who asked not to be identified. Fenghua is an LGFV in the eastern city of Ningbo, where it paid Rmb682m ($107m) for two plots of land earlier this month.

    State-owned bidders, however, have not been able to fill completely the vacuum left by retreating private-sector developers. Since September, almost a third of all auctions have failed, with no bidders willing to pay the minimum price. The previous auction failure rate was just 6.5 per cent. In Beijing, traditionally one of China’s hottest property markets, 26 out of 43 plots on offer at the city’s latest auction in October failed to attract even a single bidder. “We are at the beginning of a systematic collapse of land auctions if policy tightening continues,” said the head of research at a leading real estate consultancy in the capital, who asked not to be identified.

    While the Chinese government has eased some policies to relieve the pressure building on China’s property sector, it has shown no sign of backing down on the strict “red line” leverage limits that pushed Evergrande and a few other developers to the brink. China’s central bank recently published data showing a strong year-on-year increase in mortgage lending in October — a departure from its normal practice of publishing only quarterly mortgage lending data. “The unusual disclosure of a monthly figure is clearly another attempt to calm market sentiment,” Wei He and Xiaoxi Zhang at Gavekal Dragonomics, a Beijing research firm, wrote in a recent report. “Banks have been allowed or encouraged to pick up the pace of mortgage lending.”

    “There is no way the land market can recover without policy easing,” added Ai Zhenqiang, a researcher at Mingyuan Real Estate Research Institute in Shenzhen. Private sector developers that bid freely at auctions earlier this year said that the market’s recent downturn had dissuaded them from returning to the fray. On November 8, Niu Wei, an executive at Shenzhen developer Excellence Group, told a meeting that his group “lacked the capacity” to bid at auctions after spending more than Rmb21bn for land plots this year, according to a transcript seen by the FT. The meeting was attended by multiple Shenzhen developers, banks, trust companies, bond investors and a think-tank affiliated to the State Council, China’s cabinet. “It makes more sense to stand by than burn cash to bet on an uncertain future,” added a real estate executive in Beijing, who asked not to be named.

  17. #3337
    mewninn's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    4,277
    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Only basic thinking is necessary to show that a Tsinghua University professor of economic history is wrong about his area of specialization? Well, that saves us a world of trouble!
    Nah it's quite bad. Basically a mirror of the Indispensable Nation bullshit we still get about the USA.

    Both ignore the manifest danger posed by China, which pretends to be socialist, and is destroying post-war Western prosperity through systematic exploitation of its own people
    We did the damage all on our own. Outsourcing was just one part of the war waged on western prosperity, you still had people here in the good ol' USA who have stripped out all the copper wiring and pipes in this country. They aren't Chinese. And the people who decided to outsource production and just keep outsourcing until we could produce nothing, those guys weren't Chinese neither.

    China does not represent a challenge to capitalism at all, it's as proudly capitalist in spirit as the average first-world mixed economy is now, if not more so. It is however a threat to one particular form (low investment, steal-not-everything-nailed-down-neoliberalism) of capitalism. That's the mistake he's making, conflating capitalism and its many forms with the specific program the west has been running on for 50 years.

    The people in Washington, New York, and London still want to run the world instead of Xi, and the big covid spending packages show that they're at least a little bit serious about catching up (they're still incompetents who will fail). Neoliberalism is dying as its usefulness has dried up and now it's an albatross with the global conflict that has to happen between one declining power and one ascendant power. Something else will take its place soon. Probably something bad.

  18. #3338
    Keckers's Avatar
    Join Date
    July 31, 2012
    Posts
    24,105
    Liberals not understanding capitalism in absolute non-shocker. China has exploited the failure of western capitalism to future proof itself from internal contradictions in favour of short term asset stripping for bourgeois comfort.

    Western finance has mistaken leverage for genius for over three decades. China probably won't make the same mistake.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  19. #3339
    August's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 10, 2019
    Posts
    633
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Only basic thinking is necessary to show that a Tsinghua University professor of economic history is wrong about his area of specialization? Well, that saves us a world of trouble!
    Nah it's quite bad. Basically a mirror of the Indispensable Nation bullshit we still get about the USA.

    Both ignore the manifest danger posed by China, which pretends to be socialist, and is destroying post-war Western prosperity through systematic exploitation of its own people
    We did the damage all on our own. Outsourcing was just one part of the war waged on western prosperity, you still had people here in the good ol' USA who have stripped out all the copper wiring and pipes in this country. They aren't Chinese. And the people who decided to outsource production and just keep outsourcing until we could produce nothing, those guys weren't Chinese neither.

    China does not represent a challenge to capitalism at all, it's as proudly capitalist in spirit as the average first-world mixed economy is now, if not more so. It is however a threat to one particular form (low investment, steal-not-everything-nailed-down-neoliberalism) of capitalism. That's the mistake he's making, conflating capitalism and its many forms with the specific program the west has been running on for 50 years.

    The people in Washington, New York, and London still want to run the world instead of Xi, and the big covid spending packages show that they're at least a little bit serious about catching up (they're still incompetents who will fail). Neoliberalism is dying as its usefulness has dried up and now it's an albatross with the global conflict that has to happen between one declining power and one ascendant power. Something else will take its place soon. Probably something bad.
    To clarify for all, the quote I included is not Qin Hui's writings. It is an introduction by the translator to Qin's book review. The actual review then follows, in the link.

    Indispensable nation means the world needs and looks to the United States for help. I don't see a mirror claim about China, so I am not sure what you mean by your comparison. The book review itself takes quite a negative view of the Chinese government.

    Moreover, it seems you are talking entirely past Qin Hui's points. For example, you say China is capitalist in spirit. What about the supra-economic framework that is the CCP and its ability to impose its will on all parties in the state, both labor and capital? Hui's claim is then that this makes the dynamics of China's economy different than the dynamics predicated by the typical forces in economic theory, because of the presence of this external force (the CCP). I find it convincing, in general, beyond Hui's writings, to say that China is in service not to capital, but to the 'emperor' as Hui puts it.

    The further claim is then that the Chinese government, the CCP, has deliberately imposed distortions in their economy through, mainly, the exploitation of its own people not via economic means but via the raw power of the state itself, thus producing a domestic demand deficiency in China. This domestic demand deficiency benefits neither labor nor capital in China. However, it has benefitted the CCP, since it promotes the deep trade imbalances in the global market that we see today which weakens China's geopolitical rivals and transfers ever and ever more power to the CCP.

    From your comment, it seems that you think this is either false or an inconsequential problem.

  20. #3340
    Donor
    Join Date
    April 10, 2011
    Posts
    109
    Quote Originally Posted by mewninn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by August View Post
    Only basic thinking is necessary to show that a Tsinghua University professor of economic history is wrong about his area of specialization? Well, that saves us a world of trouble!
    Nah it's quite bad. Basically a mirror of the Indispensable Nation bullshit we still get about the USA.

    Both ignore the manifest danger posed by China, which pretends to be socialist, and is destroying post-war Western prosperity through systematic exploitation of its own people
    We did the damage all on our own. Outsourcing was just one part of the war waged on western prosperity, you still had people here in the good ol' USA who have stripped out all the copper wiring and pipes in this country. They aren't Chinese. And the people who decided to outsource production and just keep outsourcing until we could produce nothing, those guys weren't Chinese neither.

    China does not represent a challenge to capitalism at all, it's as proudly capitalist in spirit as the average first-world mixed economy is now, if not more so. It is however a threat to one particular form (low investment, steal-not-everything-nailed-down-neoliberalism) of capitalism. That's the mistake he's making, conflating capitalism and its many forms with the specific program the west has been running on for 50 years.

    The people in Washington, New York, and London still want to run the world instead of Xi, and the big covid spending packages show that they're at least a little bit serious about catching up (they're still incompetents who will fail). Neoliberalism is dying as its usefulness has dried up and now it's an albatross with the global conflict that has to happen between one declining power and one ascendant power. Something else will take its place soon. Probably something bad.
    Neo-Taylorism and some technofash bullshit as climate conditions degrade maybe. Idk.

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •