The Automation Spiral (obligatory loleconomics thread v2)

[rufuske]

Only basic thinking is necessary to show that a Tsinghua University professor of economic history is wrong about his area of specialization? Well, that saves us a world of trouble!

Nah it's quite bad. Basically a mirror of the Indispensable Nation bullshit we still get about the USA.

Both ignore the manifest danger posed by China, which pretends to be socialist, and is destroying post-war Western prosperity through systematic exploitation of its own people

We did the damage all on our own. Outsourcing was just one part of the war waged on western prosperity, you still had people here in the good ol' USA who have stripped out all the copper wiring and pipes in this country. They aren't Chinese. And the people who decided to outsource production and just keep outsourcing until we could produce nothing, those guys weren't Chinese neither.

China does not represent a challenge to capitalism at all, it's as proudly capitalist in spirit as the average first-world mixed economy is now, if not more so. It is however a threat to one particular form (low investment, steal-not-everything-nailed-down-neoliberalism) of capitalism. That's the mistake he's making, conflating capitalism and its many forms with the specific program the west has been running on for 50 years.

The people in Washington, New York, and London still want to run the world instead of Xi, and the big covid spending packages show that they're at least a little bit serious about catching up (they're still incompetents who will fail). Neoliberalism is dying as its usefulness has dried up and now it's an albatross with the global conflict that has to happen between one declining power and one ascendant power. Something else will take its place soon. Probably something bad.

Neo-Taylorism and some technofash bullshit as climate conditions degrade maybe. Idk.

Cyberpunk, maybe even before the sequel.

[mewninn]

Moreover, it seems you are talking entirely past Qin Hui's points. For example, you say China is capitalist in spirit. What about the supra-economic framework that is the CCP and its ability to impose its will on all parties in the state, both labor and capital?

lol what do you think government is? It's coercive by nature! You got to impose your will and force people to do things that are against their own narrow personal interest (like taxes! like regulations! like child support!)

Ours has got so flabby that you think it's unspeakable to move beyond taxes and say, subordinate the market to the needs of the state and public. Right now we got everything subordinated to the market and just seeing how that goes as it dissolves every social bond and institution in battery acid to pursue 5% YoY growth

mainly, the exploitation of its own people not via economic means but via the raw power of the state itself

From your comment, it seems that you think this is either false or an inconsequential problem.

okay, and? What's the big outrage here? That it does more with the government instead of outsourcing the disciplinary mechanisms to the corporations? The United States also achieves exploitation of its own people, and it even does some of that via the raw power of the state. Among the bowties it's called "maintaining workforce participation". You don't want to apply for those jobs? Well you lose your benefits and you fucking starve.

What does "not via economic means" even mean? I think you and that prof have a prejudice against state power, as if that's the main concern for China. Or what the economic prospects will be in 30 years for our kids

However, it has benefitted the CCP, since it promotes the deep trade imbalances in the global market that we see today which weakens China's geopolitical rivals and transfers ever and ever more power to the CCP.

I'm begging you and the market brains running the west to stop taking WTO rules seriously. It's not "cheating" to use the state to your advantage and subsidize domestic production or to build bridges, or to create housing units. China just has us beat because their rulers actually want to do these things to get ahead and ours really don't

[Keckers]

Hey what do you mean the state exists to exercise political power and not just provide stability for the corporate management of society?

[Nordstern]

Supply chain crisis now threatening chicken tenders: https://www.today.com/food/supply-ch...nders-rcna7371

MUH TENDIEZ

[Arkaday]

Only basic thinking is necessary to show that a Tsinghua University professor of economic history is wrong about his area of specialization? Well, that saves us a world of trouble!

Nah it's quite bad. Basically a mirror of the Indispensable Nation bullshit we still get about the USA.

Both ignore the manifest danger posed by China, which pretends to be socialist, and is destroying post-war Western prosperity through systematic exploitation of its own people

We did the damage all on our own. Outsourcing was just one part of the war waged on western prosperity, you still had people here in the good ol' USA who have stripped out all the copper wiring and pipes in this country. They aren't Chinese. And the people who decided to outsource production and just keep outsourcing until we could produce nothing, those guys weren't Chinese neither.

China does not represent a challenge to capitalism at all, it's as proudly capitalist in spirit as the average first-world mixed economy is now, if not more so. It is however a threat to one particular form (low investment, steal-not-everything-nailed-down-neoliberalism) of capitalism. That's the mistake he's making, conflating capitalism and its many forms with the specific program the west has been running on for 50 years.

The people in Washington, New York, and London still want to run the world instead of Xi, and the big covid spending packages show that they're at least a little bit serious about catching up (they're still incompetents who will fail). Neoliberalism is dying as its usefulness has dried up and now it's an albatross with the global conflict that has to happen between one declining power and one ascendant power. Something else will take its place soon. Probably something bad.

Neo-Taylorism and some technofash bullshit as climate conditions degrade maybe. Idk.

Cyberpunk, maybe even before the sequel.

The last 20 years have made this seem quaint.

He's a quiet pastor or something now.

[GeromeDoutrande]

Amid shortage, Canada taps into emergency maple syrup reserves
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-59555141

Emergency maple syrup reserves

[Lancehot]

The syrup must flow etc

[Sacul]

Only basic thinking is necessary to show that a Tsinghua University professor of economic history is wrong about his area of specialization? Well, that saves us a world of trouble!

Nah it's quite bad. Basically a mirror of the Indispensable Nation bullshit we still get about the USA.

Both ignore the manifest danger posed by China, which pretends to be socialist, and is destroying post-war Western prosperity through systematic exploitation of its own people

We did the damage all on our own. Outsourcing was just one part of the war waged on western prosperity, you still had people here in the good ol' USA who have stripped out all the copper wiring and pipes in this country. They aren't Chinese. And the people who decided to outsource production and just keep outsourcing until we could produce nothing, those guys weren't Chinese neither.

China does not represent a challenge to capitalism at all, it's as proudly capitalist in spirit as the average first-world mixed economy is now, if not more so. It is however a threat to one particular form (low investment, steal-not-everything-nailed-down-neoliberalism) of capitalism. That's the mistake he's making, conflating capitalism and its many forms with the specific program the west has been running on for 50 years.

The people in Washington, New York, and London still want to run the world instead of Xi, and the big covid spending packages show that they're at least a little bit serious about catching up (they're still incompetents who will fail). Neoliberalism is dying as its usefulness has dried up and now it's an albatross with the global conflict that has to happen between one declining power and one ascendant power. Something else will take its place soon. Probably something bad.

Neo-Taylorism and some technofash bullshit as climate conditions degrade maybe. Idk.

Cyberpunk, maybe even before the sequel.

The last 20 years have made this seem quaint.

He's a quiet pastor or something now.

Very well said, agree with 80%. Have issues when he says things like 'real culture'.

[Arkaday]

Only basic thinking is necessary to show that a Tsinghua University professor of economic history is wrong about his area of specialization? Well, that saves us a world of trouble!

Nah it's quite bad. Basically a mirror of the Indispensable Nation bullshit we still get about the USA.

Both ignore the manifest danger posed by China, which pretends to be socialist, and is destroying post-war Western prosperity through systematic exploitation of its own people

We did the damage all on our own. Outsourcing was just one part of the war waged on western prosperity, you still had people here in the good ol' USA who have stripped out all the copper wiring and pipes in this country. They aren't Chinese. And the people who decided to outsource production and just keep outsourcing until we could produce nothing, those guys weren't Chinese neither.

China does not represent a challenge to capitalism at all, it's as proudly capitalist in spirit as the average first-world mixed economy is now, if not more so. It is however a threat to one particular form (low investment, steal-not-everything-nailed-down-neoliberalism) of capitalism. That's the mistake he's making, conflating capitalism and its many forms with the specific program the west has been running on for 50 years.

The people in Washington, New York, and London still want to run the world instead of Xi, and the big covid spending packages show that they're at least a little bit serious about catching up (they're still incompetents who will fail). Neoliberalism is dying as its usefulness has dried up and now it's an albatross with the global conflict that has to happen between one declining power and one ascendant power. Something else will take its place soon. Probably something bad.

Neo-Taylorism and some technofash bullshit as climate conditions degrade maybe. Idk.

Cyberpunk, maybe even before the sequel.

The last 20 years have made this seem quaint.

He's a quiet pastor or something now.

Very well said, agree with 80%. Have issues when he says things like 'real culture'.

Yeah, he quit and became a pastor.

Time is flat cirlcle.

[GeromeDoutrande]

China easing fails to calm Evergrande jitters in property sector
Hong Kong’s Hang Seng Mainland Properties index loses as much as 5 per cent
https://www.ft.com/content/3850988e-...d-ce38d9ea2445

Shares of Chinese Estates Holdings, a Hong Kong-based property group, dropped as much as 35.2 per cent after a bid to take the company private and reduce its exposure to Evergrande failed. The group, controlled by the family of Hong Kong billionaire Joseph Lau, had been a significant investor in the world’s most indebted developer and its other ventures, including its electric vehicle unit. Shares in Kaisa, one of the biggest companies at the heart of the liquidity crisis in China’s property sector, fell as much as 15.2 per cent. Kaisa was downgraded to default along with Evergrande on December 9 after missing a $400m bond payment. The company announced in a stock exchange filing that it had appointed Houlihan Lokey, the US investment bank advising Evergrande, as a financial adviser to respond to its liquidity issues. It added it was in talks with bondholders on a restructuring plan. The Hang Seng Mainland Properties index, which tracks the Hong Kong-listed shares of 10 of China’s biggest developers, lost as much as 5.3 per cent, putting it on track for its fifth daily drop in the past seven trading sessions.

The turmoil at Evergrande, a real estate developer with $300bn in liabilities, follows Beijing’s introduction of new regulations last year to reduce leverage in the overheated property market. Beijing is working to limit the contagion from Evergrande’s collapse on the property sector that is a significant driver of the country’s economy. China’s central bank and banking regulator urged the country’s financial institutions to support “high-quality” real estate investments, according to a report on Monday in Financial News, a media organisation partly backed by the People’s Bank of China. The PBoC has also held meetings with the country’s large real estate companies and banks to encourage healthy operators to acquire projects from distressed groups in the sector, Financial News said. It also urged banks not to withdraw loans from at-risk developers. China lowered a key lending benchmark rate for domestic banks on Monday to counter a loss of economic momentum. The central bank cut the one-year loan prime rate to combat the crisis in the property sector, the impact of the coronavirus pandemic and weak consumer activity. The move came after the PBoC in early December cut the level of reserves banks must maintain, injecting about Rmb1.2tn ($200bn) into the financial system.

[Lallante]

This is fairly minor tho (thus far) compared to the fallout most people were claiming we could expect

[rufuske]

This is fairly minor tho (thus far) compared to the fallout most people were claiming we could expect

Where did HSBC's bonds go? I'm pretty sure someone got served some real swap shit sandwich. We'll see in coming weeks.

[Nordstern]

Gay bears love Manchin.

[depili]

Since the topic of nuclear energy frequents this thread, in Finland the nuclear waste disposal facility has now applied to start operations and packaging and storing the waste in the constructed underground facility as a worlds first.

[Lallante]

Since the topic of nuclear energy frequents this thread, in Finland the nuclear waste disposal facility has now applied to start operations and packaging and storing the waste in the constructed underground facility as a worlds first.

Just to be clear, they only broke ground in May this year. While they are applying for permits and such, they are a LONG way off storing meaningful quantities.

It's worth noting that from government mandate and funding to breaking ground took them 25 years. The Company doing this was set up in 1995 with nothing but this as its purpose and its still taken that long.

Amusingly, the company that is building this repository has publicly stated (repeatedly) that they refuse to take nuclear waste from the competing Finnish nuclear power company's reactors. The government has made all kinds of threats but they remain at impasse.

We are a long way from a long term scalable solution to HRW

[depili]

Well, I have actually been to the tunnels for the storage system years ago so the claim of just breaking ground now is pretty much false.

[Duckslayer]

Since the topic of nuclear energy frequents this thread, in Finland the nuclear waste disposal facility has now applied to start operations and packaging and storing the waste in the constructed underground facility as a worlds first.

Just to be clear, they only broke ground in May this year. While they are applying for permits and such, they are a LONG way off storing meaningful quantities.

It's worth noting that from government mandate and funding to breaking ground took them 25 years. The Company doing this was set up in 1995 with nothing but this as its purpose and its still taken that long.

Amusingly, the company that is building this repository has publicly stated (repeatedly) that they refuse to take nuclear waste from the competing Finnish nuclear power company's reactors. The government has made all kinds of threats but they remain at impasse.

We are a long way from a long term scalable solution to HRW

Just broken ground?

[Zeekar]

You have to take in account that lall is pmuch always lying his ass off.

[NoirAvlaa]

You have to take in account that lall is pmuch always lying his ass off.

well ye he's a lawyer

[Keckers]

He's been paid off by big battery™ to slander nuclear