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Thread: (Germany über alles) Superior EU Politics Thread

  1. #2461
    Liare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Caine View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Caine View Post
    Also, I just realised I sound like Keckers. His damn red propaganda has been getting to me....
    Deep down we're all comrades.
    So it would seem comrade, so it would seem.
    In seriousness, i'm not especially left wing on many subjects. But corporate dicksucking and blindness to how damaging they are is something i'm totally on board with.
    and what subjects would that be ?

    because the entry requirements basically limited to "fuck capitalism with a rusty rake, sideways" and that's something basically everybody can get onboard with in my experience.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  2. #2462
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Caine View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Caine View Post
    Also, I just realised I sound like Keckers. His damn red propaganda has been getting to me....
    Deep down we're all comrades.
    So it would seem comrade, so it would seem.
    In seriousness, i'm not especially left wing on many subjects. But corporate dicksucking and blindness to how damaging they are is something i'm totally on board with.
    and what subjects would that be ?

    because the entry requirements basically limited to "fuck capitalism with a rusty rake, sideways" and that's something basically everybody can get onboard with in my experience.
    I'm still in favour of capitalism. I just think it should be properly regulated.

    Anyway, he was talking about corporate dicksucking etc. It says more about you than anything that you can't seem to see the difference.

    Then again, you never were the sharpest tool in the box ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  3. #2463
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    The revolution won't be the most popular stream.
    meh

  4. #2464
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    I'm still in favour of capitalism. I just think it should be properly regulated.
    Add in a strong social service/welfare component, and +1


  5. #2465
    Smarnca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    I'm still in favour of capitalism. I just think it should be properly regulated.
    Add in a strong social service/welfare component, and +1
    not empty quotin

    Careful not head hit on rock!
    laughs in Slovenian

  6. #2466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    I'm still in favour of capitalism. I just think it should be properly regulated.
    Add in a strong social service/welfare component, and +1
    That's not capitalism though

  7. #2467
    Donor Spaztick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varcaus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    I'm still in favour of capitalism. I just think it should be properly regulated.
    Add in a strong social service/welfare component, and +1
    That's not capitalism though
    Technically true, but also like saying a bike isn't a car: similar means but different uses. I can own a car and a bike.

  8. #2468
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varcaus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    I'm still in favour of capitalism. I just think it should be properly regulated.
    Add in a strong social service/welfare component, and +1
    That's not capitalism though
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy


  9. #2469
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    You mean everything which was tried in the post war years and led to inflationary crisis which gave us the current order of capital? The nature of capital always perverts a mixed economy, it always seeks ways to maximise return regardless of the regulations imposed on it. Having a wishlist for what you want capitalism to look like is naive and backwards, you need to start with the principles from which your organise society and then reconcile those with the contradictions raised within the capital structure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  10. #2470
    Venec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Varcaus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    I'm still in favour of capitalism. I just think it should be properly regulated.
    Add in a strong social service/welfare component, and +1
    That's not capitalism though
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy
    You also need to trash the economic dogma of constant growth as it's unnecessary and impossible to achieve with limited resources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-growth

  11. #2471
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Luxembourg just made all public transport free for all to use.

    Capitalism nicely limited to what it is good at, and a transparent social democratic system for everone and everything else works fine, and is still a capitalistic system.

    We just need to undo the neoliberal nonsense that has been foisted upon society since the 80ies, and we'll be fine again.

    And, yes, that includes putting economic growth above all else out of it's misery. Same with the dogma that shareholder/stakeholder profit is important above else. Or with the dogma that labour is fungible. And that everything can be evaluated according to the economic value it has. In fact, all the neoliberal dogmas need to be torn down.

    But none of this is impossible, and none of this means that the system is no longer capitalist. It will just be capitalist in a non neoliberal way. Like it used to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  12. #2472
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Luxembourg can afford to make public transport free because it has an economy built on allowing companies to avoid taxes in other countries in exchange for a cheaper fee. It's basically funded by the missing tax revenues of other nations.

    Capitalism cannot exist without growth, it would require a complete change in the nature of the capitalist means of production as it has existed for several centuries. Without the concept of perpetual growth you need to completely re-imagine finance capitalism and the class relations between the owners of capital, investors and labour.

    You are sounding just like the typical Brexiter, ignoring reality and established history and replacing it with a land of milk and honey which cannot be reconciled with our current understanding of our environment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  13. #2473

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venec View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Varcaus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    I'm still in favour of capitalism. I just think it should be properly regulated.
    Add in a strong social service/welfare component, and +1
    That's not capitalism though
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy
    You also need to trash the economic dogma of constant growth as it's unnecessary and impossible to achieve with limited resources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-growth
    The resources are less of a problem, IMHO. Ask any physicst what infinite expansion (aka "constant economic growth") in a closed system leads (aka "Earth") to.

  14. #2474
    Keckers's Avatar
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    The earth isn't a closed system, we get 9.5*10^21 Joules per day from the Sun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  15. #2475
    Donor lubica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    The earth isn't a closed system, we get 9.5*10^21 Joules per day from the Sun.
    when we figure out a convenient method of energy to matter conversion, you'll be right.


    Quote Originally Posted by Narmio
    Welcome to Dwarf Fortress, where there is a fine line between insanity and gameplay. The line menaces with spikes of obsessive compulsion.

  16. #2476

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    Quote Originally Posted by lubica View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    The earth isn't a closed system, we get 9.5*10^21 Joules per day from the Sun.
    when we figure out a convenient method of energy to matter conversion, you'll be right.
    We call them trees.

  17. #2477
    Miriam Sasko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Luxembourg just made all public transport free for all to use.

    Capitalism nicely limited to what it is good at, and a transparent social democratic system for everone and everything else works fine, and is still a capitalistic system.

    We just need to undo the neoliberal nonsense that has been foisted upon society since the 80ies, and we'll be fine again.

    And, yes, that includes putting economic growth above all else out of it's misery. Same with the dogma that shareholder/stakeholder profit is important above else. Or with the dogma that labour is fungible. And that everything can be evaluated according to the economic value it has. In fact, all the neoliberal dogmas need to be torn down.

    But none of this is impossible, and none of this means that the system is no longer capitalist. It will just be capitalist in a non neoliberal way. Like it used to.
    Funnily enough, most other places that tried this (i.e. a couple of cities in Sweden) found that you mostöy don't get the drivers of cars to use public transport (they like their comfort and convenience) but those of bikes. So, if your goal is to reduce traffic, this is not the way to do it.

  18. #2478
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Luxembourg can afford to make public transport free because it has an economy built on allowing companies to avoid taxes in other countries in exchange for a cheaper fee. It's basically funded by the missing tax revenues of other nations.
    I agree with this ...

    Capitalism cannot exist without growth, it would require a complete change in the nature of the capitalist means of production as it has existed for several centuries. Without the concept of perpetual growth you need to completely re-imagine finance capitalism and the class relations between the owners of capital, investors and labour.
    This is just a load of ideologically driven hogwash. We don't need a revolution, or complete rewriting of the current system to bring a more equitable capitalist society about. We just need to undo much of the damage that neoliberalism has done in the past couple of decades and have the government properly regulate the economic and financial system again. Once we ditch the notion that 'the market will sort it all out for us', the actual steps to be taken aren't that onerous, and we have decades of post-war consensus to guide us what needs to be done and whatnot.

    Stuff your revolution, I want to have no part of it.
    You are sounding just like the typical Brexiter, ignoring reality and established history and replacing it with a land of milk and honey which cannot be reconciled with our current understanding of our environment.
    Says the guy who's constantly advocating revolution as the only alternative ... perhaps you should take your blinders off yourself and join reality for a day ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  19. #2479
    Bartholomeus Crane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miriam Sasko View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomeus Crane View Post
    Luxembourg just made all public transport free for all to use.

    Capitalism nicely limited to what it is good at, and a transparent social democratic system for everone and everything else works fine, and is still a capitalistic system.

    We just need to undo the neoliberal nonsense that has been foisted upon society since the 80ies, and we'll be fine again.

    And, yes, that includes putting economic growth above all else out of it's misery. Same with the dogma that shareholder/stakeholder profit is important above else. Or with the dogma that labour is fungible. And that everything can be evaluated according to the economic value it has. In fact, all the neoliberal dogmas need to be torn down.

    But none of this is impossible, and none of this means that the system is no longer capitalist. It will just be capitalist in a non neoliberal way. Like it used to.
    Funnily enough, most other places that tried this (i.e. a couple of cities in Sweden) found that you mostöy don't get the drivers of cars to use public transport (they like their comfort and convenience) but those of bikes. So, if your goal is to reduce traffic, this is not the way to do it.
    That wasn't my goal actually ... but if it where, having a free alternative way of transporting you from one point to another would certainly be one of the things I'd be looking at ...

    For example, in NL public transport isn't free, but some cities have barred almost all cars from parts of the city centre. Only public transport, deliveries at certain times, and the ubiquitous bikes. Big parkinglots are available outside of the city (centre), from where you can take the (relatively cheap) public transport in. Last I heard, results were ... encouraging ...

    I wager that free public transport would improve on that system ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Miep View Post
    ...i have no idea whats realy going on...

  20. #2480
    Donor erichkknaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post

    Capitalism cannot exist without growth, it would require a complete change in the nature of the capitalist means of production as it has existed for several centuries. Without the concept of perpetual growth you need to completely re-imagine finance capitalism and the class relations between the owners of capital, investors and labour.

    You are sounding just like the typical Brexiter, ignoring reality and established history and replacing it with a land of milk and honey which cannot be reconciled with our current understanding of our environment.
    I'm sure the entire population of the world is going to happily, voluntarily and peacefully don their grey coveralls and pick up their gruel ration before going home to study the works of Marx in their 1.5m3 sleeping cube.
    meh

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