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Thread: (Germany über alles) Superior EU Politics Thread

  1. #3241
    Joe Appleby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Liare, I'm not sure if you have a leather fetish or really hate Bavarians.

    It's fine to write German/Germany.

    Tapapapatalk
    it's more a dig on the stereotype of a german, but you be you Joe.
    I know. I just think it's a fucking retarded one.

    I mean plus points for not being a Nazi reference.

    Tapapapatalk
    nevar forget

  2. #3242

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    ...
    what the fuck are you talking about

  3. #3243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Appleby View Post
    Liare, I'm not sure if you have a leather fetish or really hate Bavarians.

    It's fine to write German/Germany.

    Tapapapatalk
    it's more a dig on the stereotype of a german, but you be you Joe.
    I know. I just think it's a fucking retarded one.

    I mean plus points for not being a Nazi reference.

    Tapapapatalk
    suits the country then :trollface:

    in all honesty, i know there is at least a degree of sanity in the domestic political landscape in Germany when it comes to this stuff, but you lot stubbornly refuse to put those people near the levers of power.
    Viking, n.:
    1. Daring Scandinavian seafarers, explorers, adventurers, entrepreneurs world-famous for their aggressive, nautical import business, highly leveraged takeovers and blue eyes.
    2. Bloodthirsty sea pirates who ravaged northern Europe beginning in the 9th century.

    Hagar's note: The first definition is much preferred; the second is used only by malcontents, the envious, and disgruntled owners of waterfront property.

  4. #3244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dzajic View Post
    I don't really have any way of knowing the truth. Has EU really completely abandoned Italy or this is only about Germans not allowing Eurobonds to be issued?
    the italian economy is in bad shape, mostly because of the euro and associated policies. most of the claims of corruption and so forth are basically myth-making attempting to deflect from the underlying imbalances driving the complete lack of economic recovery in the "south".

    Italy started going "fuck you, we're doing some of the stuff that everybody without lederhosen says work, because saving our way out of a economic disaster sure didn't" last year and all indications, to anybody without lederhosen, is that it's working up until COVID-19 hit. in the aftermath of realizing just how big a shit-show this pandemic is going to be they started making noises about "maybe it's time to actually use the ESM, because this sure as shit looks like the sort of situation it was designed for", the reply from the ECB, with "northern" backing was "nah, it's fine. just take out more loans, also it's not our role to keep interests low" meaning that Italy got told to go fuck themselves, in the midst of a pandemic with the morgues overflowing, by it's supposed friends. this was of course as well recieved as you can imagine, leading to some softening of the budgetary rules, but still no assurance of adequate economic assistance, at least it looks like the ESM is going to get used though.

    they also, rightfully, pointed out that the ESM is not going to cover more than a fraction of the money needed to get the gears going again and started to make noises about the old contentious issue of eurobonds, certain northern countries went "NO-U! OUR PRECIOUS TRADE SURPLUS!" further fuelling what could very well be the death-throes of the union.

    it's complete fantasy of course, there is no way either Italy or Spain can reasonably finance the recovery from the international debt markets without the spreads going to the moon, what this means is basically another 10-15 years of permanent recession in the countries in question after spending the last 10 years recovering from the last shit-show.

    this is, yet again, a case of certain countries, especially Germany, not wanting to pay the bill that comes with the advantageous position the euro grants them on the international market, they're still pursuing a dogma that says that everybody should simply maximize the trade surplus with nary a consideration of who's going to buy all that stuff.
    Well they are free to leave EU, go bankrupt, default and become Chinese vassals.

  5. #3245
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    Quote Originally Posted by dzajic View Post

    Well they are free to leave EU, go bankrupt, default and become Chinese vassals.
    They can get in line, it was our idea first!

    [God save the Queen intensifies]
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarminic View Post
    Just for the record, "sending a needy text" is never the right answer.

  6. #3246
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dzajic View Post

    Well they are free to leave EU, go bankrupt, default and become Chinese vassals.
    They can get in line, it was our idea first!

    [God save the Queen intensifies]
    There appears to be absolutely no requirement to leave the EU to become a Chinese vassal. They've been funding public infrastructure projects in Italy and Greece for over a decade now and it will only accelerate.

    Russia has spent more money in Italy during this crisis than the EU has.


    Poland treats me like shit and I hate them as a result of it

  7. #3247
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    Let's not forget that some officials in Germany made the decision to ban exports of PPE and other supplies when Italy was crying for help. It's been reversed since then, but the damage has been done and the bad optics are there.

  8. #3248

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    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Let's not forget that some officials in Germany made the decision to ban exports of PPE and other supplies when Italy was crying for help. It's been reversed since then, but the damage has been done and the bad optics are there.
    It might be prudent to point out that it was the EU that slapped them on the fingers.

  9. #3249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan Dax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Let's not forget that some officials in Germany made the decision to ban exports of PPE and other supplies when Italy was crying for help. It's been reversed since then, but the damage has been done and the bad optics are there.
    It might be prudent to point out that it was the EU that slapped them on the fingers.
    The biggest problem with this whole thing is that it doesn't matter.

    It's all optics and what the Italian media tells Italians about the EU's role in the crisis.


    Poland treats me like shit and I hate them as a result of it

  10. #3250

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan Dax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Let's not forget that some officials in Germany made the decision to ban exports of PPE and other supplies when Italy was crying for help. It's been reversed since then, but the damage has been done and the bad optics are there.
    It might be prudent to point out that it was the EU that slapped them on the fingers.
    The biggest problem with this whole thing is that it doesn't matter.

    It's all optics and what the Italian media tells Italians about the EU's role in the crisis.
    That's no reason for you neglecting to mention it/acknowledging it.

  11. #3251
    Approaching Walrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan Dax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan Dax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Approaching Walrus View Post
    Let's not forget that some officials in Germany made the decision to ban exports of PPE and other supplies when Italy was crying for help. It's been reversed since then, but the damage has been done and the bad optics are there.
    It might be prudent to point out that it was the EU that slapped them on the fingers.
    The biggest problem with this whole thing is that it doesn't matter.

    It's all optics and what the Italian media tells Italians about the EU's role in the crisis.
    That's no reason for you neglecting to mention it/acknowledging it.
    Ok well I did specifically say "some officials in Germany", but it's also important to note that in many people's view Germany=EU

    Either way Italians are not going to forget it. -50 opinion modifier: denied medical supplies during a pandemic

  12. #3252

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    The China is using “mask diplomacy” in an attempt to divide the world.
    But Spain, Italy, CzechRepublic, Turkey and the Philippines all received defective test kits.
    Now the Netherlands is recalling its masks tooChina’s strategy is backfiring bad

    https://www.euronews.com/2020/03/29/...ese-face-masks

  13. #3253

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    I would not be surprised to see an Italian eurozone (at least) membership referendum once this is done.

    Public opinion of the EU in Italy has flipped hard over this. The ECB just outright told them while they were digging mass graves that their role wasn't to help.

    Pissed a lot of people off.
    Yeah, that hardcore austerity was pretty bad and short-sighted.

    OTOH, it seems that making an eurosceptic party the largest one in parliament in the last election, doesn't help Italian's cause right now.

    No one is surprised that people don't consider the long-term consequences of their actions.

  14. #3254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post

    Yeah, that hardcore austerity was pretty bad and short-sighted.

    OTOH, it seems that making an eurosceptic party the largest one in parliament in the last election, doesn't help Italian's cause right now.

    No one is surprised that people don't consider the long-term consequences of their actions.
    You do seem surprised that enforcing an economic contraction led to the popularity of a party who said that was a bad thing though. The long term consequences of ruining their economy was always going to be rising anti-EU sentiment.
    Last edited by Keckers; March 30 2020 at 08:53:07 AM.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  15. #3255

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    I would not be surprised to see an Italian eurozone (at least) membership referendum once this is done.

    Public opinion of the EU in Italy has flipped hard over this. The ECB just outright told them while they were digging mass graves that their role wasn't to help.
    they're right to be pissed, if the point of the european community is not to help when shit like this goes on, what is the point of it ?

    we will see what the coming weeks and months bring, but the quality of leadership on display now is going to doom the union.
    To not be at war somewhere on the continent constantly with longest periods of peace lasting less than you have digits. But we've had it too good for too long for people to remember apparently.
    Pretty much. It also legitimately isn't the purview of the EU itself to directly intervene in cases like this for all kinds of reasons. It's a damned if they do, damned if they don't kind of thing.

    If they had set up some EU equivalent of FEMA that had a budget and certain powers to help in a crisis then yeah that could have helped but it hasn't happened and it's too late now.
    Let's review the time that passed since the creation of the EU and look how every time any supra-national EU entity has been or should have been created, most countries fought tooth and nails to deny those either any power at all or make them as toothless as it gets. No one was willing to give up local power and delegate it to the EU. The United States of Europe always was seen as some kind of dystopian future that's best to avoid, instead of the utopia that's worth creating.

    We all now suffer the consequences.

  16. #3256

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dzajic View Post
    I don't really have any way of knowing the truth. Has EU really completely abandoned Italy or this is only about Germans not allowing Eurobonds to be issued?
    the italian economy is in bad shape, mostly because of the euro and associated policies. most of the claims of corruption and so forth are basically myth-making attempting to deflect from the underlying imbalances driving the complete lack of economic recovery in the "south".
    Italy's economy suffers mostly from it's inherent structure: very few large/world-leading corporations, but lots of small and mid-sized business. Shoes, cloths, agriculture. Exactly the type of business which suffers the most from any economical crisis, because of their severe lack of lobbying power*). Closure of any of these business goes by largely unnoticed in every single case and only shows up in the monthly numbers (e.g. unemployment). Any single of these manufacturers isn't "worth" to be rescued with some spectacular (=PR stunt) maneuver similar to the likes that happened in Germany or France, for example.

    *) I personally despise lobbying, but much to my dismay it unfortunately works.

  17. #3257
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    Italy made the mistake of producing low margin products which people use every single day instead of specialising in moving money around and doing fancy maths with it.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  18. #3258

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post

    Yeah, that hardcore austerity was pretty bad and short-sighted.

    OTOH, it seems that making an eurosceptic party the largest one in parliament in the last election, doesn't help Italian's cause right now.

    No one is surprised that people don't consider the long-term consequences of their actions.
    You do seem surprised that enforcing an economic contraction led to the popularity of a party who said that was a bad thing though. The long term consequences of ruining their economy was always going to be rising anti-EU sentiment.
    No, I'm not surprised at all. I'm just pointing out the typical reaction of EU politicians and voters: despise the EU (and threaten to leave it) during "peace times". Cry for its help when the shit hits the fan. Remember when during the refugee crisis lots of member countries refused to intake refugees from Greece/Italy? Let's just wait for the same lot to cry for even more economical help after the actual disease has been under control.

    Solidarity doesn't fit well with most of mankind. The current situation again showed that people are selfish. Remember when EU country after country closed its borders in a panic reaction without consultation of the EU? And the neighboring EU country now had to deal with those at the borders that have been refused to enter the other country.

    And I'm pretty sure I can foresee the political outcome of this pandemic (and comments along that line have already been made): it will shift back to more nationalism - which I think is a good thing when it comes to production, e.g. not shipping every fucking screw for your products from one side o the planet to the other. But that ofc will stay as it is - it's cheaper "over there". But we'll see the rise of more totalitarian regulations - all in the name of "safety", ofc. And we'll see it implemented on a national level instead coming to a European standard/solution and an EU organization that can handle/oversee it effectively. i.e. has actual deciding powers and isn't a toothless "advisory".

    And voters in every country - having caused this shitshow in the first place - will even vote more for nationalistic parties/programs. Which in turn helps accelerate climate change, because getting that catastrophe under control would require a worldwide effort.

  19. #3259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hel OWeen View Post
    And voters in every country - having caused this shitshow in the first place - will even vote more for nationalistic parties/programs.
    Voters aren't in power mate.
    Look, the wages you withheld from the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves for slaughter.

  20. #3260
    Movember 2012 Stoffl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Italy made the mistake of generally being pretty shit
    fyp

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