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Thread: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspective

  1. #141
    Leboe's Avatar
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiroi Okami
    Quote Originally Posted by Resi
    Garmon should bake Soundwave a cake and send him free HYDRA RELOADED merchandise as an apology.
    We should totally make HYDRA merchandise.....


    I had my altcorp in hydra for a week or two, would totally buy a tshirt with that logo

  2. #142

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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Quote Originally Posted by zanon
    Quote Originally Posted by Raivi
    The priority next year is going to be preventing repeats of the poor watchability of the CO2/Boars and Hydra/OB matches. They'll do whatever they think they need to do to get that result. Full stop.
    Trying to get the watchability as high as possible, regardless of any metagaming, seems like a totally reasonable goal (and as you say, they deserve full credit for the effort that goes into making AT happen). However, I'm genuinely curious about what you think could be done to prevent something like Hydra/0B. That match was an example of perhaps the trickiest situation of all to prevent: a pure, genuine fuck up. Both teams got their primarily by just being better, and (particularly 0B) showed some fantastic matches along the way. In theory, that seems exactly how one would want it to go, so what could be done to prevent them from getting to the end? Having gotten there, they then tried to do something cool, but blew it, rules against "purposeful trolling" or whatever wouldn't help because that doesn't appear to be what happened, it was spontaneous.

    The first most simple, direct change I can think of would simply be to put the Final on its own day. It appears a lot of the issues were simply a matter of exhaustion, and fucking up under those circumstances is something probably all of us have experienced in EVE. I know my last real expensive loss happened late Sunday after an exhausting 2-day OP that had also gone really well. If Hydra/0B had simply had some time to collect, get over the euphoria/tiredness, at the least they probably could have staged things much better. This change does involve any unpredictable mechanics stuff, though it still depends on the participants' good intentions to put on a decent (even if show) match.

    The second would simply be to ensure that there was more serious competition amongst the whole thing, lot of ways to go about that, but there were clearly many alliances there this time around who weren't that serious (and thus, despite numbers, a significant delta between those who really cared and could challenge and those that weren't). To get to the end, both Hydra and 0B had to actually beat/meta everyone in their path. Simply having stronger competition along the way would reduce the possibility of doubles in the final.

    Third and finally, CCP could probably do a few things to increase the skill level of competitors. For example, despite their best efforts, a lot of people definitely don't utilize Sisi, and Sisi itself has annoyances (like the mirror/clear first post brings up) that can sap effort for smaller teams. CCP could in theory create some dedicated training systems on TQ, giving access to qualifying alliances only. Have GMs move Jump Clones there say for the participating teams, stock the station(s) ala Sisi. There are simple in-game ways with that kind of control to limit spying too for that matter, let alone using their full GM powers. Ensuring that even poorer teams with less time had a serious training arena, right on TQ, might help raise the skill level of the whole tournament, which would aid everything.

    But beyond those possibilities it seems to get onto sticky territory very quickly. What would be done? Would CCP request that in case of any fixing teams contact them ahead of time and directly help choreograph the battle, ala some "Extreme Wrestling" thing? Are they even up to that challenge? I don't see how it's really reasonable to say "no practice, no spying" or practical to say "no contacting anyone out-of-band".

    CCP should, IMO at least, be careful about overreacting: IRL, a lot of bad laws come from a single extreme outlier incident, which then causes a frenzy of overreaction from politicians rushing to appeal to the mob rather then just saying "Sometimes lightning strikes, we'll look into some reasonable prevention but otherwise Deal With It." Something like this happening is hardly certain as first post makes clear, even with that amount of effort. Even with zero changes at all, the exact same format as this year, AT10 seems unlikely to go the same way. And if CCP works to make sure the Finals teams are fully rested and can devote full attention, works to ensure that it's serious PvPers, and finally helps make sure they can practice with the lowest barrier of excess effort, I think the problem may just take of itself.

    PS: great commentary btw, since I'm not sure I mentioned that myself yet.
    They're not going to make any rash decisions since they don't need to rewrite the rules for several months, but expect them to be thinking about that difficult question a lot. I honestly don't know what they're going to come up with and won't know until they announce it, since my NDA probably stops covering new knowledge at some point (might have been a good idea to read that thing) so they won't be able to risk keeping players in the loop.

    I'm firmly on the side of "Do what you need to do but please please please don't overreact" btw.

  3. #143

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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    No one who speaks for either Hydra or 0utbreak has said they were happy with how the finals went. What happened wasn't our intention. The unintended drama fallout has been entertaining but it still doesn't overcome our own disappointment that we couldn't put on the show we wanted and the show the organizers expected.

    As small consolation to everyone who saw that final we've revealed everything that's gone into it for us and our full intentions.

  4. #144

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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    I know that Duncan. I trust that you guys were trying to put on a great show and this thread was absolutely fascinating.

    My big post was mostly directed at people who don't understand what it was about the finals that the tournament team didn't like. Seeing comments about how CCP should stop crying about metagaming (mostly from non-hydrabreak guys) made me think there was a misunderstanding here for some people.

  5. #145
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Quote Originally Posted by zanon
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzel
    If insider accounts are accurate then CCP are actually pretty pissed
    Quote Originally Posted by Wensley
    Didn't realise CCP were joining in the emo. This seriously is the best possible advert for Eve.
    Yeah, I vaguely hope (though more in a "if only the world was better" way) that the "insider accounts" are wrong, and that as Wensley says CCP rises to the occasion and displays flexibility themselves, trumpeting it as a triumph. Come to think of it they could learn a few lessons from EVE Alliance propagandists there...

    In all seriousness though, it really does seem like a wasted opportunity if they stay silent, or even more stupidly get mad. The kind of effort displayed, the kind of things that went on, haven't and wouldn't happen in any other game in existence. They should feel proud of making a world like that, and be working to make it even better. They should celebrate EVE's unique strengths, because that's why people are in EVE at all rather then one of the many other MMOs that are superior in other respects.
    ......
    You people are still suffering computer nerd myopia about why CCP is so angry. I won't write it up again as I've done that enough, with confirmation from Liang and Raivi and you didn't bother to read or believe it. And that leaves you lot as the "Lalalala can't hear you" crowd for a change as opposed to always accusing CCP of that very same thing.

    CCP will, in all likelihood do nothing at the moment apart from that small comment made by Soundwave. Why will they most likely do nothing is because any overt action would involve a lot of tears about "we wuz robbed" by Hydra on the one hand (even though that would be hilarious on a certain level), and it would make them look more vulnerable than they want to. Showing emotional weak points to a bunch of semi-sociopathic cunts like a good deal of the EVE playerbase is, is probably not a very good idea.

    No, they will most likely do and say nothing now, but will probably either bring rule changes next year to either explicitly ban making them look dumb or boring, or they will use it as part of the dark side of EVE marketing angle. Most likely they'll look for a way to enforce "active play" of some kind, as boring shit like Sunday is the last thing they want. If they can't find a good way to do that then Sunday will probably have been the last AT, and you will all be able to thank Hydra for that.
    Будь смиренным, будь кротким, не заботься о тленном
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  6. #146

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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    "Intentional ceasing of aggression for the purposes of manipulating the result of the match will lead to disqualification."

    See, the thing is, no one's complained at any point about the spying and the practice and the deals - it's that you're so BAD at them. The entire world is run with backroom deals that no one ever hears about because there would be consequences. However, EVE is a game, so people take pride in their shady deals and want to gloat about it, because there are no consequences.

    If playing a match that looks obviously fixed would get you disqualified, I guarantee that Hydra and Outbreak would have played the match of the tournament and the viewers would have been happy. Then they'd have posted this write-up and the metagamers would have been happy. All-in-all, it's a win-win for everyone and every match will LOOK like it was hard-fought even if it wasn't.

    And frankly, for a couple of trillion ISK, playing 15 minutes of convincing EVE theater isn't much to ask for...

  7. #147

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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Don't care too much who won and how they did it.

    I am mildly annoyed though, that i free'd up time to watch this final. Talk about anti-climax..

    Therefore i demand compensation in form of a show match of the finalists. 6x Vangel, 4x Malice each side should do..
    And make sure all dem pixels explode in spectacular fashion this time!

  8. #148

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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Quote Originally Posted by Raivi
    If I get picked to commentate again next year and there is HYDRA merchandise available I will wear the hell out of it on air, no joke.
    [imgmacro]MAKE IT SO.[/imgmacro]

    (That would be hilarious)

  9. #149
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Quote Originally Posted by Treff
    Therefore i demand compensation in form of a show match of the finalists. 6x Vangel, 4x Malice each side should do..
    And make sure all dem pixels explode in spectacular fashion this time!
    This might not be entirely impossible (I hope you are aware of the test server)

    Quote Originally Posted by Intigo
    Quote Originally Posted by Raivi
    If I get picked to commentate again next year and there is HYDRA merchandise available I will wear the hell out of it on air, no joke.
    [imgmacro]MAKE IT SO.[/imgmacro]

    (That would be hilarious)
    +1

    Good post Raivi, thanks. Certainly cleared the "CCP are *MAD*" issue a lot, or confirmed that they are a mad in a way I can fully understand and accept. I would feel the same way in the position of the AT organizers.

    Too bad that the core company is so clueless as to not give the tournament the recognition and resources it deserves though - goes hand in hand with their :care: of spaceships in general I guess? (Excuse my bittervet )

  10. #150

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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    It has a lot to do with the fact that it doesn't give any bumps in subscribers and they are a business after all.

    Honestly the small support CCP gives financially and by allowing the tournament team to use their dev/gm powers and create new ships is fairly impressive when you consider it's basically a business loss that isn't giving them a measurable profit.

  11. #151
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Quote Originally Posted by Raivi
    It has a lot to do with the fact that it doesn't give any bumps in subscribers and they are a business after all.

    Honestly the small support CCP gives financially and by allowing the tournament team to use their dev/gm powers and create new ships is fairly impressive when you consider it's basically a business loss that isn't giving them a measurable profit.
    But have they really tried (as a company) to make it visible enough to make a difference? Seeing as how hugely popular some e-sports are getting this is starting to look like one of those self-fulfilling prophecies, no?

    Gief tourney team almost no recognition or resources, advertise very little, don't get press, get shitty metagamers and bad match fixers to ruin the rest of it, unprofit? (Or alternatively, forget WIS, fix spaceships, milk tourney dramabomb in advertising, profit? )

    ...Okay I'll stop the bittervetting now.

  12. #152
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    I dunno I thought all the evga and shattered crystal ads would cover most of it, volunteered time

  13. #153
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    BTW one thing Duncan didn't mention is that nearly all space vessels that flew under the HYDRA RELOADED banner were named after Garmon's mom.

  14. #154

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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Quote Originally Posted by Raivi
    It has a lot to do with the fact that it doesn't give any bumps in subscribers and they are a business after all.

    Honestly the small support CCP gives financially and by allowing the tournament team to use their dev/gm powers and create new ships is fairly impressive when you consider it's basically a business loss that isn't giving them a measurable profit.
    You could make an argument that while AT might not create new subscribers it is one small part of the things in EVE that keep current subscribers interested.

    I'm very surprised to hear that in the past CCP has actually decided to stop doing AT's(until they started to do them again) because of financial reasons, you'd think only a company that has serious problems(like in danger of going under) would even consider doing something like that.

  15. #155

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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Quote Originally Posted by Raimo
    BTW one thing Duncan didn't mention is that nearly all space vessels that flew under the HYDRA RELOADED banner were named after Garmon's mom.
    Kil2 and I both gave a shoutout for Garmon's mom before one of the semifinals.

    And then after the last semi when Garmon told Kil2 he was going to make the final a real match we told you guys to fight well for Garmon's mom's sake. She was probably disappointed m8.

  16. #156

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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Quote Originally Posted by Leeloo
    I'm very surprised to hear that in the past CCP has actually decided to stop doing AT's(until they started to do them again) because of financial reasons, you'd think only a company that has serious problems(like in danger of going under) would even consider doing something like that.
    The cost used to be like 4-5 times what it is now. It wasn't managed very well right before they shut it down. So that is part of the reason the team is on a bit of a short leash financially. CCP was burned once before.

  17. #157
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Quote Originally Posted by Raivi
    Kil2 and I both gave a shoutout for Garmon's mom before one of the semifinals.

    And then after the last semi when Garmon told Kil2 he was going to make the final a real match we told you guys to fight well for Garmon's mom's sake. She was probably disappointed m8.
    I hope Garmon gives his mom all his Vangels.
    Quote Originally Posted by joe space View Post
    burning straight up when surrounded by bad guys... when you explode you will be a rising beautiful testament to el33t pvp escaping into the ether above those beneath you and they will immediately realize, upon viewing your bold presence above them, their inferiority and they will feel bad for what they done.
    EVE: Raz Lictor
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  18. #158

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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    so who won the finals?

  19. #159

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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Garmon's Mom.

  20. #160
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Quote Originally Posted by Raivi
    Garmon's Mom.

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