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Thread: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspective

  1. #121
    Raimo's Avatar
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Quote Originally Posted by smagd
    Hehe, somehow I'm suddenly thinking of Oveur with his bottle live on screen when the Impoc died.

    Anyhow, well played, and nice post.

    What I'm thinking now, however, is this: How comes people were so chill before the group stages with everybody anticipating Wild Boards and Circle of Two fixing up their matches in the last group, but somehow HYDRA and Outbreak are not allowed to do the same.

    So maybe they did a few other things, but quite a few Alliances had a B Team, quite a few had spies, and I'm fairly sure agreements with other teams were sorted left and right.

    Is it just because they did it best and won?

    But isn't this what an Alliance Tournament is about?

    Isn't it a little naive to assume everybody will just play by the rules, in a game like EVE where whole alliances are created with nothing but grief play in mind?
    This really - also we played "less dirty" last year and scored 2nd against EVIL DIRTY METAGAMING PL AND SPYMASTER COMMENTATOR RAIVI - Hydra(Break) had to up their game towards "dirty" or "meta" to be able to win.

  2. #122
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Quote Originally Posted by Wensley
    Also, forgot to say that all the match fixing conveniently forgets that HydraBreak despatched both PL (with incorrect intel) and Darkside (with no intel) in two of the best fights of the tournament. Outbreak's fight with Darkside might even be the best ever. How could a final top that?

    You should have done a T1 frigate thunderdome for the final

    Didn't realise CCP were joining in the emo. This seriously is the best possible advert for Eve.
    Indeed.

  3. #123
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Quote Originally Posted by Wensley
    I swear half the people in this thread don't get Eve, or CCP for that matter. All this talk of disgrace and banning metagaming is so far off the mark it's hilarious. CCP's own trailers encourage you to get involved in espionage and Corp theft, you really think they're not going to love this example of the kind of effort their players put in? Its not polished family friendly content for sure, but it is Eve and it's why we love this game and why we write 5,000 word essays on how CCP are doing X, Y, and Z wrong but we still log in. Because this sort of shit is possible. The 'bad' things in Eve are invariably it's best publicity.

    Fucking good show guys!
    If insider accounts are accurate then CCP are actually pretty pissed, but I don't really know what they expected to see when they foster a mindset of "do anything short of exploits to win". Hell most of the things that take place in Eve would be classified as exploits in any other MMO.

    You can't imo have a grey area as big as Eve has and then run a tournament under the auspices of it being truly virtuous, and it's not fair to blame the players when outside of 3 weeks a year when the AT takes place they're actively encouraged to metagame.

    It seems logical to me that if CCP want to see a pure spectacle on the screen with metagaming having less influence (since they can't stop it) then they need to come up with a format where industrious alliances can't effectively stage manage it.

    It's also worth bearing in mind that whilst everyone is fixated on the final we should also remember that HYDRA and 0utbreak had to get to the final in the first place. Unless you're an idiot and think they paid off everyone to get to the end then you've got to give them kudos for the ~goodfights~ that led there. In that context does it really matter how the final ended up? Is it that important to see tokenistic spaceship explosions when they'd effectively won the competition the moment they both reached the final?

    I do kinda find it a problem understanding the mindset of people who think that ATs - at least recently - have been just about spaceships blowing up and nothing else. At best I think they're naive, at worst I think they're kinda dumb.

  4. #124
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Thank you ISD and CCP.

    http://at.eve-ic.net/9/index.php?view=article&id=139

    (The bit describing the final is but w/e really)

  5. #125
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrea Griffin
    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan
    We mentioned the setup to ookke and he said how it seemed tailored for Hydra with 28k ehp heavy tackle worms
    28k EHP Worms? How is this possible?
    28k ehp worm is not possible. i both tested and flew in the worm team in the tourny and 28k is a bullshit number just like the 20k our PL teory crafters claimed. in truth it was something like 14k

    I also like to think a PL A vs PL B team would have been a deadly serious battle.

    anyway WP apart from the hilariously badly staged final

  6. #126
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Quote Originally Posted by hattifnatt
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrea Griffin
    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan
    We mentioned the setup to ookke and he said how it seemed tailored for Hydra with 28k ehp heavy tackle worms
    28k EHP Worms? How is this possible?
    28k ehp worm is not possible. i both tested and flew in the worm team in the tourny and 28k is a bullshit number just like the 20k our PL teory crafters claimed. in truth it was something like 14k

    I also like to think a PL A vs PL B team would have been a deadly serious battle.

    anyway WP apart from the hilariously badly staged final
    Yeah, the 28k Worm bit was one of things that made me raise my eyebrows. I initially thought it was just a typo, but with Hydra's history of veracity, who knows?
    Будь смиренным, будь кротким, не заботься о тленном
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  7. #127
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    [Worm, tournie tackle]
    Damage Control II
    Power Diagnostic System II
    Power Diagnostic System II

    Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters
    Medium Shield Extender II
    Invulnerability Field II
    Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

    [empty high slot]
    [empty high slot]
    [empty high slot]

    Small Core Defence Field Extender I
    Small Core Defence Field Extender I
    Small Core Defence Field Extender I


    Hobgoblin II x5
    Light Shield Maintenance Bot II x5


    Something like that?

    14k ehp with no command links, 20k ehp with tengu links.
    Guess you'd have to drop down the MSE to best meta if you wanted to fit a nos in the highs.

  8. #128
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Implants?
    Будь смиренным, будь кротким, не заботься о тленном
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  9. #129
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    If memory serves me right it's a typo.

  10. #130
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Overheating the hardener with KVA3000 implant (6% shield) gets you 23.8k ehp

    Doubt they'd be using 6%'s, though, or using that fit.

    vOv

  11. #131

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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    I wrote this immediately after the final day and stayed up until 5am to get it out as I heard CCP was :spacemad: and I wanted to explain everything. I must've confused the ehp number with another setup I had open I just remember it was super high for a frigate. Sorry about that innacuracy.

    There is more to the story but I only included the biggest parts. Creamster has asked about something that prompted me to reveal this as well:


    [quote:1jxcyhuw]Nicely written and congrats on your triumph.

    However, I'd like to go on a record with the following.
    We were not fed intel prior to our match against PL, we had no insider information on what setups they'd tested and considered powerful (only saw adrestia team fooling around at FDZ and read forums made available to everyone). In fact we rejected an offer from HYDRA's representative to throw our match against AAA in exchange for PL's setups and plans. I'd very much appreciate if you could reflect this detail in your article, Duncan
    When Razor initially rejected our mutually beneficial offer we were prepared to intentionally lose the Hydra vs PL match because it would mean 0utbreak would have no choice but to finish first. Our goal was to end up on opposite sides of the bracket yes, but it was also to force PL to go through either Hydra or 0utbreak to get to the final match. Since Darkside was the only other strong team we offered them intel in exchange for positioning themselves to fight PL in the knockout. We wanted PL knocked out.

    Darkside did not agree to the offer of intel for positioning themselves to fight PL so we prepared to lose to PL and fight Darkside ourselves. Fortunately for us Razor reconsidered and this allowed us to take the PL match seriously. We beat PL and Darkside had to fight them anyway which was the best possible outcome for us.

    We didn't give Darkside any intel on PL at all. We considered it, but we prefered that PL beat Darkside because we were more comfortable fighting a known opponent and we wanted to be the ones to knock out PL.

    In a perfect world it isn't just the final that would've gone differently. Before the split between 0utbreak and Hydra we suggested that 0utbreak name their alliance BRUCE RELOADED instead of Outbreakdot. With the brackets setup the way they were Hydra would finish first and BRUCE RELOADED would finish second in their groups. PL would beat Darkside and continue through the bracket to fight BRUCE RELOADED. BRUCE RELOADED would beat PL and the final would be HYDRA RELOADED vs BRUCE RELOADED. Unfortunately 0utbreak chickened out and called their alliance something boring and Darkside beat PL.[/quote:1jxcyhuw]

  12. #132
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    They were using something similar with the mids about the same, but a dcu, pdu and eccm in the lows.

  13. #133

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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Quote Originally Posted by Durzel
    If insider accounts are accurate then CCP are actually pretty pissed
    Quote Originally Posted by Wensley
    Didn't realise CCP were joining in the emo. This seriously is the best possible advert for Eve.
    Yeah, I vaguely hope (though more in a "if only the world was better" way) that the "insider accounts" are wrong, and that as Wensley says CCP rises to the occasion and displays flexibility themselves, trumpeting it as a triumph. Come to think of it they could learn a few lessons from EVE Alliance propagandists there...

    In all seriousness though, it really does seem like a wasted opportunity if they stay silent, or even more stupidly get mad. The kind of effort displayed, the kind of things that went on, haven't and wouldn't happen in any other game in existence. They should feel proud of making a world like that, and be working to make it even better. They should celebrate EVE's unique strengths, because that's why people are in EVE at all rather then one of the many other MMOs that are superior in other respects.
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzel
    It's also worth bearing in mind that whilst everyone is fixated on the final we should also remember that HYDRA and 0utbreak had to get to the final in the first place.
    Exactly, this is another true, core aspect of the whole saga: end of the day, no cheating happened. Hydra didn't manage to sneak in HG implants in all their pilots. They didn't find some way to fit officer invulns on every ship, to bring more points then the rules, to have off grid boosters, to suddenly hot drop supercaps or anything else, they fought under identical rules, with identical equipment access, access to Sisi, etc., as any other alliance.

    And they definitely fought other alliances that desired very much to rape their faces (and vice versa).

    From some comments one would think they had managed something of the above, but all of Hydra/0utbreak's plans could have been derailed by one, "easy" measure: simply having someone else be better. If another team had won, that would have been that. Not sure how much more can be asked for then that in a competition.

  14. #134

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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Since the discussion is split into two threads and this applies equally well here I'm going to repost my comments from the "changes for next year" thread.

    TLR is that the tournament team does celebrate eve metagaming and definitely consider it a selling point for the game. But when teams take actions that appear to intentionally damage the watchability of their matches they consider that an unacceptable action. They were cheering metagaming up to the point of the CO2/Boars and Hydra/Outbreak matches and they will continue to cheer it on when it isn't being used to (on the surface) "troll" the massive amount of work they do to put on a free show.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tropic9
    That first statement is rather curious I think. Meta gaming, when done right, will result in boring matches. The whole point of it is to gain a big enough advantage over your opponent to make the outcome of the match a pre-determined issue. How could they be ok with the cause but not the effect?
    To a certain extent you are right, and they realize this. That's why I'm having to work so hard to try and convince them they there are ways to get rid of the really boring matches without putting in overly harsh anti-metagaming efforts.

    But fundamentally there are different definitions of "exciting" matches.
    a)People can enjoy uncertainty, in which case an uneven amount of metagaming hurts.
    b)People can enjoy seeing the effort and skill involved in the whole process, in which case threads all about metagaming like Duncan's give us boners.
    c)People can enjoy (relatively) fast paced matches where things explode in pretty light shows and good commentators help explain some of the concepts to them.

    I get enjoyment from all three, although in my case it would probably be in order of value: b, a , c. Other people put different priorities on each, and newer players tend to focus on c.

    You'll notice how much Soundwave talked about metagaming in the form of purchased matches and such in the group stages. He's one of the decision makers on the AT team, and his view is similar to the others. Metagaming is an integral part of eve and should be celebrated to at least a certain extent. There are no businesspeople on the AT team, they're all devs who actually play the game now and again and most people on this forum probably remember Soundwave, Sreegs, and Mindstar from before they worked at CCP.

    It's when the metagaming started to really crush C that people are having a problem. The final in a vacuum wouldn't have even been so bad, but the combo of the CO2/Boars match and the final really put the issue over the top. You'll notice that nobody on the tournament team was mad about the Razor/Outbreak match because even though it was obviously gaming the system it was doing so in a relatively interesting way (metagaming dual and all that) that did not unduly hurt the watchability of the match. CO2/Boars got at least as much anger directed at them, and they got the team instantly thinking about how to prevent a repeat of their match, but since they were out of the tournament anyways it was considered something that could wait until last year to be dealt with.

    The priority next year is going to be preventing repeats of the poor watchability of the CO2/Boars and Hydra/OB matches. They'll do whatever they think they need to do to get that result. Full stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tropic9
    As for the whole volunteer thing, maybe they should do a big dev blog some day about the AT organization and the place it has in CCP's idea of eve. Right now it's all pretty vague and because of that it is just seen as as a regular part of CCP's EVE operation.
    CCP sees it as a low priority marketing effort. All their numbers show that there is no noticeable bump in subscriptions around the tournament, so they are torn between the actual data and the gut feeling that a good tournament should help eve's profile at least slightly.
    The budget got out of control a few years back, many of you vets will remember the big gap between tournaments after they had used to do two per year when we all thought there would be no more. Well CCP realized how much money they were spending on something that gave them no actual demonstrable subscriber advantage. Only way to being it back was for a lot of members of the current team to convince their bosses to bring it back with a drastically slashed budget. Nobody is paid for for their work on it and the only reason we were able to do two weekends this year was increased sponsor income.

    They take a lot of pride in bringing a high quality broadcast to the community, and yes they do dream of it becoming a uniquely eve form of e-sport. Seeing matches get thrown in a boring way feels like a spit in the face and more than anything it drains the enthusiasm they have for running future tournaments. Since the tournament exist solely because of that enthusiasm, that's not a good thing.

    I am not blaming Garmon and the guys for doing this on purpose or trying to say they're not sorry, since they obviously are. But all the people blaming :ccp: for somehow being emo about this should see things from the team's perspective for a moment, consider how measured their public announcements have been under the circumstances and thank them for putting all that free work into giving us a great broadcast every year.

  15. #135
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Garmon should bake Soundwave a cake and send him free HYDRA RELOADED merchandise as an apology.

  16. #136

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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Quote Originally Posted by Resi
    Garmon should bake Soundwave a cake and send him free HYDRA RELOADED merchandise as an apology.
    We should totally make HYDRA merchandise.....
    My latest PVP video: Freestyle III

  17. #137

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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    If I get picked to commentate again next year and there is HYDRA merchandise available I will wear the hell out of it on air, no joke.

  18. #138

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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Raivi. Good post. I gotta say this years commentary was excellent. I had some issues with the constant pimping of incarna, but that was to be expected. As has been said sorry we fucked up the final, the reasons have already been well documented as to what went wrong.

    I would say next year we will give you a proper Hydra v OB final. But I have a sneaky suspicion we might find ourselves playing each other, with whatever other changes CCP make (assuming also they don't get rid of the auto qualifiers to fuck us over even more).

    But yeah ? you guys for the work and effort you put into it, but I hope others also understand the effort that went into it our end. AT needs the support of both the players and CCP for it to work.

  19. #139

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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Quote Originally Posted by Raivi
    The priority next year is going to be preventing repeats of the poor watchability of the CO2/Boars and Hydra/OB matches. They'll do whatever they think they need to do to get that result. Full stop.
    Trying to get the watchability as high as possible, regardless of any metagaming, seems like a totally reasonable goal (and as you say, they deserve full credit for the effort that goes into making AT happen). However, I'm genuinely curious about what you think could be done to prevent something like Hydra/0B. That match was an example of perhaps the trickiest situation of all to prevent: a pure, genuine fuck up. Both teams got their primarily by just being better, and (particularly 0B) showed some fantastic matches along the way. In theory, that seems exactly how one would want it to go, so what could be done to prevent them from getting to the end? Having gotten there, they then tried to do something cool, but blew it, rules against "purposeful trolling" or whatever wouldn't help because that doesn't appear to be what happened, it was spontaneous.

    The first most simple, direct change I can think of would simply be to put the Final on its own day. It appears a lot of the issues were simply a matter of exhaustion, and fucking up under those circumstances is something probably all of us have experienced in EVE. I know my last real expensive loss happened late Sunday after an exhausting 2-day OP that had also gone really well. If Hydra/0B had simply had some time to collect, get over the euphoria/tiredness, at the least they probably could have staged things much better. This change does involve any unpredictable mechanics stuff, though it still depends on the participants' good intentions to put on a decent (even if show) match.

    The second would simply be to ensure that there was more serious competition amongst the whole thing, lot of ways to go about that, but there were clearly many alliances there this time around who weren't that serious (and thus, despite numbers, a significant delta between those who really cared and could challenge and those that weren't). To get to the end, both Hydra and 0B had to actually beat/meta everyone in their path. Simply having stronger competition along the way would reduce the possibility of doubles in the final.

    Third and finally, CCP could probably do a few things to increase the skill level of competitors. For example, despite their best efforts, a lot of people definitely don't utilize Sisi, and Sisi itself has annoyances (like the mirror/clear first post brings up) that can sap effort for smaller teams. CCP could in theory create some dedicated training systems on TQ, giving access to qualifying alliances only. Have GMs move Jump Clones there say for the participating teams, stock the station(s) ala Sisi. There are simple in-game ways with that kind of control to limit spying too for that matter, let alone using their full GM powers. Ensuring that even poorer teams with less time had a serious training arena, right on TQ, might help raise the skill level of the whole tournament, which would aid everything.

    But beyond those possibilities it seems to get onto sticky territory very quickly. What would be done? Would CCP request that in case of any fixing teams contact them ahead of time and directly help choreograph the battle, ala some "Extreme Wrestling" thing? Are they even up to that challenge? I don't see how it's really reasonable to say "no practice, no spying" or practical to say "no contacting anyone out-of-band".

    CCP should, IMO at least, be careful about overreacting: IRL, a lot of bad laws come from a single extreme outlier incident, which then causes a frenzy of overreaction from politicians rushing to appeal to the mob rather then just saying "Sometimes lightning strikes, we'll look into some reasonable prevention but otherwise Deal With It." Something like this happening is hardly certain as first post makes clear, even with that amount of effort. Even with zero changes at all, the exact same format as this year, AT10 seems unlikely to go the same way. And if CCP works to make sure the Finals teams are fully rested and can devote full attention, works to ensure that it's serious PvPers, and finally helps make sure they can practice with the lowest barrier of excess effort, I think the problem may just take of itself.

    PS: great commentary btw, since I'm not sure I mentioned that myself yet.

  20. #140
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    Re: Alliance Tournament 9 - The Hydra and 0utbreak Perspecti

    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus
    wish i could have taken part
    let's be honest here. if you were in the final vindi with the entirety of outbreak red boxing you.. i woulda believed it if you killed them all off :P

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