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Thread: Emo Thread Mk.VII - Something Something Title

  1. #2441
    Miriam Sasko's Avatar
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    One of the ideas behind this "Beamter" thing is (in jobs that aren't teaching) that the state can't pay competitive wages for highly educated employees, so they offer somethings else instead which may be as appealing in the long run.

    This "tenure" thing is terrible though. They can't be fired for anything short of really gross misdemeanors, such as serious corruption. Not doing the work one is supposed to do is not a gross misdemeanor. There are highly motivated public servants, but the "Beamtenwitz" is not a staple of German humor for nothing.

  2. #2442
    מלך יהודים Zeekar's Avatar
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    I never understood why people oppose paying public servants competitive wages. You want well paid motivated people in those positions...


    

  3. #2443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    I never understood why people oppose paying public servants competitive wages. You want well paid motivated people in those positions...
    because of capitalism, comrade.

  4. #2444

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    I never understood why people oppose paying public servants competitive wages. You want well paid motivated people in those positions...
    Agreed.

    I would consider public service, but I can earn multiple times that by doing contract work for the government

  5. #2445
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    I never understood why people oppose paying public servants competitive wages. You want well paid motivated people in those positions...
    The way my civil service friend (despairing of the half of her colleagues who do very little productive work) explained it to me is "for society to function there needs to be somewhere that people with major health, mental health or behavioral issues can earn an income on flexible terms without getting fired for absences or conduct".

    Universal basic income would do away with that need.

  6. #2446
    מלך יהודים Zeekar's Avatar
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    But you have low level service jobs for that. Not jobs that can ruin a country :-/


    

  7. #2447
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    But you have low level service jobs for that. Not jobs that can ruin a country :-/
    Low level service jobs fire people for not turning up. The civil service doesnt. For someone with major but intermittant mental health issues thats the difference between working or not. Also these people might be unproductive but that doesnt mean they are necessarily totally incompetent or bad, just unreliable etc.

  8. #2448
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeekar View Post
    But you have low level service jobs for that. Not jobs that can ruin a country :-/
    Low level service jobs fire people for not turning up. The civil service doesnt. For someone with major but intermittant mental health issues thats the difference between working or not. Also these people might be unproductive but that doesnt mean they are necessarily totally incompetent or bad, just unreliable etc.
    Certain parts of the civil service have notoriously bad work practices and cultures. Can't really blame the unconscious employees for a steady decline into apathy and unreliability.

    All that matters is they are paid enough to keep consuming.
    We all rail against class-distinctions, but very few people seriously want to abolish them. Here you come upon the important fact that every revolutionary opinion draws part of its strength from a secret conviction that nothing can be changed.

  9. #2449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post

    Certain parts of the civil service have notoriously bad work practices and cultures.
    So do mast parts of the private sector as well

  10. #2450
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post

    Certain parts of the civil service have notoriously bad work practices and cultures.
    So do mast parts of the private sector as well
    Yeah but they've acquired enough capital over the years that the perception of success means the government is willing to suck their cock in return for party donations.
    We all rail against class-distinctions, but very few people seriously want to abolish them. Here you come upon the important fact that every revolutionary opinion draws part of its strength from a secret conviction that nothing can be changed.

  11. #2451
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post

    Certain parts of the civil service have notoriously bad work practices and cultures.
    So do mast parts of the private sector as well
    Difference is, private sector has occasional redundancy or performance related cullings. Civil service rarely does anything other than early retirement / voluntary redundancy (which usually gets rid of the most competent)

  12. #2452
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post

    Certain parts of the civil service have notoriously bad work practices and cultures.
    So do mast parts of the private sector as well
    Difference is, private sector has occasional redundancy or performance related cullings. Civil service rarely does anything other than early retirement / voluntary redundancy (which usually gets rid of the most competent)
    Not sure how that's really much of a difference. They still both have widespread poor work practice and culture.

  13. #2453

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post

    Certain parts of the civil service have notoriously bad work practices and cultures.
    So do mast parts of the private sector as well
    Difference is, private sector has occasional redundancy or performance related cullings. Civil service rarely does anything other than early retirement / voluntary redundancy (which usually gets rid of the most competent)
    Not sure how that's really much of a difference. They still both have widespread poor work practice and culture.
    For me personally it comes down to:

    A private company that provides a shitty service due to poor work practice and culture is going to stop receiving any money from me very quickly.
    A public service that provides a shitty service due to poor work practice and culture is going to continue to get a portion of my taxes.

    Though many such private companies survive thanks to apathetic/ignorant customers or lucking into having a small number of hyper-competent people that keep the wider company running, they are still exposed to significantly more selection pressure to avoid such practices and thanks to this I can invariably find one that is competent when I want something. The public sector is not exposed to such pressures or competition, so my tax money gets thrown at them regardless.

    In my own direct experience both as a customer and an employee, the private sector invariably has a higher frequency of competency unless some sort of natural monopoly comes into play.

  14. #2454
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post

    Certain parts of the civil service have notoriously bad work practices and cultures.
    So do mast parts of the private sector as well
    Difference is, private sector has occasional redundancy or performance related cullings. Civil service rarely does anything other than early retirement / voluntary redundancy (which usually gets rid of the most competent)
    Not sure how that's really much of a difference. They still both have widespread poor work practice and culture.
    For me personally it comes down to:

    A private company that provides a shitty service due to poor work practice and culture is going to stop receiving any money from me very quickly.
    A public service that provides a shitty service due to poor work practice and culture is going to continue to get a portion of my taxes.

    Though many such private companies survive thanks to apathetic/ignorant customers or lucking into having a small number of hyper-competent people that keep the wider company running, they are still exposed to significantly more selection pressure to avoid such practices and thanks to this I can invariably find one that is competent when I want something. The public sector is not exposed to such pressures or competition, so my tax money gets thrown at them regardless.

    In my own direct experience both as a customer and an employee, the private sector invariably has a higher frequency of competency unless some sort of natural monopoly comes into play.
    Counterpoint: The civil service hasn't plunged the economy into a decade long recession.
    We all rail against class-distinctions, but very few people seriously want to abolish them. Here you come upon the important fact that every revolutionary opinion draws part of its strength from a secret conviction that nothing can be changed.

  15. #2455
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Counterpoint: the companies (banks) that DID do that are actually some of the most efficiently and effectively run companies filled with the most competent people and highest competency average of any companies in the world.

    Thats not to say they arent still filled with incompetent fuckwits, but its all relative - less incompetent than your average company for sure.

  16. #2456
    Keckers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Counterpoint: the companies (banks) that DID do that are actually some of the most efficiently and effectively run companies in the world.
    >effectively run

    Does this have some other meaning I'm not aware of?
    We all rail against class-distinctions, but very few people seriously want to abolish them. Here you come upon the important fact that every revolutionary opinion draws part of its strength from a secret conviction that nothing can be changed.

  17. #2457
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Counterpoint: the companies (banks) that DID do that are actually some of the most efficiently and effectively run companies in the world.
    >effectively run

    Does this have some other meaning I'm not aware of?
    "productively"

  18. #2458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Counterpoint: the companies (banks) that DID do that are actually some of the most efficiently and effectively run companies in the world.
    >effectively run

    Does this have some other meaning I'm not aware of?
    "productively"
    What do they produce? Misery?
    We all rail against class-distinctions, but very few people seriously want to abolish them. Here you come upon the important fact that every revolutionary opinion draws part of its strength from a secret conviction that nothing can be changed.

  19. #2459
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Counterpoint: the companies (banks) that DID do that are actually some of the most efficiently and effectively run companies in the world.
    >effectively run

    Does this have some other meaning I'm not aware of?
    "productively"
    What do they produce? Misery?
    They manufacture financial numberwangs.

  20. #2460
    Movember '12 Best Facial Hair Movember 2012Donor Lallante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lallante View Post
    Counterpoint: the companies (banks) that DID do that are actually some of the most efficiently and effectively run companies in the world.
    >effectively run

    Does this have some other meaning I'm not aware of?
    "productively"
    What do they produce? Misery?
    Money.

    I assume, however, that you boycott their other services on principle and thus have never used a credit or debit card, savings account, bank transfer, cheque book, overdraft, loan etc. All those useless imaginary financial products are completely pointless after all.

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