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Thread: [Devpost] Dailies are coming to eve: kill one rat, get 10k SP

  1. #261
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Virtuozzo View Post
    Be conservative, and keep in mind the daily junkies can and will fluctuate. But yes, it should (!) be measurable. I'm not so sure a third will find religion though, perhaps a tenth - at most. It may very well be more interesting to compare data post-introduction to a next iteration of the concept (tied to meaningful content / activity).
    Remember, I said for the first week. For that first week, I expect the participation rate to be higher than a third, particularly among people like myself that want to skill up alts a little. A few weeks of effort to get from Cyno 3 to Cyno 4, stuff like that. Longer term, I think your number is likely to be accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virtuozzo View Post
    Anyhow, I'm sure you can see the temptation for a marketing perspective, no?
    Actually, I can't. From a marketing perspective, this is a loser. "You have dailies? So what? Everyone has that."

    Quote Originally Posted by GiDiYi View Post
    Wait a minute. Is this thing live on TQ now?
    No. Next release. Probably in a couple of weeks. It's on Sisi now.
    Alright, I probably should have phrased that better: "marketing perspective taking into account CCP's track record (and people involved).

    It's vulnerable to massaging data presentation, bit of a traditional CCP vulnerability - getting lost in what they want to present as opposed to what is actually represented. The second vulnerability is someone running off with a graph showing an increase of say 900 accounts a day, followed by someone upstairs pairing that with his own ideas of awesome on how to push that up. Not that that one is a specific CCP thing, but it's there.

    Seeing shiny graphs has often resulted in the wrong decisions. In CCP's case it is entirely possible for Marketing to translate a shiny into directives which impact - and often enough have superceded - product level resource allocation. So think of it as a tempation factor. Let's hook this up with special offers, special deals, conditional offerings, push the buy-in behaviour, spam inboxes and so forth. Worse, CCP has a track record of sinking resources into marketing and sales programs based on projected expectations, delivered at a much slower pace than reality itself progresses. Typically, that always resulted in resources getting sucked away from elsewhere to compensate, or some oldie throwing awesomesauce around which then the devs had to grind for.


    I'm not that worried in this case however, because of the emphasis on not simply tossing it into fancy graphs, but in research focus. The one thing which down the road can really impact a further focus on this thing is the new NPE focus. Which - as opposed to in earlier days - is a product / development / research field, and not a marketing / sales teams thing with the position change recently announced for NPE.


    From a practical - common sense - marketing perspective dailies are less than optimal. CCP's marketing however does need better data, deeper insights, which they themselves are not in an optimal position to get (I know, consequence of the chosen general marketing approach, but so be it). No argument there. My observation is that road of temptations for CCP's marketing.


    Look, I agree that there are better methods and instruments than dailies. No argument there. It's cheap, a rip-off, but we're at a stage where minor differences are very visible. But this is what is currently possible (which may say more than I perhaps intend, but meh).
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

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  2. #262
    Jester's Avatar
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    Heh, OK yeah. Now I see what you're getting at. But it's not going to play that way. CCP started ignoring daily player logins and PCUs the instant the data stopped showing the results they were hoping for. These days, CCPs Quant and Fozzie look much more at "how many PvP kills", "how many market orders", etc. Stuff that's happening within the game itself.

    I'll grant you that there's still an element in CCP that's worried about such things, but I suspect more of them are plugged into CCP Denobula's ideas about "measuring player engagement." Throwing this very simple daily into EVE was just a fast, easy way to get her some numbers to work with. I suspect she's going to be a lot more focused on "How many players that shoot one rat shoot more? What happens when we increase the reward for shooting rats? Does it make them stay and shoot more rats?" than actual logged-in player counts.

    She told the CSM flat-out that her focus is going to be finding elements of the game players like and looking for ways to guide them to those elements. Pure metrics-driven Skinner Box development straight out of the EA playbook. When one of the CSM called her on it, she denied it and then immediately went back to talking about it.
    Ripard Teg (among others)... what's our new alliance called again?
    I was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer, to good effect. Or at least, that's what most of EVE believes.

  3. #263
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    Heh, OK yeah. Now I see what you're getting at. But it's not going to play that way. CCP started ignoring daily player logins and PCUs the instant the data stopped showing the results they were hoping for. These days, CCPs Quant and Fozzie look much more at "how many PvP kills", "how many market orders", etc. Stuff that's happening within the game itself.

    I'll grant you that there's still an element in CCP that's worried about such things, but I suspect more of them are plugged into CCP Denobula's ideas about "measuring player engagement." Throwing this very simple daily into EVE was just a fast, easy way to get her some numbers to work with. I suspect she's going to be a lot more focused on "How many players that shoot one rat shoot more? What happens when we increase the reward for shooting rats? Does it make them stay and shoot more rats?" than actual logged-in player counts.

    She told the CSM flat-out that her focus is going to be finding elements of the game players like and looking for ways to guide them to those elements. Pure metrics-driven Skinner Box development straight out of the EA playbook. When one of the CSM called her on it, she denied it and then immediately went back to talking about it.
    Yup. What players do - actions & behaviour. Within given paths, but that's a different discussion. Keep in mind though that Maria has a rather heavy focus on streamlining communications between CCP's parts, that said I'm sure you notice how almost a decade and a half for distinctly different marketing & communications focus in EA's pool is something which tends to form specific perspectives and methodologies. Which is why I feel that dailies should be the domain of product development, not one where marketing simply copies & pastes from elsewhere. Marketing can have (and needs) the data.

    And exactly that: effects of stimulated actions. But potential impetus on changes in the daily graphs does not hurt. On the contrary, these days. Either way, it is not hard to see what iteration on dailies marketing would wish the explore. Which is not by default the same as what customers might be looking for.


    I'm a bit confused as to why she would deny to the CSM her focus on methodology. Maybe because she's aware of EA connotations? It's not that hard to do a bit of research and see quite a bit of history on customers reacting in .. interesting .. ways in previous times where CCP was given people from connected ventures. It's not like the toolbox is unknown, nor her accomplishments with it (nor the fuckups), nor the consequences of working by That Book for a decade and a half. Still weird though, are you sure she shut down that discussion? Cause if I remember correctly there's an interview floating around from last year where she states that it's the only practical toolbox for the job. Can't remember where it was, but at the time she was still at DICE, drilling down on revamping the player engagement focus to fit within the stepping stone requirements of the toolbox.

    I wish CSM good luck dealing with her though if a situation as you described pops up again. Very tough cookie, and a very adept Janus.
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
    .

  4. #264

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    It's not live with the Citadel patch? Well played CCP, you not only got me to login but login one patch too early ...

  5. #265
    Batolemaeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    She told the CSM flat-out that her focus is going to be finding elements of the game players like and looking for ways to guide them to those elements. Pure metrics-driven Skinner Box development straight out of the EA playbook. When one of the CSM called her on it, she denied it and then immediately went back to talking about it.
    Yup, that is exactly the impression I got.

    I know enough of how mobile games are made. It can not be overstated how loathsome an approach it is. It's using metrics to raise metrics. There is no difference between players engaging out of intrinsic motivation (i.e. the game is "fun") or extrinsic motivation (i.e. coercive measures players get no enjoyment of, but are compelled to do). Designing the latter is much easier and much more effective at raising metrics.

    I wonder when they're going to start putting some more friction in, with a corresponding change in monetization...

  6. #266
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Help me here, why would anyone feel compelled to play a game that isn't fun (however they individually define "fun")?


  7. #267
    Batolemaeus's Avatar
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    A proper psychologist can give you a much better answer than I can, but the gist is: People will pursue goals to the detriment of enjoyment. You can make people do things in their leisure time by dangling a carrot in front of them. Do you think the people ratting for hours and hours are doing it because PvE in Eve is just that engaging?

    It gets even crazier though. If you increase the friction some people will even offer you money to circumvent the obstacles you, the designer, put in their path to their goal. That is the basis of the entire "social"/mobile games market. It is literally foundational. That's how crazy people are, and how loathsome the people who exploit them.

  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  9. #269
    Jester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Help me here, why would anyone feel compelled to play a game that isn't fun (however they individually define "fun")?
    Quote Originally Posted by Batolemaeus View Post
    A proper psychologist can give you a much better answer than I can, but the gist is: People will pursue goals to the detriment of enjoyment. You can make people do things in their leisure time by dangling a carrot in front of them. Do you think the people ratting for hours and hours are doing it because PvE in Eve is just that engaging?

    It gets even crazier though. If you increase the friction some people will even offer you money to circumvent the obstacles you, the designer, put in their path to their goal. That is the basis of the entire "social"/mobile games market. It is literally foundational. That's how crazy people are, and how loathsome the people who exploit them.
    This is exactly right. Use World of Warships as an example: you start with ships that are fundamentally unfun -- weak, slow firing, slow, vulnerable to everyone around them -- by dangling the prospect of the actual fun ships in front of your players. Then you give those players two options to get there: a slow, steady grind that very few of today's gamers have any patience for, or various short-cuts some of which require money and some of which require good timing. Holiday special events! Sales! Bonuses for logging in after patches! Boosters! Direct ascent!

    Each of these tactics serve different metrics. The slow steady ones keep your logged-in player count high and help provide content for the other players. Holiday event bonuses and patch bonuses spike your logged-in player counts when they can be marketed, almost like TV ratings ("Our latest release is incredibly popular, increasing player activity by more than 50%!"). Short term sales provide a similar boost, even a reinforcing boost if done at the same time as new releases. Boosters provide a steady income stream; price them low enough and that income stream can become a flood. This one CCP has never learned, by the way: it just doesn't occur to them that selling a million players a five buck item is way better than selling a hundred buck item to 10000 players.

    And finally, make your mid-game grindy enough and you can make real money off the impatient whales. "Fuck this, I'm tired of only having four guns. I want to have 20 guns. How much for the Atlanta again? Fifty bucks? Sigh, fine, give it to me. I just won't buy the latest Call of Duty until it goes on sale." And Bat is exactly right about game design being geared to put obstacles like this in front of the player. A lot of "learned" game design theory is crafted around giving players avenues to avoid the annoying, boring parts of your game. Avenues that cost money, of course.

    That first group, the F2P folk, deserve special mention. I once saw a really pointed cartoon that showed two pigs in a pen congratulating themselves on all the free food they were enjoying. The caption was "If you're not paying for the product, you're the product being sold." It's one of the reasons I'm almost sure EVE would be much more successful as a pure F2P game. Can you imagine the impact of a continuous stream of a few tens of thousands of clueless baby seals wandering about New Eden?

    Finally, World of Warships is particularly insidious because the tier 1 and tier 2 ships that a player starts with are measurably superior in many ways to the tier 3 and tier 4 ships they move to. This is the Assassin's Creed model: give the new player a big burst of fun at the start so they'll either power through the boring mid-game content or elect to pay to skip it.
    Ripard Teg (among others)... what's our new alliance called again?
    I was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer, to good effect. Or at least, that's what most of EVE believes.

  10. #270
    Aedeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    Can you imagine the impact of a continuous stream of a few tens of thousands of clueless baby seals wandering about New Eden?
    I thought i wasn't someone like that but you made me want that :
    War is good, war is the heart of Eve, in this distant futur there's only War. Let's make a foreverwar! (By the way i belong to TGRAD/Init./Imperium, whatever i say is the reflect of my personnal view and my affiliation are in no way responsible for my shitposting)
    J'aime pas les baguettes, y a trop peu ŕ bouffer dessus et c'est pas assez large pour le fromage

  11. #271

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    Aaaand heeeere weeeee gooooo: https://community.eveonline.com/news...on-2016-05-24/

    First dailies going live on the 24th of May.

  12. #272

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    wow, this is pretty anus

  13. #273
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  14. #274
    mewninn's Avatar
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    There's worse things than people logging in more

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Help me here, why would anyone feel compelled to play a game that isn't fun (however they individually define "fun")?
    Quote Originally Posted by Batolemaeus View Post
    A proper psychologist can give you a much better answer than I can, but the gist is: People will pursue goals to the detriment of enjoyment. You can make people do things in their leisure time by dangling a carrot in front of them. Do you think the people ratting for hours and hours are doing it because PvE in Eve is just that engaging?

    It gets even crazier though. If you increase the friction some people will even offer you money to circumvent the obstacles you, the designer, put in their path to their goal. That is the basis of the entire "social"/mobile games market. It is literally foundational. That's how crazy people are, and how loathsome the people who exploit them.
    This is exactly right. Use World of Warships as an example: you start with ships that are fundamentally unfun -- weak, slow firing, slow, vulnerable to everyone around them -- by dangling the prospect of the actual fun ships in front of your players. Then you give those players two options to get there: a slow, steady grind that very few of today's gamers have any patience for, or various short-cuts some of which require money and some of which require good timing. Holiday special events! Sales! Bonuses for logging in after patches! Boosters! Direct ascent!

    Finally, World of Warships is particularly insidious because the tier 1 and tier 2 ships that a player starts with are measurably superior in many ways to the tier 3 and tier 4 ships they move to. This is the Assassin's Creed model: give the new player a big burst of fun at the start so they'll either power through the boring mid-game content or elect to pay to skip it.
    I'd say WoT was even worse. A tier 3 tank that could not penetrate a tier 5 might as well quit back to lobby. Yet there were people who enshrined these little autist-mobiles in their forum sigs, having played thousands of battles in them. In other words, people have no fucking clue what fun is

  15. #275
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    If I was employed in the game design department at CCP I would unironically up and resign over something like this.

  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmychrist View Post
    If I was employed in the game design department at CCP I would unironically up and resign over something like this.
    Why? It may not be perfect, but is a nice first step. But no, gotta ablooo bloo bloo
    <Devec> hello captain Tyrehl
    <Devec> sailor of the persian seas
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox
    I swear you are some sort of biological weapon developed in the early '90's for the Yugoslav wars but they lost track of you at some point and now you're waging a psychological war on Western Europe without a clue what you're doing.

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrehl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmychrist View Post
    If I was employed in the game design department at CCP I would unironically up and resign over something like this.
    Why? It may not be perfect, but is a nice first step. But no, gotta ablooo bloo bloo
    Because it's a lazy implementation of a dubious mechanic designed to juice a nearly completely irrelevant statistic that has very little to do with a good player experience.

  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmychrist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrehl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmychrist View Post
    If I was employed in the game design department at CCP I would unironically up and resign over something like this.
    Why? It may not be perfect, but is a nice first step. But no, gotta ablooo bloo bloo
    Because it's a lazy implementation of a dubious mechanic designed to juice a nearly completely irrelevant statistic that has very little to do with a good player experience.
    I am getting skill points, will inject them for JDC V. It is lazy, sure. But it might get people to log in and see what's up in the game.
    <Devec> hello captain Tyrehl
    <Devec> sailor of the persian seas
    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox
    I swear you are some sort of biological weapon developed in the early '90's for the Yugoslav wars but they lost track of you at some point and now you're waging a psychological war on Western Europe without a clue what you're doing.

  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrehl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmychrist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrehl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmychrist View Post
    If I was employed in the game design department at CCP I would unironically up and resign over something like this.
    Why? It may not be perfect, but is a nice first step. But no, gotta ablooo bloo bloo
    Because it's a lazy implementation of a dubious mechanic designed to juice a nearly completely irrelevant statistic that has very little to do with a good player experience.
    I am getting skill points, will inject them for JDC V. It is lazy, sure. But it might get people to log in and see what's up in the game.
    Very few things in the client tells you what's up in the game

  20. #280
    Movember 2012 I Legionnaire's Avatar
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    good change

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