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Thread: [Devpost] Dailies are coming to eve: kill one rat, get 10k SP

  1. #221
    W0lf Crendraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Amantus View Post
    jesus fucking christ, i can't believe how hard this thread got de-railed by Xw0lfX's idiotic post. I wonder if w0lf is actually a master troll?
    shame on you daneel and jester

    Quote Originally Posted by Meester View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rakshasa The Cat View Post
    This abomination should be restricted to players with 10M SP or less, perhaps even 20M SP.

    After that it's only those with OCD that will be intentionally using it, and we all know the EVE Universe shouldn't encourage more mental disorders than what it already does.
    It should be stopped dead, if CCP can remove Teams [I'm still not sure WHY they removed this] from eve, they can sure as hell make sure this is stillborn.

    Accepting it in any form is appeasement to the pve wow carebears of CCP.
    Teams are actually a pretty good thing to bring up - the implementation was deeply, deeply flawed but the idea was nice. I see these dailies as being in a similar position.
    With teams, the whole thing was a mess. The UI implementation was horrendous, the auction/bidding system was horrendous, the system was opaque and totally overcomplicated, and to top it off, they were also an awkward intel tool.
    I normally disagree with removal of game mechanics, but I think CCP did the right thing. Trying to fix them would have taken such a long time and require so much work that they were honestly better off scrapping the whole thing and going back to the drawing board.
    CCP should have realised this earlier and just aborted the feature before it launched.

    Dailies are in the same position, except obviously the system is much more simple. But my view is that if they launch dailies as they currently exist, they are immediately setting off on the wrong foot.

    I totally support rewarding players who actively interact with the sandbox. It would be so good for the game and, if nothing else, because it will actually encourage me to do the same.
    But the current form of dailies is flawed and needs to be re-thought.
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    I see you have read nietzsche's little known work "beyond boobs and butts".

  2. #222
    Donor Mike deVoid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amantus View Post
    jesus fucking christ, i can't believe how hard this thread got de-railed by Xw0lfX's idiotic post. I wonder if w0lf is actually a master troll?
    shame on you daneel and jester

    Quote Originally Posted by Meester View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rakshasa The Cat View Post
    This abomination should be restricted to players with 10M SP or less, perhaps even 20M SP.

    After that it's only those with OCD that will be intentionally using it, and we all know the EVE Universe shouldn't encourage more mental disorders than what it already does.
    It should be stopped dead, if CCP can remove Teams [I'm still not sure WHY they removed this] from eve, they can sure as hell make sure this is stillborn.

    Accepting it in any form is appeasement to the pve wow carebears of CCP.
    Teams are actually a pretty good thing to bring up - the implementation was deeply, deeply flawed but the idea was nice. I see these dailies as being in a similar position.
    With teams, the whole thing was a mess. The UI implementation was horrendous, the auction/bidding system was horrendous, the system was opaque and totally overcomplicated, and to top it off, they were also an awkward intel tool.
    I normally disagree with removal of game mechanics, but I think CCP did the right thing. Trying to fix them would have taken such a long time and require so much work that they were honestly better off scrapping the whole thing and going back to the drawing board.
    CCP should have realised this earlier and just aborted the feature before it launched.

    Dailies are in the same position, except obviously the system is much more simple. But my view is that if they launch dailies as they currently exist, they are immediately setting off on the wrong foot.

    I totally support rewarding players who actively interact with the sandbox. It would be so good for the game and, if nothing else, because it will actually encourage me to do the same.
    But the current form of dailies is flawed and needs to be re-thought.
    Got any suggestions for what a better idea might look like?

  3. #223
    Donor Mike deVoid's Avatar
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    There was a question about dailies at the game design panel. CCP take 4 minutes to explain the rationale behind having dailies, and some expansion on why they've done something so simple and what the success criteria is for committing dev time and doing so iteration.

    https://www.twitch.tv/ccp/v/62099406?t=34m52s

  4. #224
    ChrisWF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    Onlinê
    Haven't you heard? This one is passé.
    Last edited by ChrisWF; April 25 2016 at 01:46:35 PM. Reason: emphasis

  5. #225
    W0lf Crendraven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisWF View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by W0lf Crendraven View Post
    Onlinê
    Haven't you heard? This one is passé.
    I dont speak surrender.

    (i do, stupid french being mandetory in school , worst subject ever)
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    I see you have read nietzsche's little known work "beyond boobs and butts".

  6. #226
    root's Avatar
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    What is this "Teams" you are talking about?
    The Rapier is my love boat
    ~lowsec smallscale pvp 'n stuff~

  7. #227
    Daneel Trevize's Avatar
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    The roving industry specialists thing that flopped big-stylé
    Quote Originally Posted by QuackBot View Post
    Idk about that, and i'm fucking stupid.

  8. #228
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    I don't know why they didn't let players trade research services on an open market instead of faffing about with npcs

  9. #229
    Amantus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike deVoid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Amantus View Post
    jesus fucking christ, i can't believe how hard this thread got de-railed by Xw0lfX's idiotic post. I wonder if w0lf is actually a master troll?
    shame on you daneel and jester

    Quote Originally Posted by Meester View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rakshasa The Cat View Post
    This abomination should be restricted to players with 10M SP or less, perhaps even 20M SP.

    After that it's only those with OCD that will be intentionally using it, and we all know the EVE Universe shouldn't encourage more mental disorders than what it already does.
    It should be stopped dead, if CCP can remove Teams [I'm still not sure WHY they removed this] from eve, they can sure as hell make sure this is stillborn.

    Accepting it in any form is appeasement to the pve wow carebears of CCP.
    Teams are actually a pretty good thing to bring up - the implementation was deeply, deeply flawed but the idea was nice. I see these dailies as being in a similar position.
    With teams, the whole thing was a mess. The UI implementation was horrendous, the auction/bidding system was horrendous, the system was opaque and totally overcomplicated, and to top it off, they were also an awkward intel tool.
    I normally disagree with removal of game mechanics, but I think CCP did the right thing. Trying to fix them would have taken such a long time and require so much work that they were honestly better off scrapping the whole thing and going back to the drawing board.
    CCP should have realised this earlier and just aborted the feature before it launched.

    Dailies are in the same position, except obviously the system is much more simple. But my view is that if they launch dailies as they currently exist, they are immediately setting off on the wrong foot.

    I totally support rewarding players who actively interact with the sandbox. It would be so good for the game and, if nothing else, because it will actually encourage me to do the same.
    But the current form of dailies is flawed and needs to be re-thought.
    Got any suggestions for what a better idea might look like?
    Yeah Mike, check the posts I made a couple pages back.
    MAX damage posting

  10. #230
    Cosmin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike deVoid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Amantus View Post
    jesus fucking christ, i can't believe how hard this thread got de-railed by Xw0lfX's idiotic post. I wonder if w0lf is actually a master troll?
    shame on you daneel and jester

    Quote Originally Posted by Meester View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rakshasa The Cat View Post
    This abomination should be restricted to players with 10M SP or less, perhaps even 20M SP.

    After that it's only those with OCD that will be intentionally using it, and we all know the EVE Universe shouldn't encourage more mental disorders than what it already does.
    It should be stopped dead, if CCP can remove Teams [I'm still not sure WHY they removed this] from eve, they can sure as hell make sure this is stillborn.

    Accepting it in any form is appeasement to the pve wow carebears of CCP.
    Teams are actually a pretty good thing to bring up - the implementation was deeply, deeply flawed but the idea was nice. I see these dailies as being in a similar position.
    With teams, the whole thing was a mess. The UI implementation was horrendous, the auction/bidding system was horrendous, the system was opaque and totally overcomplicated, and to top it off, they were also an awkward intel tool.
    I normally disagree with removal of game mechanics, but I think CCP did the right thing. Trying to fix them would have taken such a long time and require so much work that they were honestly better off scrapping the whole thing and going back to the drawing board.
    CCP should have realised this earlier and just aborted the feature before it launched.

    Dailies are in the same position, except obviously the system is much more simple. But my view is that if they launch dailies as they currently exist, they are immediately setting off on the wrong foot.

    I totally support rewarding players who actively interact with the sandbox. It would be so good for the game and, if nothing else, because it will actually encourage me to do the same.
    But the current form of dailies is flawed and needs to be re-thought.
    Got any suggestions for what a better idea might look like?
    I wrote a couple pages back to replace npcs with players, ie first player kill for the day gives you 10k sp. Just as avoidable as the current iteration, however may prove an incentive for PvP.
    Guns make the news, science doesn't.

  11. #231
    Alistair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike deVoid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Amantus View Post
    jesus fucking christ, i can't believe how hard this thread got de-railed by Xw0lfX's idiotic post. I wonder if w0lf is actually a master troll?
    shame on you daneel and jester

    Quote Originally Posted by Meester View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rakshasa The Cat View Post
    This abomination should be restricted to players with 10M SP or less, perhaps even 20M SP.

    After that it's only those with OCD that will be intentionally using it, and we all know the EVE Universe shouldn't encourage more mental disorders than what it already does.
    It should be stopped dead, if CCP can remove Teams [I'm still not sure WHY they removed this] from eve, they can sure as hell make sure this is stillborn.

    Accepting it in any form is appeasement to the pve wow carebears of CCP.
    Teams are actually a pretty good thing to bring up - the implementation was deeply, deeply flawed but the idea was nice. I see these dailies as being in a similar position.
    With teams, the whole thing was a mess. The UI implementation was horrendous, the auction/bidding system was horrendous, the system was opaque and totally overcomplicated, and to top it off, they were also an awkward intel tool.
    I normally disagree with removal of game mechanics, but I think CCP did the right thing. Trying to fix them would have taken such a long time and require so much work that they were honestly better off scrapping the whole thing and going back to the drawing board.
    CCP should have realised this earlier and just aborted the feature before it launched.

    Dailies are in the same position, except obviously the system is much more simple. But my view is that if they launch dailies as they currently exist, they are immediately setting off on the wrong foot.

    I totally support rewarding players who actively interact with the sandbox. It would be so good for the game and, if nothing else, because it will actually encourage me to do the same.
    But the current form of dailies is flawed and needs to be re-thought.
    Got any suggestions for what a better idea might look like?
    I wrote a couple pages back to replace npcs with players, ie first player kill for the day gives you 10k sp. Just as avoidable as the current iteration, however may prove an incentive for PvP.
    Cannon Fodder Alt Character to Kill Once a Day is GO!


  12. #232
    jimmychrist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Cannon Fodder Alt Character to Kill Once a Day is GO!
    There's a system for calculating insurance values that is relatively tamper proof. I'm sure they could set the 10k sp payout to only trigger above a certain isk value that would make sure you would lose isk by killing dummies in unfit rookie ships or whatever.

  13. #233
    Straight Hustlin's Avatar
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    I think you guys are missing a major, intended aspect of CCP's implementation; in that it doesn't require any sort of stat tracking beyond "HAS KILLED A RAT TODAY? YES/NO"

  14. #234

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    The biggest problem with the dailies isn't so much their value or implementation I fear but the OCD gotta get all skillpoints nature of many eve players. Before the queue it was the juggling of skills so that you were around to change them now it is just logging in to kill that rat and that "I have to log in to do some work in a game" mentality is what burns people out.

  15. #235
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    people burning out in eve?

    pfft


    Once upon a time people timed their work so they could pos spam 60 moons in order to attack sov in a target system. Now those were dailies.

    I'm sure plenty folks here can give plenty examples for real shit burning people out. I'll happily admit that CCP - considering its history and its product targets - is prone to facing certain risks (which jester already hinted at), but burnout? Nah. Don't confuse an actual daily requirement with the perception problem of missing out on something / ending up on a slower track than others. That doesn't mean a perception problem isn't a real problem (srsly, go ask CCP's upper management about their extensive experience with that), but burnout isn't the central issue.

    Primary issue is the potential perception problem (individual thing, depends on whether you care, min/max, or not). Secondary issue is how results can influence CCP. The twitch link earlier shows the coyness, but it does give insight into where the development level is coming from with this.
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
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  16. #236
    Donor Verite Rendition's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    I wrote a couple pages back to replace npcs with players, ie first player kill for the day gives you 10k sp. Just as avoidable as the current iteration, however may prove an incentive for PvP.
    Dailies shouldn't punish players. Engaging in PvP is going to leave a lot of casuals dead and worse off than they began. Dailies are token rewards for logging in and playing the game.
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  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verite Rendition View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmin View Post
    I wrote a couple pages back to replace npcs with players, ie first player kill for the day gives you 10k sp. Just as avoidable as the current iteration, however may prove an incentive for PvP.
    Dailies shouldn't punish players. Engaging in PvP is going to leave a lot of casuals dead and worse off than they began. Dailies are token rewards for logging in and playing the game.
    Yes, that is the point, dailies in usual MMOs (e.g. WoW) are rewards for logging in and doing shit. In EvE it should be hard©. But it isn't that hard, come on. And it triggers that adrenaline rush that kept a lot of players in the game in the past.

    @Alistair - I already mentioned that it is just as abusable as the "kill any NPC rat" variation. At least this would mean effort in creating an alt and what not and a lot of people would rather try and blow somebody up rather than go through all the hoops and loops of creating an alt account
    Guns make the news, science doesn't.

  18. #238
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    So at Fanfest they said they want this system to "get data".
    According to them, skillqueue logins don't get ppl to stay logged in. And this system might.

    I wonder how they want to track that. How to distinguish someone that logged in for a ratting session from someone that logged in to kill one rat and decided to kill more.
    And will they declare the system a failure when too many players just do the login - kill rat - logout thing?

  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmychrist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Cannon Fodder Alt Character to Kill Once a Day is GO!
    There's a system for calculating insurance values that is relatively tamper proof. I'm sure they could set the 10k sp payout to only trigger above a certain isk value that would make sure you would lose isk by killing dummies in unfit rookie ships or whatever.
    You think I can't afford a few million ISK per day?
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  20. #240
    Super Everator Global Moderator Virtuozzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisWF View Post
    So at Fanfest they said they want this system to "get data".
    According to them, skillqueue logins don't get ppl to stay logged in. And this system might.

    I wonder how they want to track that. How to distinguish someone that logged in for a ratting session from someone that logged in to kill one rat and decided to kill more.
    And will they declare the system a failure when too many players just do the login - kill rat - logout thing?
    Well, let's be honest, not only is it a bit of a pattern which in recent years has influenced how people (media particularly, but also players) look at eve, but it is an area which CCP lacks insight with - which also isn't easy to really get. It's insight you build up, cultivate, not something you get from taking a proverbial blood sample.

    Here's the thing though, while incentives can work for select categories, it isn't hardly ever the incentive which gets people to stick around. Typically you get "hit and run" behaviour. This is where the perception problem presents risks. A hit & run once a week is something a lot of types will go for, but daily? To come up with an analogy, only what some marketeers call the "crazy mad coupon chaser" types persist in. Perhaps even more important however is that while you can get people triggered to pick up something in the store, you need to have a store experience and shiny seduction to keep them in the store. That said, that hit & run behaviour you get from these types of incentives is a bit of a risk in another way: it leads to marketing focus on combining the quick visit to be linked with specials. Buy-in behavour. For CCP this is risky because this is often one of the areas they go overboard with. So if CCP starts hammering dailies with plex & store stuff, that's a bit of a warning sign.


    Simply put: an incentive to get people to stick around is not the same as an incentive to get them to snatch a quicky.


    So yeah, I'll agree that there is a problem in terms of people not sticking around beyond the skillqueue, but that is more of a CCP problem than it is a customer issue. A big question is whether or not CCP has verified whether it is a tangible issue, or their own perception challenge. Let's put it this way, isn't it in line with the nature of the product's design that login behaviour is tied to human group behaviour (content holy grail)? Isn't it a feature, so to speak, that you can take breaks (life > virtual) while being enabled to jump right back in without having been left behind, proverbially speaking?

    I'd say that this is one of the strengths of the product. CCP's "challenge" isn't a product problem, it's a derived issue from not managing the product properly for too long. So I can fully understand them needing data.

    My perspective is simple: if you want this kind of data you need ways to collect it, which is fine. More important however is that you cannot drill down into these matters without a multi-pronged approach. The dailies is one approach, they really need to pair the research with another, a content approach. Bit of a weak spot, because CCP can only do so much to provide that, as this really is the player domain. That said, the most important thing to keep in mind is that the need for data comes from the consequences of CCP's perception problems lingering for far too long, replacing one perception challenge with another does not solve anything. If that happens, they should scrap dailies right away.


    Here's the thing though, players have become quite capable of signalling issues to CCP, and CCP in turn has - well, on a product / dev level - to not ignore signals but to validate them first. Dailies are a little thing which can help them to get insights - yeah I know, insights they should have gotten years and years ago, but welcome to reality.

    The irony is this: if done properly it'll provide CCP with measurable insights players have had for years. So let them figure that out, and when something else gets on the table use this to point out exactly that. Look on the bright side, for years CCP did things by private convictions, ego & awesomesauce (anybody remember Oveur, Torfi, etc? remember how they got mad when you gave them data?). Now they're carefully treading measuring things up. In the face of lack of vision, that's rather preferable.
    J'ai violé votre vaisseau spatial. C'était amusant....!

    EVE once was about internet spaceships. Then those became serious business.
    Now all that is left is serious business, and spaceships are docked for two years till after the Dust of Incarna
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