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Thread: (UK EURO WAFFLE) Limey Civil War

  1. #25881
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholai Pestot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    Setting aside heritage, in the modern world we can all accept that liberty and freedom (speech, expression, whatever) are important values. What makes the EU against these values? How are they removing them from the UK by staying in the EU?
    Because we can't elect its government and nor can we throw out one we don't like. It's government lacks an opposition so it is not democratic and thus not conducive to British ideals.
    There's 3 (maybe 4) main components:

    - Parliament: directly elected every 5 years
    - Council/EU Council: appointment by member state representatives (whom in turn are nationally elected)
    - The Commission: President appointed by member state representatives + 27 (one form each member) through majority election

    So from top to bottom there is direct election by EU citizens, to 1 layer of abstraction, to 2 layers of abstraction. That being said, the representatives are nationally elected so there is always a direct line of accountability back to national citizens.

    Your point is very broad, and I can't interpret it in a way that stacks up against the evidence. So for the sake of healthy debate, care to elaborate?
    Because the EU has no opposition there is essentially no significant group making a case against the integration agenda. This means the EU only moves in one direction. More importantly if the EU does things the British public don't like, we cannot vote against it in a general election because EU law is decided above that level. It is this conflict in our right to rule ourselves and the right to change direction that troubles me.
    You realise that a representative system of government doesn't require an opposition? The whole concept of "sides" and "political parties" and even "an opposition" is something that they evolve over time as the needs and drives of those being represented become more homogenised. Ideally in a truly diverse EU, no sides would ever form as every representative should be independently pushing the agenda of the people they represent.

    Claiming we can't impact on European laws through a general elections is both a lie and disingenuous at the same time (a rare accomplishment- well done). You know full well that all levels of the European government are either decided upon by the governments the population have voted in, or via MEP's that we vote for separately, so we absolutely can vote for representatives based on our like or dislike of European laws.

    You not agreeing with most representatives is not the same as you not being represented. Why do you think people like Farage end up as MEP's? He and others like him are the result of opposition to integration being represented within the EU government.
    I understand the model of PR democracy mate I studied it at university. I just don't think it's a good and effective one because it doesn't create adversarial government.

  2. #25882
    Donor Rami's Avatar
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    This is actually interesting because your thinking is very representative of the average anti-EU voter. There's a high level perceived threat but no real substance to the argument. You really need to dig deep on these rather imprtant issues, but I guess people are too busy just doing general life stuff and it's easier to regurgitate what your <insert personal paper/channel/person> says. Anyway lunch time, I'm going to consider myself 47% through kicking your arguments down.

  3. #25883
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    This is actually interesting because your thinking is very representative of the average anti-EU voter. There's a high level perceived threat but no real substance to the argument. You really need to dig deep on these rather imprtant issues, but I guess people are too busy just doing general life stuff and it's easier to regurgitate what your <insert personal paper/channel/person> says. Anyway lunch time, I'm going to consider myself 47% through kicking your arguments down.
    There's plenty of substance. Read the many huge volumes written on the subject over the years. I'd highly advise watching Peter Hitchens' documentary on the subject, This Sceptic Isle.

  4. #25884
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    Commentary =/= analysis
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  5. #25885
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    something something good will hunting bar scene monologue

  6. #25886
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoirAvlaa View Post
    something something good will hunting bar scene monologue
    BAAAAAAWston
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  7. #25887

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    This is actually interesting because your thinking is very representative of the average anti-EU voter. There's a high level perceived threat but no real substance to the argument. You really need to dig deep on these rather imprtant issues, but I guess people are too busy just doing general life stuff and it's easier to regurgitate what your <insert personal paper/channel/person> says. Anyway lunch time, I'm going to consider myself 47% through kicking your arguments down.
    There's plenty of substance. Read the many huge volumes written on the subject over the years. I'd highly advise watching Peter Hitchens' documentary on the subject, This Sceptic Isle.
    Is your new job working pr for that shite, are you paid for it, or do you keep shilling him for sexual favours or sth?

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

  8. #25888
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    This is actually interesting because your thinking is very representative of the average anti-EU voter. There's a high level perceived threat but no real substance to the argument. You really need to dig deep on these rather imprtant issues, but I guess people are too busy just doing general life stuff and it's easier to regurgitate what your <insert personal paper/channel/person> says. Anyway lunch time, I'm going to consider myself 47% through kicking your arguments down.
    There's plenty of substance. Read the many huge volumes written on the subject over the years. I'd highly advise watching Peter Hitchens' documentary on the subject, This Sceptic Isle.
    Is your new job working pr for that shite, are you paid for it, or do you keep shilling him for sexual favours or sth?

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
    Or I just thought it was a good documentary?

  9. #25889
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    This is actually interesting because your thinking is very representative of the average anti-EU voter. There's a high level perceived threat but no real substance to the argument. You really need to dig deep on these rather imprtant issues, but I guess people are too busy just doing general life stuff and it's easier to regurgitate what your <insert personal paper/channel/person> says. Anyway lunch time, I'm going to consider myself 47% through kicking your arguments down.
    There's plenty of substance. Read the many huge volumes written on the subject over the years. I'd highly advise watching Peter Hitchens' documentary on the subject, This Sceptic Isle.
    Yup, you're literally like me when I was 12.

  10. #25890
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    This is actually interesting because your thinking is very representative of the average anti-EU voter. There's a high level perceived threat but no real substance to the argument. You really need to dig deep on these rather imprtant issues, but I guess people are too busy just doing general life stuff and it's easier to regurgitate what your <insert personal paper/channel/person> says. Anyway lunch time, I'm going to consider myself 47% through kicking your arguments down.
    There's plenty of substance. Read the many huge volumes written on the subject over the years. I'd highly advise watching Peter Hitchens' documentary on the subject, This Sceptic Isle.
    Yup, you're literally like me when I was 12.
    I dunno mate, did you have MtF treatment propagandised to you and your parents in school when you were 12?

  11. #25891
    Donor Rami's Avatar
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    @Smuggo, you mean https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/b...w-it-q530bkq2d ? This comment piece does have those numbers, but the whole article is about how doing a 'free trade' deal with the EU post-brexit will be nowhere close to equivalence of what you have now. Your whole quote of 'most business choose to pay the tarrifs instead' is specific about free trade deals, not even UK specific, and only applies to small companies.

    The gist of that article is that trade will be hit by brexit, irrespective of any free trade deal. As in, it's counter your own argument.

    Next time link your sources maybe.

  12. #25892
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoirAvlaa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rufuske View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    This is actually interesting because your thinking is very representative of the average anti-EU voter. There's a high level perceived threat but no real substance to the argument. You really need to dig deep on these rather imprtant issues, but I guess people are too busy just doing general life stuff and it's easier to regurgitate what your <insert personal paper/channel/person> says. Anyway lunch time, I'm going to consider myself 47% through kicking your arguments down.
    There's plenty of substance. Read the many huge volumes written on the subject over the years. I'd highly advise watching Peter Hitchens' documentary on the subject, This Sceptic Isle.
    Yup, you're literally like me when I was 12.
    I dunno mate, did you have MtF treatment propagandised to you and your parents in school when you were 12?
    No but I read so much my mum wanted to ban me from going to library and I spent every social interaction pointing out how people are wrong no matter the subject. I was a fun child to be around.

  13. #25893
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoirAvlaa View Post
    I dunno mate, did you have MtF treatment propagandised to you and your parents in school when you were 12?
    Did you just assume his family life?!?!

    I'll have you know I was brought up in a non-gender, trans-parental commune where the relationship between parent and child was considered a non-justifiable class relation and therefore structurally violent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  14. #25894
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    @Smuggo, you mean https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/b...w-it-q530bkq2d ? This comment piece does have those numbers, but the whole article is about how doing a 'free trade' deal with the EU post-brexit will be nowhere close to equivalence of what you have now. Your whole quote of 'most business choose to pay the tarrifs instead' is specific about free trade deals, not even UK specific, and only applies to small companies.

    The gist of that article is that trade will be hit by brexit, irrespective of any free trade deal. As in, it's counter your own argument.

    Next time link your sources maybe.
    Yes but your point was that firms will be forced to adopt the regulations which makes them effectively law. But I'm pointing out that actually they don't need to and in many cases won't.

    Remember your original point next time.

  15. #25895
    Donor Rami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    @Smuggo, you mean https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/b...w-it-q530bkq2d ? This comment piece does have those numbers, but the whole article is about how doing a 'free trade' deal with the EU post-brexit will be nowhere close to equivalence of what you have now. Your whole quote of 'most business choose to pay the tarrifs instead' is specific about free trade deals, not even UK specific, and only applies to small companies.

    The gist of that article is that trade will be hit by brexit, irrespective of any free trade deal. As in, it's counter your own argument.

    Next time link your sources maybe.
    Yes but your point was that firms will be forced to adopt the regulations which makes them effectively law. But I'm pointing out that actually they don't need to and in many cases won't.

    Remember your original point next time.
    That's only in case of a free trade deal? WTO rules means you pay the tarriffs. In terms of product regulations, you always follow the import country's regulations of you simply don't get to import. Since the EU market is considerably larger than the UK market, guess who will set the terms of product regulations.

  16. #25896
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    Re: You can't vote for a government with the power to repeal EU laws.

    Let's rephrase that: you can't vote for a government with the power to repeal laws its legislature passed.

    Here's the thing: no such government exists in the west.

    Only legislatures can pass and repeal laws. Governments are called the executive power because they execute laws.

    Your government can't repeal laws either. Only the House of Commons can together with the House of Lords. At most your high court can declare a law illegal, but that isn't a repeal either.

    You can however (until you leave) vote for the EU Parliament.
    In my humble opinion however I think that if only 34.2% of the eligible voters actually cared to vote, then you have very little right to bitch about the result.

    Tapapapatalk
    nevar forget

  17. #25897

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    Interesting read, makes you think, etc - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/lo...-a8021501.html

  18. #25898
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodj Blake View Post
    Interesting read, makes you think, etc - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/lo...-a8021501.html
    Monetarism is dead, long live monetarism!
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  19. #25899

  20. #25900
    big diiiiiiiiick Movember 2012Donor Dark Flare's Avatar
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    poors have bad taste nbs
    Quote Originally Posted by Amantus
    whats tyhe appear of a shnitifuck cu nt eve onlio9ne corpotraTION DICKOLHEAD FUCKIN AS

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