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Thread: (UK EURO WAFFLE) Limey Civil War

  1. #25861
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    This is terrible trolling now.

    Unless you've recently had a stroke and dropped 40 IQ points.
    Why because I no longer support your neo marxist view of the world? You could be polite and civil to me as I have been to you but instead you insult me and don't argue your own corner beyond regurgitating some Marx on rare occasions.

  2. #25862
    Donor Rami's Avatar
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    Setting aside heritage, in the modern world we can all accept that liberty and freedom (speech, expression, whatever) are important values. What makes the EU against these values? How are they removing them from the UK by staying in the EU?

  3. #25863

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    Setting aside heritage, in the modern world we can all accept that liberty and freedom (speech, expression, whatever) are important values. What makes the EU against these values? How are they removing them from the UK by staying in the EU?
    I've been waiting to have my culture repressed by the Germans, but it still hasn't happened.

    It's very inefficient of them.

  4. #25864
    big diiiiiiiiick Movember 2012Donor Dark Flare's Avatar
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    has any country full of right wangers shouting "muh culture" actually ever been in danger of losing its culture to start with
    Quote Originally Posted by Amantus
    whats tyhe appear of a shnitifuck cu nt eve onlio9ne corpotraTION DICKOLHEAD FUCKIN AS

  5. #25865
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    Setting aside heritage, in the modern world we can all accept that liberty and freedom (speech, expression, whatever) are important values. What makes the EU against these values? How are they removing them from the UK by staying in the EU?
    Because we can't elect its government and nor can we throw out one we don't like. It's government lacks an opposition so it is not democratic and thus not conducive to British ideals.

  6. #25866
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    This is terrible trolling now.

    Unless you've recently had a stroke and dropped 40 IQ points.
    Why because I no longer support your neo marxist view of the world? You could be polite and civil to me as I have been to you but instead you insult me and don't argue your own corner beyond regurgitating some Marx on rare occasions.
    Come on now, you were never really a marxist in any form. You just posted random soviet memes and complained about the working culture of the UK.

    You're making bizarre appeals to tradition, with apparently no awareness of how completely irrelevant they are.

    You start talking about the magna carta as if it has any sort of bearing on the public consciousness.

    You don't even engage with the majority of counter arguments in replies. You cherry pick offhand remarks or statements clearly made in jest and ignore pretty much any post people put some effort into, and you wonder why people stop bothering taking you seriously?
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Mason
    It is absurd that we are capable of witnessing a 40,000 year old system of gender oppression begin to dissolve before our eyes yet still see the abolition of a 200 year old economic system as an unrealistic utopia.

  7. #25867
    מלך יהודים Zeekar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    This is terrible trolling now.

    Unless you've recently had a stroke and dropped 40 IQ points.
    He's in the same place as rak now. I just scroll over his posts because there is nothing of value there.


    

  8. #25868
    rufuske's Avatar
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    Here are some fun facts:
    - google etymology of word infantry, your lords used children as fodder
    - look up child labour, especially in coal mines during victorian era - it's one of the reasons Marx and Engels wrote Keckers' favourite literature
    - wanna guess whom Hitler pilfered concentration camp idea from? they just added some trademark ~german efficiency~ to it

    I mean it's ok to romanticize your past, everyone does it but you're being extremly intelectually lazy. And it's double wrong when you use it as an excuse to shit on something that has brought to whole Europe peace and prosperity for period it has never seen before. Ofc it's not perfect but maybe more productive thing would be to try fix those things?

  9. #25869
    Donor Rami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    Setting aside heritage, in the modern world we can all accept that liberty and freedom (speech, expression, whatever) are important values. What makes the EU against these values? How are they removing them from the UK by staying in the EU?
    Because we can't elect its government and nor can we throw out one we don't like. It's government lacks an opposition so it is not democratic and thus not conducive to British ideals.
    There's 3 (maybe 4) main components:

    - Parliament: directly elected every 5 years
    - Council/EU Council: appointment by member state representatives (whom in turn are nationally elected)
    - The Commission: President appointed by member state representatives + 27 (one form each member) through majority election

    So from top to bottom there is direct election by EU citizens, to 1 layer of abstraction, to 2 layers of abstraction. That being said, the representatives are nationally elected so there is always a direct line of accountability back to national citizens.

    Your point is very broad, and I can't interpret it in a way that stacks up against the evidence. So for the sake of healthy debate, care to elaborate?

  10. #25870
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    This is terrible trolling now.

    Unless you've recently had a stroke and dropped 40 IQ points.
    Why because I no longer support your neo marxist view of the world? You could be polite and civil to me as I have been to you but instead you insult me and don't argue your own corner beyond regurgitating some Marx on rare occasions.
    Come on now, you were never really a marxist in any form. You just posted random soviet memes and complained about the working culture of the UK.

    You're making bizarre appeals to tradition, with apparently no awareness of how completely irrelevant they are.

    You start talking about the magna carta as if it has any sort of bearing on the public consciousness.

    You don't even engage with the majority of counter arguments in replies. You cherry pick offhand remarks or statements clearly made in jest and ignore pretty much any post people put some effort into, and you wonder why people stop bothering taking you seriously?
    This is untrue I engage with as many points as I can but mostly just get called names by the vulgar posters on this forum. I'm usually posting on my phone which makes it difficult to make long responses but I try and address what I can. You cherry pick as much as I do btw.

  11. #25871
    big diiiiiiiiick Movember 2012Donor Dark Flare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keckers View Post
    This is terrible trolling now.

    Unless you've recently had a stroke and dropped 40 IQ points.
    Why because I no longer support your neo marxist view of the world? You could be polite and civil to me as I have been to you but instead you insult me and don't argue your own corner beyond regurgitating some Marx on rare occasions.
    Come on now, you were never really a marxist in any form. You just posted random soviet memes and complained about the working culture of the UK.

    You're making bizarre appeals to tradition, with apparently no awareness of how completely irrelevant they are.

    You start talking about the magna carta as if it has any sort of bearing on the public consciousness.

    You don't even engage with the majority of counter arguments in replies. You cherry pick offhand remarks or statements clearly made in jest and ignore pretty much any post people put some effort into, and you wonder why people stop bothering taking you seriously?
    This is untrue I engage with as many points as I can but mostly just get called names by the vulgar posters on this forum. I'm usually posting on my phone which makes it difficult to make long responses but I try and address what I can. You cherry pick as much as I do btw.
    You literally just cherrypicked the last line of his post. mfw.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amantus
    whats tyhe appear of a shnitifuck cu nt eve onlio9ne corpotraTION DICKOLHEAD FUCKIN AS

  12. #25872
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    Setting aside heritage, in the modern world we can all accept that liberty and freedom (speech, expression, whatever) are important values. What makes the EU against these values? How are they removing them from the UK by staying in the EU?
    Because we can't elect its government and nor can we throw out one we don't like. It's government lacks an opposition so it is not democratic and thus not conducive to British ideals.
    There's 3 (maybe 4) main components:

    - Parliament: directly elected every 5 years
    - Council/EU Council: appointment by member state representatives (whom in turn are nationally elected)
    - The Commission: President appointed by member state representatives + 27 (one form each member) through majority election

    So from top to bottom there is direct election by EU citizens, to 1 layer of abstraction, to 2 layers of abstraction. That being said, the representatives are nationally elected so there is always a direct line of accountability back to national citizens.

    Your point is very broad, and I can't interpret it in a way that stacks up against the evidence. So for the sake of healthy debate, care to elaborate?
    Because the EU has no opposition there is essentially no significant group making a case against the integration agenda. This means the EU only moves in one direction. More importantly if the EU does things the British public don't like, we cannot vote against it in a general election because EU law is decided above that level. It is this conflict in our right to rule ourselves and the right to change direction that troubles me.

  13. #25873
    Donor Rami's Avatar
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    So far, your only argument has been a variant of 'no true Scotsman' on the basis of some vaguely defined British ideals. Between the lines, it looks like you're balking at the reduction of sovereignty that comes with being part of a larger cohesive political structure.

    The issue here is that such a reduction in sovereignty will happen due to the economical ties alone, due to the need for industry to have streamlined regulations and market access. Governments still follow the purse strings, and whether or not the UK is in the EU they will feel the pressure on their ability to make independent decisions as a nation irrespective. The major difference will be that they will need to approach any dialogue about economic and political matters from an outsider perspective, vastly diminishing your influence.

    The irony about leaving the EU to try and regain some type of absolute national sovereignty is that it will reduce your overall influence in the global spectrum. Britain, just like any developed nation, is unable to extrictate itself from the socio-economical web that now exists. You're literally shooting yourself in the foot if this is why you are doing it.

    Edit: yep, all about sovereignty which is a red herring tbh, you won't gain what you seek.
    Last edited by Rami; November 14 2017 at 12:45:09 PM.

  14. #25874

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    Setting aside heritage, in the modern world we can all accept that liberty and freedom (speech, expression, whatever) are important values. What makes the EU against these values? How are they removing them from the UK by staying in the EU?
    Because we can't elect its government and nor can we throw out one we don't like. It's government lacks an opposition so it is not democratic and thus not conducive to British ideals.
    There's 3 (maybe 4) main components:

    - Parliament: directly elected every 5 years
    - Council/EU Council: appointment by member state representatives (whom in turn are nationally elected)
    - The Commission: President appointed by member state representatives + 27 (one form each member) through majority election

    So from top to bottom there is direct election by EU citizens, to 1 layer of abstraction, to 2 layers of abstraction. That being said, the representatives are nationally elected so there is always a direct line of accountability back to national citizens.

    Your point is very broad, and I can't interpret it in a way that stacks up against the evidence. So for the sake of healthy debate, care to elaborate?
    Because the EU has no opposition there is essentially no significant group making a case against the integration agenda. This means the EU only moves in one direction. More importantly if the EU does things the British public don't like, we cannot vote against it in a general election because EU law is decided above that level. It is this conflict in our right to rule ourselves and the right to change direction that troubles me.
    You cannot vote out your lords and your queen either.

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

  15. #25875
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    So national parliaments are undemocratic as the county councils cannot vote against the decisions in the national parliaments that the county councils don't like? I mean, it is a conflict between the counties right to rule themselves and change direction that differs from that of the undemocratic national assembly that dictates policy?

    Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaît point. - Blaise Pascal, Pensées, 277

  16. #25876
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isyel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    Setting aside heritage, in the modern world we can all accept that liberty and freedom (speech, expression, whatever) are important values. What makes the EU against these values? How are they removing them from the UK by staying in the EU?
    Because we can't elect its government and nor can we throw out one we don't like. It's government lacks an opposition so it is not democratic and thus not conducive to British ideals.
    There's 3 (maybe 4) main components:

    - Parliament: directly elected every 5 years
    - Council/EU Council: appointment by member state representatives (whom in turn are nationally elected)
    - The Commission: President appointed by member state representatives + 27 (one form each member) through majority election

    So from top to bottom there is direct election by EU citizens, to 1 layer of abstraction, to 2 layers of abstraction. That being said, the representatives are nationally elected so there is always a direct line of accountability back to national citizens.

    Your point is very broad, and I can't interpret it in a way that stacks up against the evidence. So for the sake of healthy debate, care to elaborate?
    Because the EU has no opposition there is essentially no significant group making a case against the integration agenda. This means the EU only moves in one direction. More importantly if the EU does things the British public don't like, we cannot vote against it in a general election because EU law is decided above that level. It is this conflict in our right to rule ourselves and the right to change direction that troubles me.
    You cannot vote out your lords and your queen either.

    Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
    And they have significantly less influence than the commons.

  17. #25877
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    So far, your only argument has been a variant of 'no true Scotsman' on the basis of some vaguely defined British ideals. Between the lines, it looks like you're balking at the reduction of sovereignty that comes with being part of a larger cohesive political structure.

    The issue here is that such a reduction in sovereignty will happen due to the economical ties alone, due to the need for industry to have streamlined regulations and market access. Governments still follow the purse strings, and whether or not the UK is in the EU they will feel the pressure on their ability to make independent decisions as a nation irrespective. The major difference will be that they will need to approach any dialogue about economic and political matters from an outsider perspective, vastly diminishing your influence.

    The irony about leaving the EU to try and regain some type of absolute national sovereignty is that it will reduce your overall influence in the global spectrum. Britain, just like any developed nation, is unable to extrictate itself from the socio-economical web that now exists. You're literally shooting yourself in the foot if this is why you are doing it.

    Edit: yep, all about sovereignty which is a red herring tbh, you won't gain what you seek.
    Actually for low tariff items generally businesses find it better to pay the tariff instead of complying with the regulations so you can trade without adopting the regulations.

  18. #25878

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    Setting aside heritage, in the modern world we can all accept that liberty and freedom (speech, expression, whatever) are important values. What makes the EU against these values? How are they removing them from the UK by staying in the EU?
    Because we can't elect its government and nor can we throw out one we don't like. It's government lacks an opposition so it is not democratic and thus not conducive to British ideals.
    There's 3 (maybe 4) main components:

    - Parliament: directly elected every 5 years
    - Council/EU Council: appointment by member state representatives (whom in turn are nationally elected)
    - The Commission: President appointed by member state representatives + 27 (one form each member) through majority election

    So from top to bottom there is direct election by EU citizens, to 1 layer of abstraction, to 2 layers of abstraction. That being said, the representatives are nationally elected so there is always a direct line of accountability back to national citizens.

    Your point is very broad, and I can't interpret it in a way that stacks up against the evidence. So for the sake of healthy debate, care to elaborate?
    Because the EU has no opposition there is essentially no significant group making a case against the integration agenda. This means the EU only moves in one direction. More importantly if the EU does things the British public don't like, we cannot vote against it in a general election because EU law is decided above that level. It is this conflict in our right to rule ourselves and the right to change direction that troubles me.
    You realise that a representative system of government doesn't require an opposition? The whole concept of "sides" and "political parties" and even "an opposition" is something that they evolve over time as the needs and drives of those being represented become more homogenised. Ideally in a truly diverse EU, no sides would ever form as every representative should be independently pushing the agenda of the people they represent.

    Claiming we can't impact on European laws through a general elections is both a lie and disingenuous at the same time (a rare accomplishment- well done). You know full well that all levels of the European government are either decided upon by the governments the population have voted in, or via MEP's that we vote for separately, so we absolutely can vote for representatives based on our like or dislike of European laws.

    You not agreeing with most representatives is not the same as you not being represented. Why do you think people like Farage end up as MEP's? He and others like him are the result of opposition to integration being represented within the EU government.

  19. #25879
    Donor Rami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    So far, your only argument has been a variant of 'no true Scotsman' on the basis of some vaguely defined British ideals. Between the lines, it looks like you're balking at the reduction of sovereignty that comes with being part of a larger cohesive political structure.

    The issue here is that such a reduction in sovereignty will happen due to the economical ties alone, due to the need for industry to have streamlined regulations and market access. Governments still follow the purse strings, and whether or not the UK is in the EU they will feel the pressure on their ability to make independent decisions as a nation irrespective. The major difference will be that they will need to approach any dialogue about economic and political matters from an outsider perspective, vastly diminishing your influence.

    The irony about leaving the EU to try and regain some type of absolute national sovereignty is that it will reduce your overall influence in the global spectrum. Britain, just like any developed nation, is unable to extrictate itself from the socio-economical web that now exists. You're literally shooting yourself in the foot if this is why you are doing it.

    Edit: yep, all about sovereignty which is a red herring tbh, you won't gain what you seek.
    Actually for low tariff items generally businesses find it better to pay the tariff instead of complying with the regulations so you can trade without adopting the regulations.
    Sources? What scope across the economy? In healthcare and finance alone, two major sectors for you, you either follow the regulations or you do shit double (which you don't do as it is more expensive).

  20. #25880
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Contemporary Poster View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rami View Post
    So far, your only argument has been a variant of 'no true Scotsman' on the basis of some vaguely defined British ideals. Between the lines, it looks like you're balking at the reduction of sovereignty that comes with being part of a larger cohesive political structure.

    The issue here is that such a reduction in sovereignty will happen due to the economical ties alone, due to the need for industry to have streamlined regulations and market access. Governments still follow the purse strings, and whether or not the UK is in the EU they will feel the pressure on their ability to make independent decisions as a nation irrespective. The major difference will be that they will need to approach any dialogue about economic and political matters from an outsider perspective, vastly diminishing your influence.

    The irony about leaving the EU to try and regain some type of absolute national sovereignty is that it will reduce your overall influence in the global spectrum. Britain, just like any developed nation, is unable to extrictate itself from the socio-economical web that now exists. You're literally shooting yourself in the foot if this is why you are doing it.

    Edit: yep, all about sovereignty which is a red herring tbh, you won't gain what you seek.
    Actually for low tariff items generally businesses find it better to pay the tariff instead of complying with the regulations so you can trade without adopting the regulations.
    Sources? What scope across the economy? In healthcare and finance alone, two major sectors for you, you either follow the regulations or you do shit double (which you don't do as it is more expensive).
    It's in today's Times. Big tariffs to the EU are on food cars and clothing. But the average is only 4.5% with many lower than that.

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